In this 8K price range I'd look at the Luxman Pda -171A TT.
mcintosh MT10 turntable good or not.
Has anyone got any experience with this table yet? I had problems with my other table and want to upgrade from the 2xperience from project. My dealer has made me what I think is a great deal to goto that table. I just don't know anything about the table and how it stacks up against project other than it looks cool.
thanks
thanks
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Im so unimpressed by ALL McIntosh and even live close to their Mothership store and heard the 300K system and listened to two songs and it was so un-emotional i could not wait to make the drive home to fire up my MERLIN/Quicksilver 6c33c/Atma-Sphere m-60/Hattor Audio system which by the way BLOWS THE DOORS OFF OF ANYTHING MCINTOSH...MAC IS FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO SAY..."I PAID 200K FOR THIS SYSTEM ISN'T IT SOMETHING AT THEIR NEXT WINE AND CHEESE PARTY." |
The MT10 was tested favorably a couple of years ago in the British HiFi World magazine where it was compared with a modified Technics SL1200GAE with SME IV tonearm and external power supply. About the same price, different, but no winner. There are several other TTs in this price range to consider. I suggest going to the Stereophile website and the Absolute Sound website and looking at their editors' choice listings. |
re: server vs. disc: you were comparing different players, not the formats. You would need to compare a server vs. a transport through the same external DAC using the same digital cable for your comparison to be valid. Under such circumstances, the word is that the server will win out, and for predictable technical reasons. Robert Harley just reported on this issue in TAS in a rather compelling article. The other case he made was for what he found to be far superior logistics of filing, cross-referencing and accessing on the server. |
I'm not surprised at you findings regarding the disc sounding better than the server, much downloaded music is highly compressed at a lower bit rate. I still think the people will win, and downloaded music is much cheaper than buying and storing cd's. My wife would love to have a two walls back that are occupied with software. She knows she's not getting the LP wall back, but I can see the gleam in her eye about that cd wall.......in fact she just asked me nicely if I could go through my cd collection and clean out 'some that I haven't listened too for a few years'. Her point is I have 4 large storage cabinets that were starting to overflow. I did clean out about 100 cd's, enough to clear up the overflow/clutter. Now I just have to decide what to do with 'em. I don't even know if anyone buys used cd's anymore.... Yes, I have a few XRCD's, they are pretty good, but overpriced. If I recall correctly XRCD's were priced higher than SACD, and are not quite as good as SACD, IMHO. |
John, I listened to a music server and a good one I think. I also listened to the same Cd on the same system at same volume and the disc sounded better than the server. These just happened to be in the same cabinet togeter and I asked the store to let me hear the difference and they did. Ofcoarse they were pleasantly suprised that there was infact a difference although you wouldn't probably notice unless you tested that way. They were trying to get me to buy the server but after that I decided to buy the classe cdp202. (not the cd player used in this test) All cd's were put into this server with lostless download but its definately different. |
Well, IMHO, SACD is a superior format compared to redbook, in general. Sure, I have heard some very well mastered redbook cd's, and a few poorly done SACD's. However, with a good copy of each, I find the SACD to sound closer to vinyl than redbook. I know I should never say never, but I can't see myself ever owning a redbook only cd player again. Yes, I know SACD is a dying format, but there are currently over 5000 titles and still more being made, though mostly in classical and jazz. Jazz happens to be my favorite genre though. FWIW, redbook cd also appears to be a dying format. Maybe my next player will be a music server....no discs at all.... Cheers, John |
When you're right, you're right John. I geuss I just wanted to see the SACD side of thing even though I'm sure a didn't give it a good test (not a great Player) but I just didn't want a reason to start buying another kind of cd now with the records and all. It seems a lot of the titles I see on SACD, I also see on LP. |
Hey Beerdraft, well that explains a few things. I've tried a few times to simplify things with a dvd/cd player, but could never find one that sounded decent. I even tried a few modded ones. I'm back to seperate units again now, and I cannot imagine trying the combo routine again. My HT and stereo are in the same room, but mostly seperated. I will not use a SSP for a preamp, and I will not use a DVD player to play cd's. Cheers, John |
