@bdp24:
"I know when I make my own statements (as apposed to Marty making his), I should use the term "my favorite" instead of "the best". But to tell you the truth, I choose to do that for a reason: I do it when I feel to do so is the only way I can make the point I am trying to make as dramatically as possible"
Well, OK-- at least you're aware of what you're doing. But there is so much hyperbole tossed around online and so many posters actually seem to believe that 1) if they like something it must therefore be "great" and 2) that art is a competition, like sports, that whenever I see such language used, I automatically assume the poster is just another aesthetically naive individual and move on. Others will no doubt respond differently.
@roxy54:
"...this is America, and in the USA, everything must be a contest, and there MUST be a number 1, a winner. That's probably one of the most unattractive things about American culture..."
So true, unfortunately and the stubborn persistence of this cultural attitude is evidenced by the "Best Of" category in this very forum!
As to Marty Stuart's assertion, well, that's a matter of taste. If one is going to hold up Tom Petty, then why not J. C. Mellancamp? Seems to me, JCM is every bit as good a songwriter as TP. And it seems to me that it could be argued that neither is a better songwriter than Springsteen.
For the record, none of them are favorites of mine. I don't have a horse in this race. My point is that I don't see, from a critical standpoint, how M. Stuart's assertion holds up, except as an expression of his admiration for T. Petty.
... which brings us ful circle, back to the tendency for us to automatically conflate what we like with what is "good"...
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@bdp24:
"
Both The Band and Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers toured with Dylan, and live recordings of some shows were released on albums. Compare the two. Both bands are playing similar music, in some cases the same songs. Which band do you think is "better"? Feel free to answer below."
I'd argue that these two bands had quite different perspectives.
Tom Petty was very journalistic-- he reported on his direct experience of the nitty gritty school of hard knocks. He reported from deep within the belly of the beast and was able to make the listener feel they werer right there with him. He was a great, visceral communicator of what was happening in the moment.
By contrast, as I see it, The Band viewed American culture as if from a mountain top and they seemed more interested in what might be termed a mythical dimension of America. Robbie Robertson's lyrics have more of the sense of a great novelist who creates and manipulates characters. It strikes me as a more "literary" approach. To what degree this might've been influenced by the fact he's Canadian is a question I'll leave for the more erudite to debate.
My 2 cents... |
@roxy54:
Thanks for your kind words. In retrospect, I believe I presented the differences in too much of a black-and-white fashion. After all, every songwriter has to have a "journalistic" eye for detail as well as a sense of how the present moment relates to larger themes. This doesn't mean I've changed my mind about my basic premise, though.
@bdp24:
Thanks for the positive affirmation. Although I personally prefer the Band's music to T. Petty's, I've never really thought very deeply about why that might be. I'd tend to agree that The Band's traditional influences were much more evident-- whether this means that T. Petty lacked such a foundation, I cannot say. T. Petty pretty much sounds to me like a Rock guy, through and through, whereas The Band sound like many older styles mixed up and fltered through a Country/Blues/Jazz sensibility. They sound like they have very deep roots that go way back before Rock-- perhaps this is my way of expressing something akin to your comments about T. Petty being "less substantial".
Like anyone else, I have my prejudices and they no doubt prevent me from appreciating aspects of T. Petty that might be obvious to his fans. I've never owned any T. Petty albums but The Band's "brown album" has been a steady companion since the mid 70's, so I'm far from objective!
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@bdp24:
Wow-- you were certainly in the right place at the right time!
I grew up in NY state and Woodstock was close by, but I was just a little too young (in jr. H. S.) at the time.
The father of one of my classmates was an MD and he had the disctinction of treating Henmdrix for something (don't recall what) before his performance.
You make an excellent point about the generation gap-- that explains a lot. |
... and of course, there have always been players who've had a more scholarly/musicological bent-- Bloomfield and Garcia, for example.
