I've read with interest the comments of this thread and wanted to make a quick comment myself.
I've had the Merlin TSM-mmi for a little over a month now and I'm very pleased with how wonderful they sound. I wanted to mention this because if you take a look at my system profile you'll find that they are in a set up that is far from optimal.
I'm using them with budget NAD equipment, the TSMs are sitting on top of my Klipsch KG4 speakers, there is a big bay window on one side of the room, the room has openings on either end of it and it rings like a bell. But the Merlins sound fantastic and will only get better as the room and equipment get better.
I just wanted to post this in case someone might be wondering if they have the "right stuff" to give Merlin speakers a try.
Cheers,
Scott |
I agree 100%. The first time I heard the Merlins it was with a Creek amp that was OLD. Right off the bat I knew they were something special and I had barely any idea of what Merlin was at that point.
I was close to replacing my Magnepan 1.6's with Revel M22's or one of the Dynaudio monitors. Now I have the Merlins on order and I can't wait.
Rob |
It's late and I haven't read all the posts. If I'm repeating something already said, please forgive me. Bobby's cabinet material has changed twice since the VSM's inception(if I'm correct). The driver's are not the same, nor is the length of the port or internal wiring.
The removal of lead was not a tweak, but a necessity to be in compliance with ROHS regulations. If it's removal resulted in better sound, it should be seen as a good thing.
Aside from the Watt 3/2, WP8 and Sasha, Wilson's speaker's have been the same with each model sounding slightly different from it's predecessor. Like identical siblings, the VSM may look the same on the outside, but are totally different on the inside. |
stalwar, i have compared both myself. the au24e sounds like it has a wider bandwidth and more relaxed presence range. i like it more. the au24 is more present and not as extended in the extremes. the 24 sounds better on older merlins and the 24e on newer versions.
jmtc.
bobby |
robbob, of the three you mentioned anti may be your preference.
try and stay with copper bundled into a large gauge of about 9. be sure the strands are tiny. what we are trying to do is to maintain a 6 gauge difference between the jumpers which are 15 and speaker wire.
ok?
:-)
b |
alot of great and appreciated posts again.
robbob, turboglo, samac and tab110s thank you all.
b |
I replaced Cardas GR with Acoustic Zen (Satori, Matrix Ref II). Most effective is speaker cable, bass goes up a notch. |
Correction: replacing AZ with CGR - not another way around - Sorry |
but what of the focus, layering and overall natural quality?
bobby |
9rw, you are right the John Dunlavy knew ALOT about speaker design and some really love his speakers. He also basically said that those that can here differences between speaker cables are hallucinating (other than the impact of guage). That essay he wrote wasn't popular with cable manufacturers. Do you agree with him? You can Google his essay on "differences" between cable. quite interesting.
I, by the way, have heard improvement through Bobby's incremtal improvements. Perfecting the basic design over years is on reason the speaker is so well "sorted out" and for many owners, in some ways, the best speaker ever made. Which is not the same as saying it will be everyone's favourite speaker. But it is a speaker that needs to be taken seriously when looking for the best sound in the home. |
Pubul57: I notice that you have all of the prescribed components for the Merlins, affirming my position.
As for Dunlavy's belief about speaker cables, I read that essay many years ago. I'd have to read it again to be sure of his criteria, but I've been pretty clear about what I have found to be true. Cables can make a big difference, hence the need for Cardas -- or similar cables -- with Merlin.
