Cellcbern :) you said that right....surely Merlins are the BEST "small room speakers" i agree 100%
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Yes - the Six Moons piece was an "Industry Feature", not a review.
I will keep an open mind with regard to the BAM, and at some point I will try the Master BAM. |
c, 6 moons never reviewed the speakers and only heard them at shows. since se's tend to be lower powered they were concerned about the boost freq and the demands on the amp at the boost plateau. even wavelength posed the same concern. se amps tend to sound rounder and smoother than others so i can see why you may prefer the sound without the bam. it may appear a little more defined, delicate and and less bodied but the additional definition is increased distortion and ringing in the hf. the same thing occurs at the other end of the spectrum. when ever out of band energy is reproduced it appears in the form of im distortion in the usable bandwidth. selecting a superbly recorded coral works will show this quality by smearing the layering and specific nature of the piece. when the bam is used it is profoundly more coherent, less complicated and real sounding.
i am grateful for the wonderful comments that you have made about my work. i am not trying to argue with you but a number of people have felt this way and in the end, changed their minds about the bam. you should reserve judgement knowing that virtually 100% of all the end users much prefer it in the system unless there is some compensating factor specific to their system.
enjoy your system.
bobby p |
I think the reason the VSM-mme's sound better to me without the Super BAM may be the single ended, zero negative feedback Inpol circuitry in my modified Pathos TT RR. Both in circuit design and sound the TT mimics an SET amp. I have seen several references online over the years to the VSM's sounding better without the BAM when used with an SET amp. For example: Part 3 of the July 2005 Six Moons.com "Industry Feature" on SET amps ends with a list of SET friendly speakers (see http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/set/set_3.html). This list includes the Merlin VSM but it specifically says "Merlin Music Systems VSM without BAM". It is probably an oddity of my system and particularly the Pathos TT that the VSM's sound better without the Super BAM, and I wouldn't be surprised if VSM owners not using an SET or Inpol amp experienced opposite results. I will report what I hear when I try the Master BAM and RC. As for the GR cables, I did my cable comparisons both with and without the Super BAM. I have also heard the GR's in other systems. The GR's weren't bad in my system, at their price point, and in a different system their synergy with the VSM's might be the deciding factor. But their performance in my system was just not on the same level as the cables I settled on. I will also report what I hear if/when I try the Cardas Clear cables. Not intending to be controversial - just sharing experiences. I also want to be clear how pleased I am with the VSM-mme's. I spent three years auditioning speakers to replace my Ars Aures monitors. Among the speakers that would fit in my small room, the Merlins are the best I've heard. They are world class small room speakers, and are my first recommendation to anyone who asks for advice regarding speakers. Note that a complete description of my system can be found at Audio Asylum, Inmate Systems, under "CBernardino's system". Perhaps there is something else about my system that is contributing to the results I'm getting. |
c, without the bam you are listening to more im distortion and dynamic compression. what you hear is probably the sound of aluminum foils caps pushing the presence range. and yes with the master mods that will be gone. the sound will be more room filling, clearer, purer and more expansive. the new power supply is 50 times quieter too.
what you say may be right to a degree but with the bam in place there is less distortion and a more linear resolved sound. what you have decided on for cables may not be the same or indeed right when the bam is as good as it can be. be careful to pass judgement. i have never heard the positive effects of the bam outweighed by the negative ones and you may be the first in this case.
now all of this makes more sense as i know why you preferred the other cables.
bobby p |
Don't know if the GR's I listened to were cold forged, but both the Harmonix and Vitus Andromeda interconnects with the top of the line (there are two models) Cerious Nano Reference speaker cables were so much better than the GR's in my system, that I'd be surprised if cold forging could close the gap. I would like to try the Master BAM and RC at some point, but didn't make it a priority because in my system the VSM-mme's sound better without the Super BAM (I am using the RC). Even in full battery mode the Super BAM has a slight but audible electronic signature. Based on what I've read that would not be the case with the Master BAM, but I wanted to focus on cables first. In my small room the bass is more than adequate without the Super BAM. In use the Super Bam is OK with acoustic bass, but electronic bass is sometimes too much for the room. With the cables I have the VSM-mme's sound glorious in my system and I am very happy with them. |
s, in large rooms relaxing the mids will give you a sonic character of wider bandwidth and in smaller rooms the more continuous sounding cable sounds best to my ears because of the additional boundary reinforcements. this whole discussion is relative to the volume and reinforcement modes of different sized rooms. one cable will not make everyone happy.