Hey idiotec, is there any way to tell a good pressing from a bad one on the used market. I've heard to stay away from the 80's pressings, but other than that how do you tell. What about to tell if it is the original pressing. Also to Johnny, I love me some Dianna Kral, I probably didn't even spell her name right but I still like her so I will have to look for that album. |
Johnnyb53, I'm so glad you told me that about old vinyl. I never would've known, I think we have a little old music store here in atlanta that just might have a lot of old records used for sale. I now remember thinking a while back before I got into vinyl as I passed the store and they advertised records har to find and I'm thinking who wants a record? Now look at me, I corrupted. thanks |
Currently buy from musicdirect and have only bought 180g and 200g.While most of those "audiophile grade" pressings are very good, I think you will be very surprised how well a good condition, clean old original pressing can sound. I have a mix bag of new pressings and older stuff, and many of by best sounding albums are used pieces I picked up cheap from local record stores. Another way you might want to give your collection a nice jump start is looking for lot sales, both here on the gon and ebay. Many go for about $1 or less a record when purchased in a lot. While I pick up hard to find items online, I find that digging through old albums is one of the best parts of the hobby. Happy listening! |
You beat me to it Beerdraft, I was just about to recommend the Marantz. That's what I'm now using, a SA-11S1 w/ Ultimate mod from Underwood/pcX. Out of curiosity, which Marantz did you listen to? Was it broken in? If not the Marantz, then possibly look for a used Audio Aero, they sound very good (for digital). However, I've read quite a few complaints about transport problems with AA units, so be careful. Face it, it sounds as if you're ruined for digital now. It's hard to go back to the same old town after cruising through the Caribbean in a private yacht...... I doubt you will find any magic cable to cure what ails you. Though you may want to try some cables made with Gold conductors. Either from Jade Audio, Gabriel Gold or the KCI Silkworms. I prefer the Jade Audio, though others have their favorites too. Cheers, John |
01-18-08: BeerdraftMost of them are from thrift shops and the dollar bins at used record stores. For titles that are important to me, I got a few from eBay in the $5-15 range, and I bought a few new ones at a local store. My most expensive new ones are a 180g 30th anniv. "Dark Side of the Moon" and 200g Classic Records edition of Diana Krall's "From This Moment On," cut on a tube-driven lathe. I have been amazed at how many used records still have great sound in them and most need little cleaning. For those that need cleaning, a blast or two from a handheld steamer does a good job. I'm in my 50s, so there is a lot of music from the '60s thru the '80s that I'm fond of, and none of it sounded right on the CD reissues (especially the Beatles). The used LP market enables me to rediscover these musical treasures often for .50 to 1.00 a pop (but not the Beatles). Still, I managed to find never-played Japanese pressings of Rubber Soul and Revolver for $12 ea. |
Thats awsome Johnnyb53, where do you get your LP's? I tested a marantz SACD player as my dealer let me take it home and they gave me a handfull of SACD's to use as I didn't have any. It was nice but I'd much rather listen to the vinyl to as one of the disc they gave me I actually had the record and prefer it. So I took the sacd back. I will definately start spending my money mostly on records now. Currently buy from musicdirect and have only bought 180g and 200g. Also the XRCD IS a verygood sounding CD and I prefer it over SACD. I haven't heard the same two disc on both formats but the few xrcd's I have are great evne in my rotel player. We'll see in the new player when it gets in. |
Point well, taken John and Piepiper, I know there are a lot of beautiful tables at the 8 and 9 grand price point and they sound good as they should. Any one of them would probably sound just as good if not better in my home but I've only heard a couple in the stores I've been to and none of them made me want to spend that kind of money, until I got it to my house which changed everything. John, to your point, right now my TT is in the pent house loving life. My CD's are on the street just wanting to come in and I can't let them. I don't need to get absolute vinyl reproduction but if I could atleast get them in the same building, I'd be happy. I have lots more cd's than vinyl at this point and would love to get the sound better so I will enjoy them. Hopefully this cdp202 will be capable of doing that, if not I may just give up. At six grand plus, I'm not going any higher for a cd, I'll just stick with vinyl. Any thoughts on cables from the cd to pre? thanks |
