"...has everybody heard Joan Osborne singing "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" backed by the bros?"
Yes, indeed. Stand-out performance !
Marty Stuart on Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers:
"I’ve never made any bones about it. I think Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers were the greatest Rock & Roll Band the United States Of America has ever produced."
Wow. Better than The Hawks/The Band (though composed of only one American and four Canadians, I consider the U.S.A. responsible for their formation)? Better than NRBQ, and The Byrds? And Los Lobos? As I consider Marty and his band The Fabulous Superlatives the current best band in the world, his opinions carry a lot of weight with me.
Okay, maybe I’ve been wrong about TP & TH. ;-)
Wow. Better than The Hawks/The Band (though composed of only one American and four Canadians, I consider the U.S.A. responsible for their formation)? Better than NRBQ, and The Byrds? And Los Lobos? As I consider Marty and his band The Fabulous Superlatives the current best band in the world, his opinions carry a lot of weight with me.
Okay, maybe I’ve been wrong about TP & TH. ;-)
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Speaking of The Funk Brothers: has everybody heard Joan Osborne singing "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" backed by the bros? It’s in the documentary on that outstanding band, and is astoundingly great, the equal imo of the original (which features the bass playing of James Jamerson), which is one of my three all-time favorite songs (the other two being Brian Wilson’s "God Only Knows" and a 3-way tie between The Band’s "The Weight", Iris DeMent’s "No Time To Cry", and Procol Harum’s "A Whiter Shade Of Pale". What, no Beatles or Stones? And speaking of The Band: I am currently reading Levon Helm: Rock, Roll, Ramble; The Inside Story Of The Man, The Music, And The Midnight Ramble by John W. Barry (with a foreword by Ringo Starr), from which I have learned much. A very welcome addition to my music book library. One New Wave band I did and do like is Squeeze. Excellent songwriting, acceptable singing, and good live (I saw them in London in 1982). Are The Pretenders considered New Wave? Yeah, I know: what’s in a name? ;-) |
I heard Jourard when he was in The Motels, who were pretty big in L.A. in the early-80's. At that time I was playing with a real fine songwriter-singer who loved them, but they didn't ring my bells; too New Wave for me (the same reason I don't like The Attractions. Listen to how they perform Soul music---on Costello's Get Happy!!, then listen to how The Funk Brothers---the Motown house band---and The Swampers---the great Muscle Shoals recording band---do it. No comparison imo). |
Agreed, @onhwy61. Though he and his band are not amongst my favorites, he and they certainly had a very long and artistically and commercially successful run. Good for them. I also like that Tom stood up to his record company when they were intending to raise the price on their LP’s, starting with his at-the-time new one. Speaking of Petty’s large-scale success always brings me back to Dwight Twilley, whose songs, singing, and band I have always greatly preferred to Tom’s. They plow the generally same field, though Dwight’s music contains far more of a 1950’s influence that does Tom’s, perhaps why I find it more to my liking. The mass audience disagreed, rewarding Tom to a much greater extent than they did Dwight. Even more to my liking is Dave Edmunds, my favorite 1970’s/80’s artist. But that’s another story for another day. Let me just say that both as a solo artist and as a member of the super-group Rockpile (with Nick Lowe, Billy Bremner, and Terry Williams)---and as a producer-for-hire---Dave was one of the very best sounding live performers I’ve ever seen and heard. His 1983 show at The Ritz in NYC was my ex’s all-time favorite live shows. She has great taste. ;-) |
Commercial success is a signifier of commercial success and it may or may not correlate with artistic achievement. To maintain commercial success, or even viability, over decades is rare and IMO to be applauded. Tom Petty did that and he did it while maintaining the respect of other high quality musicians. What more can you ask of a guitar player boy from Gainesville? |