b |
It seems clear that some of the folks in this thread have a much higher budget for cables than I did when I was shopping for a match for my TSM-mmi's. For what it's worth, I'm using Supra Classic 6.0 cables between my TSM's and my Manley Mahi mono-blocks. I am sure they are not on the level of the Cardas cables but Bobby described them as "stupid good" for the price. YMMV, of course. |
I'm not surprised that the GR didn't make the cut. I always found them to be too much of a good thing with Merlin. For me, the Clear's didn't help either. Again, too much of a good thing and there's only so warm and smooth you can get before you start losing track of finer detail. After swapping in 2 dozen or more cables between a Filarmonia and Merlin speakers, I found that cables that either de-emphasized the mid range, or at least didn't pump it up more, worked best. YMMV. Personally, I opted for WyWires for a more linear, more extended and more dynamic sound, but Nordost was a lot of fun too. |
were they cold forged?
if you ever get the master bam and master rc mod which is talked to you about (which you should have done before the wire shootout) the end result may have been different. the masters add gobs of body, clearity and expanse. then you would have had a better idea of which cable is the most neutral.
also remember no wire fits everyones taste and that the mme is somewhat detuned from the mxe, mx-r and master vsm. my recs are meant more in concert with these models.
but have fun.
bobby p |
Yes, my comments only pertain to my system. Don't know the age of the GR's I listened to, but they belonged to audiophile club members/friends who bought them from dealers so I assume they were authentic.
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your comments pertain to this system only. i hope you realize this. and you and your tastes.
how old were the gr's and are they the real mcoy?
were the golden ref's cold forged?
bobby p |
I recently acquired Merlin VSM-mme's, which are driven by a modified Pathos TT RR, with a Modwright-Sony 5400ES front end, and Bybee Power Purifier 'Stealth' AC power conditioner. I tried many different cables with this setup including Cardas Golden Reference (have not tried Clear). The Cardas cables were not in the top three based on my listening and the ears of several audiophile friends. I settled on the extraordinarliy transparent Cerious Nano Reference speaker cables with Harmonix HS-101GP or Vitus Andromeda (have both) interconnects. I have Isoclean Supreme Focus, Lessless Signature, Kubala Sosna Emotion, and Audio Magic Clairvoyant Liquid Air AC cords. This cable combination blew away an all Cardas loom, and the substitution of one or several Cardas Golden Reference cables cleary degraded the sound. |
traces can grow legs in higher humidity and on circuit boards it may cause a short.
not a problem in my speakers, no boards. in the bam none have ever been seen. it has a lot to do with the solder used and the way the bard is coated after production.
b |
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I belong to a guitar forum and a member there sez lead-free solder is responsible for the failure of some cell towers. |
no they are soldered with lead free tri eutectic i believe.
b |
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t, the cold forged gr is quite a bit clearer and more balanced but the clear still sounds clearer, fuller and more life like. more continuous too but if you do not have the $, this is the way to go.
one is fantastic and the other exceptional.
i think the improvement is profound in a good system.
b |
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Bobby,
GR cold forged vs.Clear. How big of a difference? |
cold forging will take away the warmth in the cardas.
especially the newer versions. au24e is a significant improvment over the 24.
b |
I cannot imagine not being happy with either the Cardas or the Audience. If Bobby recommends them, you know they are going to work well. The Cardas "warmth" works wonderfully well with my neutral sounding OTLs and Music Reference RM10s. Bobby has never led me astray, and the Master BAM is a real uograde, not just another product...:) |
Hi all,
I used to own CGR IC, Speakers, PC - After try out piece by piece, I switch all IC/speaker cables to Au24 (not e version).
Good match with my VSM-MXe, for much less money and less "Cardas warm characteristic".
Still wait for green light from Bobby to send in for Master BAM upgrade :-) |
I thought that the silver interconnects that my fried made for me sounded better than the Cardas Golden Reference. They initially sounded cleaner and much clearer. However, after a while it became apparent that they sounded a bit pinched in the mids. I was always drawn back to the Cardas. They sound more like real music to me. |
I can provide some input from personal experience. I had the exact same feeling about the Cardas cables as you do. I argued with Bobby P about it. I was a big JPS fan for a long time. I never heard Cardas sound worth a crap on any system I ever had and never understood why anyone liked them. Had them here many times from the Cable Co. to try and always sent them back unimpressed.
When I got my Merlin VSM lead free speakers from Bobby and a Fila integrated along with the Audio Aero Capitole Reference I finally gave in. I tried the latest JPS and the Cardas GR and had to agree with Bobby that there is a synergy there that can not be denied. They beat the pants off the JPS. I was surprised and shocked. That was enough to convince me and I set out to buy used Cardas GR for the entire system. Power cords, interconnects, speaker cables.
I would not have believed it if I had not heard it myself because it went against everything I had experienced in the past. I'm a planar/electrostatic guy but Bobby P has taken some concepts in which he strongly believes and contined to refine and improve them for years.