If you're happy with your system, that's what matters most, cost be damned. |
9rw, I have used CAT, Pass, Quicksilver, Lamm, ARC, Placette, and a few other pre/amp combos with the Merlins. The reason I have what I have is they work well with the Merlins, that being said OTLs will work incredibly well with any speaker that is tube friendly, which the Merlin is. With all the amps I have tried, nothing beast OTLs to me, and the reason Merlin is often recommended with Joule, is the fact that it happens to be an OTL, so it does not shock that Bobby would go that way, though he liked the CAT gear too. That amp/speaker interface is so important to get right, perhaps the most important part of getting a system right that I think you would have to be crazy to not take advice from a speaker designer that suggests what he thinks will work best. I think there is some truth to the perception that some may fear that gear not on "Bobby's Approved List" might not work well. That should be nipped in the bud, as the speakers certainly work well with any of the tube amps I have used, and the Pass XA30.5 as well. But there is a tendency to believe that if Bobby does not mention a particular amp or cable then it won't get the best from the speakers, that can get dangerous. Probably why most manufacturers will stay away from recommend to specically a particular amp, power cord, tube, etc for their speakers. For the most part Bobby has chosen well and I think most folks have been happy with his recommendations for accompanying products. If you don't want to experiment too much and possibly waste alot of money, Bobby's recommendations seem to be right on the money (for his speakers). |
Call the Cable Co. and have them send you a full set of Cardas GR and evaluate them. I have Bobby's full receipe with the Fila integrated and it is the best all around system I've owned. I've had Soundlabs, Maggies, Acoustats, Quadratures and Martin Logans. Bobby's system has an organic natural quality that I've never heard before and I'm basically a planar/electrostatic guy. Pretty damn hard to beat in my opinion. |
Be sure you are using the Cardas Golden Ref or one of the other more transparent Cardas line. The Cross line are slightly warmer but also slower and more opaque. I like Cross mainly with lower priced transistor gear that is a bit unrefined on the top end. |
art, agreed and a perfect way to decribe it.
b@m |
Using all the cardas GR cables (Interconnect, speaker and power cables) SURELY spoils the sound. IMHO use a silver cable between BAM and preamp/integrated (i used siltech classic annversary 330i)...I was just about to sell Merlins before i tried this.....now merlins will stay for ever in my main listening room... IMO do not underestemate sound of merlins after using all Cardas GR cables.... Merlins are one of the very very best speakers available....do not spoil the sound with all Cardas GR cables... and later complaint the sound of merlins and sell it.... i know people who have done that
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Masilu, we must choose what we like and all our preferences are different and we are entitled them - no doubt. But it seems to me that Bobby has received too many best in show, or ten best in show acknowledgments with the Cardas GR array to suggest that it "surely spoils the sound" - though it may for you. Not to say say the GRs will be "best" for everyone, but Bobby seems to think it does not ruin the sound of his speakers. |
Agreed with masilo, all cardas GR",takes alot out this speakers, had all cardas in my set up, just made a small speaker sound big, replaced one of the cardas, from Bam to preamp, Huge diference, better focus, bigger stage, and richer sound, immaging, out of this world,
Silk Worm+, and Omega MIcro 900 on the transport, was the icing on the cake, was thinking about selling speakers, or purchase a new Amp, I'm set now, in an all tube set up, all cardas, kills the sound of this speakers,
if just one good cable where used at the Shows,
probably would won 90 best of show, intead of 70,
My humble oppinion:
Cheers: |
m and j, the wire "you" prefer with "your" vsm speakers will reflect the version of the vsm used, the set up, the room, the associated electronics and "your" personal taste. when i make a recommendation it reflects my choice in regards to the above and the speakers ability to properly play a very high percentage of my music collection. this is not an absolute for everyone.
:-)
i am glad you are so happy and that the wire change you made showed you the potential of the speakers.
thank you.
best regards, bobby |
I followed Bobby's advice and bought the Cardas for my TSM-mme's. I did get better sound, that amazing soundstage got a bit better as well. The Cardas is quite nice. I am using Cardas Cross. At some point I will think about a Cardas upgrade, but first need to save for the new TSM's. |
Juancgenao
I am happy to see somebody who felt the same way in audiogon...
I use AA prestige SACD signature, ARS Fila , Merlin VSM mme, all Cardas GR except one interconnect, Equi=Tech 2q....
At one point i thought i change Fila and go for atma sphere..pre power...who wants that now...the beauty of fila also goes off with all cardas GR...
just one pair SILTECH 25TH CLASSIC ANVERSARY 770i interconnects will convert FILA to a extreme hi end amp too, with merlin set up...
cardas GR is good .. i wont change my other Cardas GR cables...
i think Cardas GR shows its full potential with merlins...but not vise versa
|
Masilu, did you actually hear Atma pre/amp combo with Merlin? The answer to that question ("who wants...") might be answered when having both in that setup; which of course does not mean that the Fila/Merlin combo is not fantastic, it is, but I doubt you would choose it over the Atma-sphere combo, I have had several audiophile visitors listening to that very comparison (Fila versus Atma), not one person had to think about it very long, other than the fact the Atma-combo was considerably more $$$. Don't know what to say about the Cardas GR, we all hear what we hear, so what argument can be made? |
m, how old is your fila amp?