@bdp245: "What I above meant by saying you can’t argue with success, is not that "popularity is proof of artistic merit", or even that there aren’t examples of garbage that sells well, but rather that anything that is popular and does sell well is providing something of value to the people who like it, even if I myself don’t". Gotcha. Thanks for the further clarification. Sorry It took me so long to fully grasp your point about "providing something of value". You're right-- in that respect, you "can't argue with success". |
So I’m watching A Bronx Tale, and in one scene "99 And A Half (Won’t Do)" comes on the radio. I am instantly reminded that the studio band backing Wilson Pickett on the song---known as The Swampers---are just unbelievably, stupendously great. Tough, wicked coolness. THAT is what The Stones have for all their history been trying to sound like, and failing. The Swampers---whose members include the superb rhythm section of Roger Hawkins on drums and David Hood on bass---are legendary amongst better musicians. Though not a band in the same sense that the self-contained (doing all the singing, playing all the instruments, and at least some if not all the songwriting) ones we’re talking about here are, they are imo the best band I have ever heard, American or otherwise. Do they qualify as a Rock ’n’ Roll band, as Marty Stuart was speaking of? I believe so. You’ve heard The Swampers too, on hundreds of recordings. Aretha---and all the other R & B artists Atlantic Records’ producer Jerry Wexler took down to Muscle Shoals to record, Traffic---and members Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi’s solo albums, Boz Scaggs, Paul Simon (give a listen to "Kodachrome"---omg, the drumming is insanely great!), hundreds of others, including, yes, The Stones. |
@stuartk: I’m uncomfortable admitting this now (it sounds pretty elitist ;-), but in the 1970’s---when my peers and I considered most Pop music (non-Classical, non-Jazz, non-Blues, non-Country) to be getting really bad (except for the stuff we liked, of course ;-), I and those I was involved with were of the opinion that a band/group/artists’ level of popularity was most often the inverse of it’s quality. That was a direct result of us liking music that was ignored and/or not liked by a mass audience, that audience liking stuff we didn’t. I didn’t then consider that to be somewhat influenced by a feeling of smug superiority, but I now fear it was. What I above meant by saying you can’t argue with success, is not that "popularity is proof of artistic merit", or even that there aren’t examples of garbage that sells well, but rather that anything that is popular and does sell well is providing something of value to the people who like it, even if I myself don’t. In other words, popularity is also not proof of a lack of artistic merit, at least to those who find such merit in the music. That it is wrong for me to apply my standards and/or tastes to those who have dissimilar standards and/or tastes is what I was implying. |
@winoguy17: September's great. It's called Wolf Neck Woods: https://www.maine.gov/cgi-bin/online/doc/parksearch/search_name.pl?state_park=31&historic_site=&... Another nice place, nearby, for a Fall; walk is the Mast Landing Audubon Sanctuary, also off Flying Point, but closer to Freeport: https://www.mainetrailfinder.com/trails/trail/mast-landing-audubon-sanctuary |
@bdp24: "But there are many, many examples of great art and great success coming together in one place" "Mass popularity sometimes comes from not just talent, but timing and good luck. In other cases it’s pure, hard work". Of course. I never claimed, nor would I, that the above assertions are false. I'm of an artistic temperment myself; nothing you say about the realities of being an artist is news to me. But I continue to (strenuously) disagree that popularity is "proof" of artistic merit. There is simply far too much evidence to the contrary! It's entirely possible to be a great commercial success without delivering more than the sonic equivalent of fast food. Popular music is full of examples of this. Are these people "doing something right" ? Yeah, I guess, in terms of making money. Is it art? Hell no. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this point. @winoguy17: Harpswell in the summer is gorgeous-- lucky you! Have you been to Wolf's Neck Park on Flying Point Rd., between Brunswick and Freeport? My wife and I used to ride our bicycles out there from our home in Topsham. We lived there nine years and still miss it--what a special place. |