Everything is relative but Bobby's "prescription systems" are very hard to beat in my view. They have an organic realism that I have never heard before that is natural and life like. Just get some loaner Cardas from the Cable Co. and listen and draw your own conclusions. I did not want to believe this until I heard it myself. |
The speakers have never sounded better with the MasterBAM and RCs in place - I can't imagine that every SuperBam owner would not think the upgrade well worth it; just one more step in the full realization of the VSM's evolution. |
paul, i knew john and he was not a cable guy that is for sure. i said it then and i'll say it now, "each to his own". :-)
how is the master bam and the master rc's?
should be settled by now.
b |
Interesting, John Dunlavy would proabably have suggested that all cables basically sound the same, he proabably would have recommended large guage zipcord. |
s, golden cross is a softer sounding cable that is recommended for ss or brighter speakers. the vsm se was designed with se triodes and in certain systems could be a little bright and lean. the golden cross had a nice synergy with the early vsm. later vsms were designed with transformer coupled valve amps, otls and ss so they sound a lot fuller, clearer, smoother and expansive. imho, they have really come into there own. now they work extremely well with golden presence, golden ref and are the best with the new cardas clear.
i used golden ref and now the clear to design all of my speakers.
nice to hear from you. :-)
best, b |
Stringreen: I had a similar experience. I have great respect for George and Colleen Cardas, but after I got rid of my Merlin speakers and bought Dunlavys I had no idea how good they were until I got some different cables. Apparently the Cardas (Golden Cross) cables act as a required filter for the Merlins -- or at least the VSM SE. But experiences vary. |
stingreen, your thoughts prove my point.
audioquest is recommended for vandies and anti's have a similar way about them. no wonder you liked them too.
i would not recommend cardas for a vandy system no matter what electronics were being used.
always use the right tool for the right job.
b |
Bobbyalkovic - When I got my Ayre equipment...V1xe amp, K1xe preamp, and C5xemp Silver disc player, I was advised by Ayre itself that Ayre/Cardas cables were the best, so I completely wired the system with the Ayre cables. The cables were in for about 7 or 8 months when a friend brought over a balanced Purist Anniversary interconnect. The difference was screamable. When I went to my dealer, he insisted Cardas was right, and gave me every Cardas balanced interconnect and speaker cable he had to try. They all sounded similarly bad. As I mentioned before, it closed in the sound, became grainy, brown in character, etc. Every cable I substituted sounded better. The best cables by far was Audioquest Sky/Everest and AntiCables. They sounded similar, but I nor anyone I asked could say which ones sounded better, so I did the system in Anti-Cables. I am using Vandersteen 5A speakers, and the sound is wonderful. I would guess that Cardas can sound good in the right system, but mine wasn't right for Cardas. The very worst cable - the ones that ruined the sound completely were the Cardas power cords. |
I think the Fila/Merlin combo is world-class and a no-brainer recommendation for a relatively low-cost SOTA system. Certainly a get-off-the-merry-go-round system. I miss the Fila, but as you can see, I have a bit too much equipment to have kept it. |
Pubul... you may be right regarding Atma..... sorry... i was too excited with those cables....( i am still excited..)
Bobby My merlins...BAM ...and Fila are lead free.....may be MMe are softer sounding and thats the reason i like siltech cables |
m, how old is your fila amp?
what is the serial number?
if it is an older one and has lead in it, that would explain why you like the silver cables in one spot.
as i said, it has a lot to do with the equipment and set up used. and your mme's are softer sounding than the mxe or mx-r. so that would be another reason you "may" like the silver cable more in one spot.
best, b |
Masilu, did you actually hear Atma pre/amp combo with Merlin? The answer to that question ("who wants...") might be answered when having both in that setup; which of course does not mean that the Fila/Merlin combo is not fantastic, it is, but I doubt you would choose it over the Atma-sphere combo, I have had several audiophile visitors listening to that very comparison (Fila versus Atma), not one person had to think about it very long, other than the fact the Atma-combo was considerably more $$$. Don't know what to say about the Cardas GR, we all hear what we hear, so what argument can be made? |
Juancgenao
I am happy to see somebody who felt the same way in audiogon...
I use AA prestige SACD signature, ARS Fila , Merlin VSM mme, all Cardas GR except one interconnect, Equi=Tech 2q....
At one point i thought i change Fila and go for atma sphere..pre power...who wants that now...the beauty of fila also goes off with all cardas GR...
just one pair SILTECH 25TH CLASSIC ANVERSARY 770i interconnects will convert FILA to a extreme hi end amp too, with merlin set up...
cardas GR is good .. i wont change my other Cardas GR cables...
i think Cardas GR shows its full potential with merlins...but not vise versa
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I followed Bobby's advice and bought the Cardas for my TSM-mme's. I did get better sound, that amazing soundstage got a bit better as well. The Cardas is quite nice. I am using Cardas Cross. At some point I will think about a Cardas upgrade, but first need to save for the new TSM's. |
m and j, the wire "you" prefer with "your" vsm speakers will reflect the version of the vsm used, the set up, the room, the associated electronics and "your" personal taste. when i make a recommendation it reflects my choice in regards to the above and the speakers ability to properly play a very high percentage of my music collection. this is not an absolute for everyone.