what is the serial number?
if it is an older one and has lead in it, that would explain why you like the silver cables in one spot.
as i said, it has a lot to do with the equipment and set up used. and your mme's are softer sounding than the mxe or mx-r. so that would be another reason you "may" like the silver cable more in one spot.
best, b |
Pubul... you may be right regarding Atma..... sorry... i was too excited with those cables....( i am still excited..)
Bobby My merlins...BAM ...and Fila are lead free.....may be MMe are softer sounding and thats the reason i like siltech cables |
I think the Fila/Merlin combo is world-class and a no-brainer recommendation for a relatively low-cost SOTA system. Certainly a get-off-the-merry-go-round system. I miss the Fila, but as you can see, I have a bit too much equipment to have kept it. |
Bobbyalkovic - When I got my Ayre equipment...V1xe amp, K1xe preamp, and C5xemp Silver disc player, I was advised by Ayre itself that Ayre/Cardas cables were the best, so I completely wired the system with the Ayre cables. The cables were in for about 7 or 8 months when a friend brought over a balanced Purist Anniversary interconnect. The difference was screamable. When I went to my dealer, he insisted Cardas was right, and gave me every Cardas balanced interconnect and speaker cable he had to try. They all sounded similarly bad. As I mentioned before, it closed in the sound, became grainy, brown in character, etc. Every cable I substituted sounded better. The best cables by far was Audioquest Sky/Everest and AntiCables. They sounded similar, but I nor anyone I asked could say which ones sounded better, so I did the system in Anti-Cables. I am using Vandersteen 5A speakers, and the sound is wonderful. I would guess that Cardas can sound good in the right system, but mine wasn't right for Cardas. The very worst cable - the ones that ruined the sound completely were the Cardas power cords. |
stingreen, your thoughts prove my point.
audioquest is recommended for vandies and anti's have a similar way about them. no wonder you liked them too.
i would not recommend cardas for a vandy system no matter what electronics were being used.
always use the right tool for the right job.
b |
Stringreen: I had a similar experience. I have great respect for George and Colleen Cardas, but after I got rid of my Merlin speakers and bought Dunlavys I had no idea how good they were until I got some different cables. Apparently the Cardas (Golden Cross) cables act as a required filter for the Merlins -- or at least the VSM SE. But experiences vary. |
s, golden cross is a softer sounding cable that is recommended for ss or brighter speakers. the vsm se was designed with se triodes and in certain systems could be a little bright and lean. the golden cross had a nice synergy with the early vsm. later vsms were designed with transformer coupled valve amps, otls and ss so they sound a lot fuller, clearer, smoother and expansive. imho, they have really come into there own. now they work extremely well with golden presence, golden ref and are the best with the new cardas clear.
i used golden ref and now the clear to design all of my speakers.
nice to hear from you. :-)
best, b |
Interesting, John Dunlavy would proabably have suggested that all cables basically sound the same, he proabably would have recommended large guage zipcord. |
paul, i knew john and he was not a cable guy that is for sure. i said it then and i'll say it now, "each to his own". :-)
how is the master bam and the master rc's?
should be settled by now.
b |
The speakers have never sounded better with the MasterBAM and RCs in place - I can't imagine that every SuperBam owner would not think the upgrade well worth it; just one more step in the full realization of the VSM's evolution. |
I can provide some input from personal experience. I had the exact same feeling about the Cardas cables as you do. I argued with Bobby P about it. I was a big JPS fan for a long time. I never heard Cardas sound worth a crap on any system I ever had and never understood why anyone liked them. Had them here many times from the Cable Co. to try and always sent them back unimpressed.
When I got my Merlin VSM lead free speakers from Bobby and a Fila integrated along with the Audio Aero Capitole Reference I finally gave in. I tried the latest JPS and the Cardas GR and had to agree with Bobby that there is a synergy there that can not be denied. They beat the pants off the JPS. I was surprised and shocked. That was enough to convince me and I set out to buy used Cardas GR for the entire system. Power cords, interconnects, speaker cables.