Great thread, but as with all things subjective, there is no right answer. Always loved TP, saw live 4-5 times, including the Dylan tour. Seen NRBQ at least 50 times going back to early 70's to as recent as last year. In their prime years with Big Al, Terry, Joey and Tom, plus the Whole Wheat Horns, they were an incredible force ! As good a live show as Ive ever seen, and Ive seen a lot! I seem to have some things in common with stuartk: same age, still live next to Woodstock ( over 50 years) and vacation each year up near Brunswick ( Harpswell ) |
A lot of my favorite music makers never achieved (or if current have yet to achieve) mass popularity, instead remaining on the cult level. Some of them prefer it that way (or at least claim to ;-), and many realistically shouldn’t have expected or anticipated anything more. One benefit of not becoming huge is that it may result in a longer career---Richard Thompson, for example. Those who rise quickly many times also disappear just as quickly. Serious artists just want to spend their lives doing what they love; not becoming huge stars known to a massive audience, but being life-long professional musicians, singers, and/or songwriters. Many do it on a semi-poverty level, barely supporting themselves, if that. Here’s a somewhat unknown secret in the music business: many musicians---even those somewhat well known---rely on a significant other (a girlfriend, most commonly) for financial support. They have grown up doing nothing but making music, and have no other job skills. They will tell you: "I make music not because I want to (though they of course do), but because I have to." It’s a hunger as primal as food and sex. But I have long agreed with @slaws sentiment: You can’t argue with success. They’re doing something right ;-) . That level of popularity is sometimes achieved by pandering to the lowest common denominator, as do crass politicians (tell ’em what they want to hear.). I’m thinking of acts like Kiss. But those are usually mere entertainers, no one taking them seriously anyway. But there are many, many examples of great art and great success coming together in one place. There are those who like to keep their favorite artist(s) to themselves, which though I can understand is the exact opposite of myself. As ya’ll have come to know, I do everything I can to bring under-acknowledged ad/or appreciated artists to the attention of others. Many others here do the same. Mass popularity sometimes comes from not just talent, but timing and good luck. In other cases it’s pure, hard work. There are cases of an artists toiling for years to a cult audience, then suddenly having a hit record---Bonnie Raitt, for example. When that happens, I always watch to see if that success results in a decrease in the quality of the work; the artist---having now tasted success and liking its flavour---decides to do whatever it takes to retain that popularity. When that happens, I just move on. There are plenty of others deserving my attention (and disposable income ;-) . |
A quote attributed to many master Jazz musicians---Miles Davis, Count Basie, and Duke Ellington to name just three---goes "The Notes you don't play are as important as those you do." I consider that essential musical wisdom. I've been watching Jackson Browne's series of YouTube videos (made and posted during the fake-pandemic ;-), and have been very impressed with the musicians he chose to accompany him (he has always displayed his great taste in such matters), including the great Greg Lietz. The videos have also reminded me of just what a superb songwriter Jackson is. |
@bdp24: "Let's just call both (U.S.A.) Americans and Canadians as North Americans. ;-) ". Sure. Why not? "I would argue that in some ways Americans from the North (or at least non-South) have more in common with Canadians than they do with Southerners" You could very well be right. I've almost no exposure to the South so I can't say. My wife and I have been on 3 vacations to Canada, though and we love it up there. "Do people think of Neil Young as an American, or a Canadian? How about Joni Mitchell? Leonard Cohen?" Tough calls for me. I'd bet all three were heavily influenced by American music but the question is: are their artistic sensibilities more Canadian or American? ? ? Above my pay grade, I'm afraid. That's perhaps a question for a serious academic. |
Let’s just think of (U.S.A.) Americans and Canadians as North Americans. ;-) . I would argue that in some ways Americans from the North (or at least non-South) have more in common with Canadians than they do with Southerners. Levon Helm---born and raised in Arkansas---was the heart and soul of The Band (though Richard Manuel was very soulful), his voice a major element of their trademark sound. The other members of The Band cite American songwriters, singers, and musicians as their role models. Do people think of Neil Young as an American artist, or a Canadian one? How about Joni Mitchell? Leonard Cohen? The Guess Who? Steppenwolf? |