I've seen R. Ford a half dozen times. The only time I saw J. Mitchell was when I lived in Santa Barbara-- I saw the show with Metheny, Brecker, et al that was released as "Shadows and Light". Never saw Albert but saw Freddie and BB. Saw the Dead just a few times-- '73, '74, '77, '78 and a couple times in the eighties in Maine (don't recall the years). I was fortunate that Santa Barbara in the mid-70's was a paradise for live music. Everything from Leo Kotke to Ravi Shankar to Otis Rush to Oregon to Les McCann, Return to Forever, Bonnie Raitt, Santana, Bill Evans (the piano player), Jean Luc Ponty, Pat Metheny, Emmy Lou Harris. . . the list goes on and on.
I'm not familiar with D. Twilley's music. I was born in '56 and when I think of "50's music" I tend to think of Sha Na Na type stuff.
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@bdp24:
"And Los Lobos: Also in the mid-80’s I went to see Peter Case’s pre-solo career group The Plimsouls at a tiny "club" on Ventura Blvd. named The Garage (it was an actual garage, a converted car repair shop). My gal and I got there in time to hear the opening act---whose name was unfamiliar to me---start their set. As soon as they did. she and I looked at each other in utter disbelief, our mouths agape. They were INCREDIBLE! It was of course Los Lobos, of whom I became an instant fan"
I saw Los Lobos on their "Will the Wolf Survive" tour at Bowdoin College in Brunswick. What particularly shocked me was what great Blues players Rosas and Hidalgo were.
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That's Brunswick, Maine... down the road from Freeport. |
@marantz33;
"Love and respect to nearly every band mentioned here but just one listen to waiting for Columbus should put this issue to bed"
Just curious: did you ever hear Los Lobos in their prime, live ? ? ?
I'm a fan of WFC but Los Lobos were every bit as great when I saw them...
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@zerofox:
"That said, I think what makes him and the Heartbreakers special is that they are simply a pure rock and roll band and most importantly they didn’t try to do too much - just well executed rock and roll".
This strikes me as a fair/accurate assessment. There's nothing wrong with playing to your strengths and that's what they did.
I'm 65. "Break Down" didn't come out until I was out of HS and beginning to explore Jazz. Therefore, I probably wasn't as open to TP as I would've been, had I been a few years younger when they came onto the scene.
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I lived in Glendale for three months in '74. . . that was enough for me!
However, later on I did find something to appreciate in Reseda-- "I and Joy's Bagels". I'd often travel from Santa Barbra to Riverside County to visit friends and always made a point of stopping at IAJ's hole-in-the-wall bakery to pick up a couple dozen on my way south. |
@bdp24:
"I REALLY dislike music intentionally made to sound complicated, like Prog"
My feelings exactly.
I've listened to quite a few prog band recordings, on line in an effort to try to find one I liked. . . and failed.
No-one can like everthing, right? |
@tomic601:
I did a Google search and apparently I and Joy was bought out in 1995 and then, at some point, they closed.
Too bad... it's not easy to find authentic bagels.
I was a bagel baker for awhile and learned the traditional ways...
Ironically, my years of baking eventually made me allergic to gluten and yeast.
So far, at least, frequent listening to music has not had an analogous effect! |
"But Prog bands, they make music which assumes complicated song structures and hard-to-physically perform instrument parts are ends unto themselves. And the music is made as, it sounds to me, a form of bragging: see how good I/we am/are? At the risk of drawing the ire of perhaps some (or even many) here, I must disclose that I feel the same about the music of Frank Zappa. Sorry. ;-)"
And there seem to be an analagous, "bragging" attitude among Prog fans-- "Prog is the best music and we are the most sophisticated music aficionados" or some such nonsense.
I feel the same about shredder guitarists like Steve Vai (who of course, played with Zappa, early on)... they seem to be on a quest to see how little they can communicate with as many notes as possible-- the exact opposite of say, BB King!
The live Derek and the Dominos material is certainly a much better showcase for the rhythm section than for Clapton, whose long solos seem pretty uninspired, compared to the studio versions od the same tunes.. Perhaps if EC had been sharing a stage with Duane for those shows, he would've risen to a higher level.
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"I neglected to mention how much I dislike the attempt to combine Rock with Classical, a ridiculous notion imo"
I don't know if it's ridiculous but I don't like it.