I would not have believed it if I had not heard it myself because it went against everything I had experienced in the past. I'm a planar/electrostatic guy but Bobby P has taken some concepts in which he strongly believes and contined to refine and improve them for years.
Everything is relative but Bobby's "prescription systems" are very hard to beat in my view. They have an organic realism that I have never heard before that is natural and life like. Just get some loaner Cardas from the Cable Co. and listen and draw your own conclusions. I did not want to believe this until I heard it myself. |
I thought that the silver interconnects that my fried made for me sounded better than the Cardas Golden Reference. They initially sounded cleaner and much clearer. However, after a while it became apparent that they sounded a bit pinched in the mids. I was always drawn back to the Cardas. They sound more like real music to me. |
Hi all,
I used to own CGR IC, Speakers, PC - After try out piece by piece, I switch all IC/speaker cables to Au24 (not e version).
Good match with my VSM-MXe, for much less money and less "Cardas warm characteristic".
Still wait for green light from Bobby to send in for Master BAM upgrade :-) |
I cannot imagine not being happy with either the Cardas or the Audience. If Bobby recommends them, you know they are going to work well. The Cardas "warmth" works wonderfully well with my neutral sounding OTLs and Music Reference RM10s. Bobby has never led me astray, and the Master BAM is a real uograde, not just another product...:) |
cold forging will take away the warmth in the cardas.
especially the newer versions. au24e is a significant improvment over the 24.
b |
Bobby,
GR cold forged vs.Clear. How big of a difference? |
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t, the cold forged gr is quite a bit clearer and more balanced but the clear still sounds clearer, fuller and more life like. more continuous too but if you do not have the $, this is the way to go.
one is fantastic and the other exceptional.
i think the improvement is profound in a good system.
b |
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no they are soldered with lead free tri eutectic i believe.
b |
I belong to a guitar forum and a member there sez lead-free solder is responsible for the failure of some cell towers. |
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traces can grow legs in higher humidity and on circuit boards it may cause a short.
not a problem in my speakers, no boards. in the bam none have ever been seen. it has a lot to do with the solder used and the way the bard is coated after production.
b |
I recently acquired Merlin VSM-mme's, which are driven by a modified Pathos TT RR, with a Modwright-Sony 5400ES front end, and Bybee Power Purifier 'Stealth' AC power conditioner. I tried many different cables with this setup including Cardas Golden Reference (have not tried Clear). The Cardas cables were not in the top three based on my listening and the ears of several audiophile friends. I settled on the extraordinarliy transparent Cerious Nano Reference speaker cables with Harmonix HS-101GP or Vitus Andromeda (have both) interconnects. I have Isoclean Supreme Focus, Lessless Signature, Kubala Sosna Emotion, and Audio Magic Clairvoyant Liquid Air AC cords. This cable combination blew away an all Cardas loom, and the substitution of one or several Cardas Golden Reference cables cleary degraded the sound. |
your comments pertain to this system only. i hope you realize this. and you and your tastes.
how old were the gr's and are they the real mcoy?
were the golden ref's cold forged?
bobby p |
Yes, my comments only pertain to my system. Don't know the age of the GR's I listened to, but they belonged to audiophile club members/friends who bought them from dealers so I assume they were authentic.
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were they cold forged?
if you ever get the master bam and master rc mod which is talked to you about (which you should have done before the wire shootout) the end result may have been different. the masters add gobs of body, clearity and expanse. then you would have had a better idea of which cable is the most neutral.
also remember no wire fits everyones taste and that the mme is somewhat detuned from the mxe, mx-r and master vsm. my recs are meant more in concert with these models.
but have fun.
bobby p |
I'm not surprised that the GR didn't make the cut. I always found them to be too much of a good thing with Merlin. For me, the Clear's didn't help either. Again, too much of a good thing and there's only so warm and smooth you can get before you start losing track of finer detail. After swapping in 2 dozen or more cables between a Filarmonia and Merlin speakers, I found that cables that either de-emphasized the mid range, or at least didn't pump it up more, worked best. YMMV. Personally, I opted for WyWires for a more linear, more extended and more dynamic sound, but Nordost was a lot of fun too. |
