Speaking of The Funk Brothers: has everybody heard Joan Osborne singing "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" backed by the bros? It’s in the documentary on that outstanding band, and is astoundingly great, the equal imo of the original (which features the bass playing of James Jamerson), which is one of my three all-time favorite songs (the other two being Brian Wilson’s "God Only Knows" and a 3-way tie between The Band’s "The Weight", Iris DeMent’s "No Time To Cry", and Procol Harum’s "A Whiter Shade Of Pale". What, no Beatles or Stones?
And speaking of The Band: I am currently reading Levon Helm: Rock, Roll, Ramble; The Inside Story Of The Man, The Music, And The Midnight Ramble by John W. Barry (with a foreword by Ringo Starr), from which I have learned much. A very welcome addition to my music book library.
One New Wave band I did and do like is Squeeze. Excellent songwriting, acceptable singing, and good live (I saw them in London in 1982). Are The Pretenders considered New Wave? Yeah, I know: what’s in a name? ;-)
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I heard Jourard when he was in The Motels, who were pretty big in L.A. in the early-80's. At that time I was playing with a real fine songwriter-singer who loved them, but they didn't ring my bells; too New Wave for me (the same reason I don't like The Attractions. Listen to how they perform Soul music---on Costello's Get Happy!!, then listen to how The Funk Brothers---the Motown house band---and The Swampers---the great Muscle Shoals recording band---do it. No comparison imo).
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Agreed, @onhwy61. Though he and his band are not amongst my favorites, he and they certainly had a very long and artistically and commercially successful run. Good for them. I also like that Tom stood up to his record company when they were intending to raise the price on their LP’s, starting with his at-the-time new one.
Speaking of Petty’s large-scale success always brings me back to Dwight Twilley, whose songs, singing, and band I have always greatly preferred to Tom’s. They plow the generally same field, though Dwight’s music contains far more of a 1950’s influence that does Tom’s, perhaps why I find it more to my liking. The mass audience disagreed, rewarding Tom to a much greater extent than they did Dwight.
Even more to my liking is Dave Edmunds, my favorite 1970’s/80’s artist. But that’s another story for another day. Let me just say that both as a solo artist and as a member of the super-group Rockpile (with Nick Lowe, Billy Bremner, and Terry Williams)---and as a producer-for-hire---Dave was one of the very best sounding live performers I’ve ever seen and heard. His 1983 show at The Ritz in NYC was my ex’s all-time favorite live shows. She has great taste. ;-) |
So I’m watching A Bronx Tale, and in one scene "99 And A Half (Won’t Do)" comes on the radio. I am instantly reminded that the studio band backing Wilson Pickett on the song---known as The Swampers---are just unbelievably, stupendously great. Tough, wicked coolness. THAT is what The Stones have for all their history been trying to sound like, and failing.
The Swampers---whose members include the superb rhythm section of Roger Hawkins on drums and David Hood on bass---are legendary amongst better musicians. Though not a band in the same sense that the self-contained (doing all the singing, playing all the instruments, and at least some if not all the songwriting) ones we’re talking about here are, they are imo the best band I have ever heard, American or otherwise. Do they qualify as a Rock ’n’ Roll band, as Marty Stuart was speaking of? I believe so.
You’ve heard The Swampers too, on hundreds of recordings. Aretha---and all the other R & B artists Atlantic Records’ producer Jerry Wexler took down to Muscle Shoals to record, Traffic---and members Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi’s solo albums, Boz Scaggs, Paul Simon (give a listen to "Kodachrome"---omg, the drumming is insanely great!), hundreds of others, including, yes, The Stones. |
@stuartk: I’m uncomfortable admitting this now (it sounds pretty elitist ;-), but in the 1970’s---when my peers and I considered most Pop music (non-Classical, non-Jazz, non-Blues, non-Country) to be getting really bad (except for the stuff we liked, of course ;-), I and those I was involved with were of the opinion that a band/group/artists’ level of popularity was most often the inverse of it’s quality. That was a direct result of us liking music that was ignored and/or not liked by a mass audience, that audience liking stuff we didn’t. I didn’t then consider that to be somewhat influenced by a feeling of smug superiority, but I now fear it was.
What I above meant by saying you can’t argue with success, is not that "popularity is proof of artistic merit", or even that there aren’t examples of garbage that sells well, but rather that anything that is popular and does sell well is providing something of value to the people who like it, even if I myself don’t. In other words, popularity is also not proof of a lack of artistic merit, at least to those who find such merit in the music. That it is wrong for me to apply my standards and/or tastes to those who have dissimilar standards and/or tastes is what I was implying. |
A lot of my favorite music makers never achieved (or if current have yet to achieve) mass popularity, instead remaining on the cult level. Some of them prefer it that way (or at least claim to ;-), and many realistically shouldn’t have expected or anticipated anything more.
One benefit of not becoming huge is that it may result in a longer career---Richard Thompson, for example. Those who rise quickly many times also disappear just as quickly. Serious artists just want to spend their lives doing what they love; not becoming huge stars known to a massive audience, but being life-long professional musicians, singers, and/or songwriters. Many do it on a semi-poverty level, barely supporting themselves, if that. Here’s a somewhat unknown secret in the music business: many musicians---even those somewhat well known---rely on a significant other (a girlfriend, most commonly) for financial support. They have grown up doing nothing but making music, and have no other job skills. They will tell you: "I make music not because I want to (though they of course do), but because I have to." It’s a hunger as primal as food and sex.