"Clapton’s playing over the years has sure been hit-or-miss, all over the map".
Yeah. I don't care for (or own) 461 O. Blvd. or anything after that but am still a fan of the earlier recordings. I stil own and listen to Layla, Fresh Cream, Disraeli Gears, Blind Faith, the John Mayall Beano album and the London Howlin' Wolf Sessions. That's definitely enough EC for me.
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Clapton asserts he never invited G. baker to join Blind Faith and given the ongoing war between Baker and Bruce, which had thrust Clapton into the thankless role of perpetual mediator, it makes sense that he wasn't eager for a reunion with either of them. According to the liner notes in my Blind Faith deluxe, Baker "just showed up" at Clapton's home during a rehearsal and apparently, EC didn't have the will to refuse him. It's not clear to me whether Winwood had invited Baker or not, but I happen to like his playing with B. Faith. While Disraeli Gears is admittedly dated, I still enjoy listening to it,once in a great while, although I tend to skip over S.O.Y.L. -- heard that one a few too many times. Fresh Cream is my favorite Cream album because it's more bluesy, less psychedelic. There is a concert dvd of the version of Traffic you mention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocjSc7v83pk |
I'd assert that although most members of The Band were not "American" by birth, as a group they certainly produced music that continues to epitomize the sound and spirit of American music...
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You might as well claim that when Clapton plays the Blues, it's not American music because he was born in the UK. That strikes me as absurd. |
@bdp24:
"Let's just call both (U.S.A.) Americans and Canadians as North Americans. ;-) ".
Sure. Why not?
"I would argue that in some ways Americans from the North (or at least non-South) have more in common with Canadians than they do with Southerners"
You could very well be right. I've almost no exposure to the South so I can't say. My wife and I have been on 3 vacations to Canada, though and we love it up there.
"Do people think of Neil Young as an American, or a Canadian? How about Joni Mitchell? Leonard Cohen?"
Tough calls for me. I'd bet all three were heavily influenced by American music but the question is: are their artistic sensibilities more Canadian or American? ? ? Above my pay grade, I'm afraid. That's perhaps a question for a serious academic.
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Miles, IMHO, was one of the greatest in terms of his use of the silence between notes. . .
I'm not a fan of big bands/large emsembles so I can't comment on how this quality might be evident in music by Base or Duke. |
@slaw:
"You can’t argue with success"
History is littered with examples of amazing artists in many genres/media, who never achieved fame/fortune and many examples of hacks whose popularity and wealth far outweighed their artistic abilities.
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@bdp24:
"But there are many, many examples of great art and great success coming together in one place"
"Mass popularity sometimes comes from not just talent, but timing and good luck. In other cases it’s pure, hard work".
Of course. I never claimed, nor would I, that the above assertions are false. I'm of an artistic temperment myself; nothing you say about the realities of being an artist is news to me.
But I continue to (strenuously) disagree that popularity is "proof" of artistic merit. There is simply far too much evidence to the contrary!
It's entirely possible to be a great commercial success without delivering more than the sonic equivalent of fast food. Popular music is full of examples of this. Are these people "doing something right" ? Yeah, I guess, in terms of making money. Is it art? Hell no. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this point.
@winoguy17:
Harpswell in the summer is gorgeous-- lucky you!
Have you been to Wolf's Neck Park on Flying Point Rd., between Brunswick and Freeport?
My wife and I used to ride our bicycles out there from our home in Topsham.
We lived there nine years and still miss it--what a special place.
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@bdp245:
"What I above meant by saying you can’t argue with success, is not that "popularity is proof of artistic merit", or even that there aren’t examples of garbage that sells well, but rather that anything that is popular and does sell well is providing something of value to the people who like it, even if I myself don’t".
Gotcha. Thanks for the further clarification. Sorry It took me so long to fully grasp your point about "providing something of value". You're right-- in that respect, you "can't argue with success".
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@bdp24
"...has everybody heard Joan Osborne singing "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" backed by the bros?"
Yes, indeed. Stand-out performance !
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