01-17-08: Beerdraft You'll drive yourself nuts, or broke, if you're trying to find a cd player that can match vinyl. Supposedly APL has a $30K cd player that can do it. I haven't heard any yet that can top vinyl. If anything I've downgraded my digital in the last couple of years, and put the extra money towards analog. Now I say that my digital is good enough for what I use it for. It's not the best out there, but I grew tired of chasing the elusive digital dream. Spending 2-4 times as much on digital may get me a better sounding player, but it still won't compete with analog. Long Live Vinyl! Cheers, John |
Everybody's different, but in my case, when I got my turntable last March, it sounded so much better than the CDs I'd been spinning for the previous 20 years that I didn't even play a CD again (except to compare to the same recording on LP) for 10 months. In the meantime I acquired somewhere between 300 and 400 LPs. I finally got an Oppo DV-980H, especially for its SACD ability, and I use it some for music and a lot for upconverting standard DVDs, but when I want to connect with the artist and the music, I go to the turntable. Back in March, before deciding where to spend my money, I took an SACD and direct disc LP of the same recording to Seattle's highest high end shop and played it on a very mid 5-figures Linn rig. The LP made the SACD sound threadbare and hashy. I bought a turntable the next weekend. |
Thanks Swampwalker, I actally went crazy trying to get better sound now from the CD player and bought the classe cdp202 today. This table is both a blessing and a bad thing being it made me want a better cd player as I won't even listen to a disc right now. I just took back the player and ordered a new one so no disc til next week. Will just have to spin some records. thanks |
Thanks for you suggestion but I'd gladly pay full retail if I knew what I was getting. In fact I did misunderstand the initial offer they made me and paid a good bit more than I said earlier but I did still get what I consider a good deal on it and I wouldn't trade it for anything at this point. Sorry if I mislead you on what I paid but it was a simple misunderstanding between me and my dealer. I was more than glad to pay the difference though after hearing the machine. Like I said it is the best money I've spent to date in my system. |
IMHO, the only thing that makes this rig attractive compared to it's "more legitimate" siblings is the deal Beerdraft got on it. I'm guessing the dealer had an agenda in dumping it so cheap. Personally, I find the look offensive ala McMarketing hype. Having said all that, obviously BD got a good deal on a good sounding combo. At anywhere near full price I'd look elsewhere though. |
Okay all a'goners, this table is great. I think I'll start a new thread and explain more but it is absolutely fantastic. I couldn't imagine getting better sound in the price range. The setup is easy. They have obviously gone to great lengths to get this idiot proof. They must've done all these test and come up with the perfect setup for this table. The detail in setup is amazing and I don't think it is possible to mess it up unless you can't read or don't have fingers or something. You don't need any special tools, it all comes with the table, no special disc or meters just follow the instructions. I played about 5 or 6 albums and the sound stage and imaging was amazing as well as the realism. I don't have the best system (B&W 804N, CJ PV14L, CJ MF2250, AND ALL CABLES AND INTERCONNECTS ARE TRIBUTARIES DIRECT) I have a rotel Cd payer the newest one, and a marantz SACD player. Before this table I wanted to upgrade amps and speakers to fill in the large room I'm in. Now with the sound coming out of my speakers with this mcintosh MT10 turntable, I now know my first order of priority is to upgrade my other source components and the amp and speakers can wait. This is a huge step for me as I didn't see that as being so important before but after one listening session, I now know it is. I highly reccomend the table and my thanks goes out to mcintosh for designing a table that is so easy to set-up for optimum performance. thanks for all the advice here |
Cables have 3 basic specifications--resistance, inductance, and capacitance, or R-L-C. Capacitance is measured in farads, or in the case of interconnects, picoFarads (pF). High capacitance rolls off the treble and slows down the rise time. The signal coming off a tonearm is rather fragile and easily darkened by too much capacitance. Generally, you'll want the total capacitance of the interconnect from the tonearm to the preamp to be around 100 pF or less. Some cable companies publish capacitance figures and some don't. Sometimes you can pick up the figure when a reviewer tests them. I remember around 15 years ago that the Audioquest Emerald interconnect had vanishingly low capacitance. Kimber cable interconnects have pretty low capacitance. They rate their Timbre interconnect at 45.8 pF, I think, for 1 meter. Nordost often has *really* low capacitance. Their Solar Wind interconnect is rated at a very low 7.6 pF/foot. Their highest price stuff is around 20 pF/foot. Cardas Audio also publishes their RLC specs. Cardas 300B is 42.9 pF/foot; Cardas Cross is 26.4 pf/foot (just about right), and their more upscale Neutral Reference is 19 pf/foot. They also make an entire line of DIN-plug phono cables. |