@orgillian197: You are correct in the literal sense about The Band being not American (or at least 4 of the 5 members weren't), but I above explained my admittedly thin excuse for overlooking that fact. ;-) Isn't it ironic, then, that The Band are credited as being if not THE origins of what we now call Americana music, at least one of it's primary sources. For those who have yet to discover and explore the music of a band considered by many (including Elvis Costello, Richard Thompson, Dave Edmunds & Nick Lowe, John Hiatt, and many of our other favorite artists) to be amongst America's greatest---NRBQ, do yourself a huge favour and do so. One of the very best---and most entertaining---live bands I've ever seen and heard. |
As much as I enjoy Petty’s music, in terms of quality, the 3 American Bands (sorry, as much as I admire The Band, they’re not American) I’d submit are, in no particular order, Los Lobos, Little Feat and, on the great nights, the Grateful Dead. The reason I would put these ahead of Petty is that when I listen to his music I really like the best tunes but am really bored with the others. Don’t have that problem with Lobos or Feat and can get there without too much pruning with the Dead. |
Ha! Yeah, but The Attractions are on only a coupla songs, which I skip. ;-) Just kidding. I loved Costello’s debut (I got the UK Stiff Records import before it was released stateside), not knowing at the time the band was comprised of members of Clover, from my neck-o-the-woods (well, Marin County). When the follow-up came out, I didn’t care for it at all. The playing on the debut was much more soulful, with a fairly deep pocket; on the follow-up the playing sounds rushed (English drummers are well-known to play at the front edge of the pocket. Ringo was an exception, as was the studio drummer who played on the early Kinks albums.), and "clacky". Plus, I didn’t like the production, the sound of the recordings. Too glassy-sounding, not organic enough for me. Too bad he didn’t have Dave Edmunds produce him instead of Nick Lowe (don’t care for his production style. Edmunds is far more to my liking). If Costello likes the drumming of Pete Thomas, well, we just have different tastes, and will have to agree to disagree. Pete tensions his drum heads far too tight for me---the drums don’t "breathe". Very shallow tone, no depth. But hey, he’s done alright for himself, hasn’t he? ;-) I felt the exact same way when I heard The Red Hot Cilli Peppers’ drummer on one of the Dixie Chicks albums---he’s playing a piccolo snare drum, the sound of which I despise. Ruined the album for me! And then there is The Attractions bassist (don’t recall his name): he plays a Rickenbacker! How "girly" is that? ;-) Real men play Fenders. But what really makes The Attractions unlistenable is the cheesy sound of Steve Nieve’s organ. He needs to get himself a Hammond and Leslie! He sounds far too "white" for me, in both tone and style. As for Costello himself: he’s a mighty fine songwriter, but his vibrato is WAY outta control. Far too much of it; Elvis, baby, just sing the note---stop trying so hard to prove you’re a "good" singer. |
With a single post you've thrown into doubt every post you've made about music. I actually thought you knew something. But to slight the Attractions clearly shows your TIN drum EAR. They were (and as the Imposters) still are a great band. Additionally, during his Hall Of Fame acceptance speech Mr. Costello called Bruce Thomas the greatest rock and roll drummer. So there! Take it back or I will be forced to write an angry op-ed letter to the New York Times. BTW, the Attraction also played on "King Of America". |
@jaym759: "Lightweights"---that adjective better characterizes The Heartbreakers than did my use of "unsubstantial." Another band whose talents don’t rise to the level of the songwriting---imo---are The Attractions. The only Costello album I like enough to own is King Of America, produced by T Bone Burnett, who has great taste in musicians. The musicians heard on King Of America include the great Earl Palmer, Ray Brown, James Burton, Jerry Scheff, Ron Tutt, Jo-El Sonnier, Mitchell Froom, T-Bone Wolk, Jim Keltner, and David Hildago. Damn! |
Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers had its roots in the Gainesville, FL music scene in the 60's consisting of a few small bands competing for gigs at local U of F fraternity houses and other local venues. Tom competed against another band made up of the Jourard brothers, who later rounded out Martha & the Motels. Jeff Jourard was certainly the superior guitarist to the player in Tom's band. In fact Tom asked Jeff to go on tour with his band once everyone moved to California to replace his original guitarist, who was leaving the band, but later returned. So unless you are counting the time when Jeff Jourard played with the Heartbreakers, than I can't see where they were the "greatest band" ever. Tom was surely a great song writer, but his band IMHO are light weights compared to another Florida band, the Allman Brothers, coming out of Ormond Beach FL. If you include Steven Stills also from Gainesville, then you begin to see what Tom and his band were competing against...some of the greatest musicians up and including now. Enjoy the music!! |
Clapton asserts he never invited G. baker to join Blind Faith and given the ongoing war between Baker and Bruce, which had thrust Clapton into the thankless role of perpetual mediator, it makes sense that he wasn't eager for a reunion with either of them. According to the liner notes in my Blind Faith deluxe, Baker "just showed up" at Clapton's home during a rehearsal and apparently, EC didn't have the will to refuse him. It's not clear to me whether Winwood had invited Baker or not, but I happen to like his playing with B. Faith. While Disraeli Gears is admittedly dated, I still enjoy listening to it,once in a great while, although I tend to skip over S.O.Y.L. -- heard that one a few too many times. Fresh Cream is my favorite Cream album because it's more bluesy, less psychedelic. There is a concert dvd of the version of Traffic you mention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocjSc7v83pk |
I kept my copy of Fresh Cream (and the John Mayall album, as well as it’s followup with Peter Green playing guitar), but ditched Disraeli Gears long ago. Did you hear Atlantic Records President Ahmet Ertegan’s reaction to hearing the album tapes? He characterized the music as "psychedelic h*rsesh*t." ;-) I was surprised that after having disbanded Cream (in reaction to hearing Music From Big Pink), Clapton formed another band with Ginger Baker, whose drumming style is diametrically opposed to that of Levon Helm and Jim Gordon. After the Blind Faith side project, Steve Winwood was back with Traffic full-time, and drummer/songwriter Jim Capaldi wanted to move to the front of the stage (on piano). He enlisted the services of two of his favorite drummers (mine too)---Jim Gordon and Roger Hawkins. Wish I had seen THAT lineup live! |
"I neglected to mention how much I dislike the attempt to combine Rock with Classical, a ridiculous notion imo" I don't know if it's ridiculous but I don't like it. "Clapton’s playing over the years has sure been hit-or-miss, all over the map". Yeah. I don't care for (or own) 461 O. Blvd. or anything after that but am still a fan of the earlier recordings. I stil own and listen to Layla, Fresh Cream, Disraeli Gears, Blind Faith, the John Mayall Beano album and the London Howlin' Wolf Sessions. That's definitely enough EC for me. |
Excellent point about the Prog audience, @stuartk! I’ve known some of those guys, who were exactly as you describe. Smug superiority to spare. I neglected to mention how much I dislike the attempt to combine Rock with Classical, a ridiculous notion imo. If I want to hear Pictures At An Exhibition, it sure ain’t gonna be by ELP. However, Matthew Fisher’s insertion of a J.S. Bach line in "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" is brilliant! Clapton’s playing over the years has sure been hit-or-miss, all over the map. Seems like he wants to be first one thing, then another. I respect the guy, but own only one of albums---the debut. |
"But Prog bands, they make music which assumes complicated song structures and hard-to-physically perform instrument parts are ends unto themselves. And the music is made as, it sounds to me, a form of bragging: see how good I/we am/are? At the risk of drawing the ire of perhaps some (or even many) here, I must disclose that I feel the same about the music of Frank Zappa. Sorry. ;-)" And there seem to be an analagous, "bragging" attitude among Prog fans-- "Prog is the best music and we are the most sophisticated music aficionados" or some such nonsense. I feel the same about shredder guitarists like Steve Vai (who of course, played with Zappa, early on)... they seem to be on a quest to see how little they can communicate with as many notes as possible-- the exact opposite of say, BB King! The live Derek and the Dominos material is certainly a much better showcase for the rhythm section than for Clapton, whose long solos seem pretty uninspired, compared to the studio versions od the same tunes.. Perhaps if EC had been sharing a stage with Duane for those shows, he would've risen to a higher level. |