:-)
i am glad you are so happy and that the wire change you made showed you the potential of the speakers.
thank you.
best regards, bobby |
Agreed with masilo, all cardas GR",takes alot out this speakers, had all cardas in my set up, just made a small speaker sound big, replaced one of the cardas, from Bam to preamp, Huge diference, better focus, bigger stage, and richer sound, immaging, out of this world,
Silk Worm+, and Omega MIcro 900 on the transport, was the icing on the cake, was thinking about selling speakers, or purchase a new Amp, I'm set now, in an all tube set up, all cardas, kills the sound of this speakers,
if just one good cable where used at the Shows,
probably would won 90 best of show, intead of 70,
My humble oppinion:
Cheers: |
Masilu, we must choose what we like and all our preferences are different and we are entitled them - no doubt. But it seems to me that Bobby has received too many best in show, or ten best in show acknowledgments with the Cardas GR array to suggest that it "surely spoils the sound" - though it may for you. Not to say say the GRs will be "best" for everyone, but Bobby seems to think it does not ruin the sound of his speakers. |
Using all the cardas GR cables (Interconnect, speaker and power cables) SURELY spoils the sound. IMHO use a silver cable between BAM and preamp/integrated (i used siltech classic annversary 330i)...I was just about to sell Merlins before i tried this.....now merlins will stay for ever in my main listening room... IMO do not underestemate sound of merlins after using all Cardas GR cables.... Merlins are one of the very very best speakers available....do not spoil the sound with all Cardas GR cables... and later complaint the sound of merlins and sell it.... i know people who have done that
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art, agreed and a perfect way to decribe it.
b@m |
Be sure you are using the Cardas Golden Ref or one of the other more transparent Cardas line. The Cross line are slightly warmer but also slower and more opaque. I like Cross mainly with lower priced transistor gear that is a bit unrefined on the top end. |
Call the Cable Co. and have them send you a full set of Cardas GR and evaluate them. I have Bobby's full receipe with the Fila integrated and it is the best all around system I've owned. I've had Soundlabs, Maggies, Acoustats, Quadratures and Martin Logans. Bobby's system has an organic natural quality that I've never heard before and I'm basically a planar/electrostatic guy. Pretty damn hard to beat in my opinion. |
9rw, I have used CAT, Pass, Quicksilver, Lamm, ARC, Placette, and a few other pre/amp combos with the Merlins. The reason I have what I have is they work well with the Merlins, that being said OTLs will work incredibly well with any speaker that is tube friendly, which the Merlin is. With all the amps I have tried, nothing beast OTLs to me, and the reason Merlin is often recommended with Joule, is the fact that it happens to be an OTL, so it does not shock that Bobby would go that way, though he liked the CAT gear too. That amp/speaker interface is so important to get right, perhaps the most important part of getting a system right that I think you would have to be crazy to not take advice from a speaker designer that suggests what he thinks will work best. I think there is some truth to the perception that some may fear that gear not on "Bobby's Approved List" might not work well. That should be nipped in the bud, as the speakers certainly work well with any of the tube amps I have used, and the Pass XA30.5 as well. But there is a tendency to believe that if Bobby does not mention a particular amp or cable then it won't get the best from the speakers, that can get dangerous. Probably why most manufacturers will stay away from recommend to specically a particular amp, power cord, tube, etc for their speakers. For the most part Bobby has chosen well and I think most folks have been happy with his recommendations for accompanying products. If you don't want to experiment too much and possibly waste alot of money, Bobby's recommendations seem to be right on the money (for his speakers). |
Pubul57: I notice that you have all of the prescribed components for the Merlins, affirming my position.
As for Dunlavy's belief about speaker cables, I read that essay many years ago. I'd have to read it again to be sure of his criteria, but I've been pretty clear about what I have found to be true. Cables can make a big difference, hence the need for Cardas -- or similar cables -- with Merlin.
If you're happy with your system, that's what matters most, cost be damned. |
9rw, you are right the John Dunlavy knew ALOT about speaker design and some really love his speakers. He also basically said that those that can here differences between speaker cables are hallucinating (other than the impact of guage). That essay he wrote wasn't popular with cable manufacturers. Do you agree with him? You can Google his essay on "differences" between cable. quite interesting.
I, by the way, have heard improvement through Bobby's incremtal improvements. Perfecting the basic design over years is on reason the speaker is so well "sorted out" and for many owners, in some ways, the best speaker ever made. Which is not the same as saying it will be everyone's favourite speaker. But it is a speaker that needs to be taken seriously when looking for the best sound in the home. |
but what of the focus, layering and overall natural quality?
bobby |