Okay, got one more thing I don't understand. The mcintosh guy emailed me and told me the setting for my project preamp and said it should do just fine. He mentioned using low capacitance cables from the turntable to the preamp. What does this mean and how do you tell a low capacitance cable. I have currently tributarys direct (probably not a great cable, but this is all new to me). |
Okay I've got it. Man this thing is like a tank. The box is huge and its heavy too. It isn't plug and play ready though as I thought. I've got some work to do. I've read the manual and they went to great lengths to I think make all adjustments easy and idiot proof, which is huge for me not being the smartest guy and all. I'll get back to ya' soon. |
It is confirmed the tone arm and cartridge is made by clear audio. the only difference is the channel separation on the specs there for the talisman. Not sure what that means, but one is .3 and the other is .5. the table is made by mcintosh in a joint effort with clear audio going by some of clear audio's best specs and technology according to them. picked it up today and will try to play tonight if I can get my work done. will let you know beerdraft |
Check out the Clearaudio site for their cartridges and compare the Clearaudio Talisman cartridge to the one on the MAc turntable. If you read the MC tt manual, it contains the cartridge specs. They are the same as the Clearaudio Talisman. It is probably the same cartridge rebadged. I think it is about $1k. |
I have the project tube box se2 preamp. it has inputs for moving coil cartridges. not sure I understand this. the highest input impedance is 220 ohms on the preamp. the output impedance of the cartridge on the mcintosh sais greater than 200 ohms reccomended 500 ohms. first will my project work at 220 ohms? second if I had a phono pre with the 500 ohm input, is that better and what does this mean? This is way above my level in intelect if you can't tell by my spelling. thanks |
It sounded good to me today when I listened to it in a area not condusive to listening really. I was listening to the mt10 with mcintosh preamp with phono built in along with mcintosh tube amps driving b&w 803's but not in a good listening area. they are more into home theater and I wish they had some of there two channel stuff setup in a good listening room instead of just in the lobby area wide open to everything. They say all the money is going to home theater, sad being I'm a two channel guy. thanks |
Beerdraft -- the cartridge comes with the table and the $2K number comes about, probably as a replacement price from McIntosh (should it become broken). Like the one at CES-2008, so, I've heard. The Tonearm is alluminum -- probably outsourced like the table components and cartridge. IMO, I'd take take a couple nice records down to the dealer, and have a pleasant listening session. If you like what you hear, take the deal with the table. |
All that being said I don't gather that any of you have heard the table play yet. I don't know but I will be paying less than half of any of these numbers which is the only reason I'm considering this. As I said I think he has made me a sweet deal as long as this player is a good player. I think I know what he is trying to do since he knows I'm in the upgrade mode with the rest of my system. He wants me to start to like the way that mc looks in the rack and buy all mc stuff when I do upgrade everything else. hey Ontjesr, the cartridge is rumored to be a $2k cartridge, is that what you mean above. That and the tone arm is what has me confused, who made them Mcintosh or someone else. I don't know if they have some kind of incentive with mcintosh or what but he took my old player back no questions asked full credit and offered me a 9G table for way less than half that new in the box. He sais I just want you to be happy and he thinks that will make me happy. What should I do, and no my mind isn't made up but this is hard to turn down unless someone knows something about this table I don't. thanks for your advice |
The Mc is re-branded clearaudio stuff with a blue face, they have added nothing to the state of the art, except high cost. At least when Marantz needed a table it just took the stock player and added its name. But, if you need a blue face, just go for it and feel good. I understand that this product was dealer driven in that they wanted to make the high margins and felt there was a 'hole' in the line. They know Mc buyers are suckers for 'blue'. Wait to Mikey gets a hold of it, all hell will break out as he hems and haws, Mc is a big advertiser. |