Watching Mazzie’s new YouTube video tonight (the topic of which is examples of the Gospel influence in white Rock ’n’ Roll---yet he neglected to cite Elvis!) made me realize I had neglected to acknowledge one of the greatest-of-them-all American Rock ’n’ Roll bands: Derek & The Dominos! Eric Clapton is of course not American, but imho anyone could have been the guitarist/singer in that band, the rhythm section being as good as it was. Organist/singer Bobby Whitlock, bassist Carl Radle (Mazzy mis-pronounces Radle as Raddle, with a short "a".), and drummer extraordinaire Jim Gordon---a band as good as good gets. Those three plus Clapton were not only Derek & The Dominos, but also the core band on George Harrison’s All Things Must Pass album. That’s how Derek & The Dominos came to be; George had met Bobby when he (George) and Clapton went on the road with Delaney & Bonnie (that’s right---George Harrison was briefly a member of D & B’s band!). Bobby was the organist/singer in the band, and apparently George liked what he heard, ’cause when George was ready to make his ATMP album, he asked Eric and Bobby to put together a band for the recordings. I’ve extolled the talent of Jim Gordon before, and Mazzie agrees with me (as does Bobby Whitlock). Mazzie in the video, speaking of a number of the albums of Delaney & Bonnie, Leon Russell, and Joe Cocker, all of which contain the playing of Whitlock, Radle, and Gordon: "One of the most amazing rhythm sections. One of the tightest bands ever in Rock ’n’ Roll, and has that really great, great Soul sound. The drummer is Jim Gordon. Jim Gordon is arguably---probably---the best driving force drummer in Rock ’n’ Roll, in terms of he’s got the greatest groove in Rock ’n’ Roll. If you want that driving groove, Jim Gordon was the guy." Well, along with Roger Hawkins (Muscle Shoals), Earl Palmer (New Orleans), Kenny Buttrey (Nashville), Jim Keltner (Tulsa), and a few other Southern boys. ;-) |
When I was 17 I became attracted to Jazz by and for the advanced chops of the musicians (when you’re young, guys who play things which are physically difficult to perform---as opposed to things which sound "good", and/or serve the music---are considered to be better musicians than those who don’t.). So when Jazz-influenced players appeared in Rock ’n’ Roll in 1967 and 8 (okay, Earl Palmer and Jim Keltner were originally Jazzers, but they didn’t play Rock ’n’ Roll in that style), I initially got into the music they made. I went to The original Fillmore Auditorium to see and hear The Nice, Keith Emerson’s pre-ELP band. That phase of my musical path was short lived, cured by The Band. ;-) Somewhat ironic, as organist Garth Hudson was very Jazz-influenced, loving Bill Evans and other instrument masters of the genre. But Prog bands, they make music which assumes complicated song structures and hard-to-physically perform instrument parts are ends unto themselves. And the music is made as, it sounds to me, a form of bragging: see how good I/we am/are? At the risk of drawing the ire of perhaps some (or even many) here, I must disclose that I feel the same about the music of Frank Zappa. Sorry. ;-) |
@tomic601: I did a Google search and apparently I and Joy was bought out in 1995 and then, at some point, they closed. Too bad... it's not easy to find authentic bagels. I was a bagel baker for awhile and learned the traditional ways... Ironically, my years of baking eventually made me allergic to gluten and yeast. So far, at least, frequent listening to music has not had an analogous effect! |
Chuck Berry’s music is very simple, but kills me. Johnny Cashes too. I REALLY dislike music intentionally made to sound complicated, like Prog. A song can be simple, but great none-the-less. Two songs can be very similar in construction, the only difference between them being their chord progressions. One great, one pedestrian. |
I lived in Glendale for three months in '74. . . that was enough for me! However, later on I did find something to appreciate in Reseda-- "I and Joy's Bagels". I'd often travel from Santa Barbra to Riverside County to visit friends and always made a point of stopping at IAJ's hole-in-the-wall bakery to pick up a couple dozen on my way south. |