But I have long agreed with @slaws sentiment: You can’t argue with success. They’re doing something right ;-) . That level of popularity is sometimes achieved by pandering to the lowest common denominator, as do crass politicians (tell ’em what they want to hear.). I’m thinking of acts like Kiss. But those are usually mere entertainers, no one taking them seriously anyway. But there are many, many examples of great art and great success coming together in one place. There are those who like to keep their favorite artist(s) to themselves, which though I can understand is the exact opposite of myself. As ya’ll have come to know, I do everything I can to bring under-acknowledged ad/or appreciated artists to the attention of others. Many others here do the same.
Mass popularity sometimes comes from not just talent, but timing and good luck. In other cases it’s pure, hard work. There are cases of an artists toiling for years to a cult audience, then suddenly having a hit record---Bonnie Raitt, for example. When that happens, I always watch to see if that success results in a decrease in the quality of the work; the artist---having now tasted success and liking its flavour---decides to do whatever it takes to retain that popularity. When that happens, I just move on. There are plenty of others deserving my attention (and disposable income ;-) . |
A quote attributed to many master Jazz musicians---Miles Davis, Count Basie, and Duke Ellington to name just three---goes "The Notes you don't play are as important as those you do." I consider that essential musical wisdom.
I've been watching Jackson Browne's series of YouTube videos (made and posted during the fake-pandemic ;-), and have been very impressed with the musicians he chose to accompany him (he has always displayed his great taste in such matters), including the great Greg Lietz. The videos have also reminded me of just what a superb songwriter Jackson is. |
Let’s just think of (U.S.A.) Americans and Canadians as North Americans. ;-) . I would argue that in some ways Americans from the North (or at least non-South) have more in common with Canadians than they do with Southerners.
Levon Helm---born and raised in Arkansas---was the heart and soul of The Band (though Richard Manuel was very soulful), his voice a major element of their trademark sound. The other members of The Band cite American songwriters, singers, and musicians as their role models.
Do people think of Neil Young as an American artist, or a Canadian one? How about Joni Mitchell? Leonard Cohen? The Guess Who? Steppenwolf? |
@orgillian197: You are correct in the literal sense about The Band being not American (or at least 4 of the 5 members weren't), but I above explained my admittedly thin excuse for overlooking that fact. ;-) Isn't it ironic, then, that The Band are credited as being if not THE origins of what we now call Americana music, at least one of it's primary sources.
For those who have yet to discover and explore the music of a band considered by many (including Elvis Costello, Richard Thompson, Dave Edmunds & Nick Lowe, John Hiatt, and many of our other favorite artists) to be amongst America's greatest---NRBQ, do yourself a huge favour and do so. One of the very best---and most entertaining---live bands I've ever seen and heard. |
Ha! Yeah, but The Attractions are on only a coupla songs, which I skip. ;-) Just kidding. I loved Costello’s debut (I got the UK Stiff Records import before it was released stateside), not knowing at the time the band was comprised of members of Clover, from my neck-o-the-woods (well, Marin County).
When the follow-up came out, I didn’t care for it at all. The playing on the debut was much more soulful, with a fairly deep pocket; on the follow-up the playing sounds rushed (English drummers are well-known to play at the front edge of the pocket. Ringo was an exception, as was the studio drummer who played on the early Kinks albums.), and "clacky". Plus, I didn’t like the production, the sound of the recordings. Too glassy-sounding, not organic enough for me. Too bad he didn’t have Dave Edmunds produce him instead of Nick Lowe (don’t care for his production style. Edmunds is far more to my liking).
If Costello likes the drumming of Pete Thomas, well, we just have different tastes, and will have to agree to disagree. Pete tensions his drum heads far too tight for me---the drums don’t "breathe". Very shallow tone, no depth. But hey, he’s done alright for himself, hasn’t he? ;-) I felt the exact same way when I heard The Red Hot Cilli Peppers’ drummer on one of the Dixie Chicks albums---he’s playing a piccolo snare drum, the sound of which I despise. Ruined the album for me! And then there is The Attractions bassist (don’t recall his name): he plays a Rickenbacker! How "girly" is that? ;-) Real men play Fenders.
But what really makes The Attractions unlistenable is the cheesy sound of Steve Nieve’s organ. He needs to get himself a Hammond and Leslie! He sounds far too "white" for me, in both tone and style.
As for Costello himself: he’s a mighty fine songwriter, but his vibrato is WAY outta control. Far too much of it; Elvis, baby, just sing the note---stop trying so hard to prove you’re a "good" singer.
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@jaym759: "Lightweights"---that adjective better characterizes The Heartbreakers than did my use of "unsubstantial."
Another band whose talents don’t rise to the level of the songwriting---imo---are The Attractions. The only Costello album I like enough to own is King Of America, produced by T Bone Burnett, who has great taste in musicians.
The musicians heard on King Of America include the great Earl Palmer, Ray Brown, James Burton, Jerry Scheff, Ron Tutt, Jo-El Sonnier, Mitchell Froom, T-Bone Wolk, Jim Keltner, and David Hildago. Damn!
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I kept my copy of Fresh Cream (and the John Mayall album, as well as it’s followup with Peter Green playing guitar), but ditched Disraeli Gears long ago. Did you hear Atlantic Records President Ahmet Ertegan’s reaction to hearing the album tapes? He characterized the music as "psychedelic h*rsesh*t." ;-)
I was surprised that after having disbanded Cream (in reaction to hearing Music From Big Pink), Clapton formed another band with Ginger Baker, whose drumming style is diametrically opposed to that of Levon Helm and Jim Gordon.
After the Blind Faith side project, Steve Winwood was back with Traffic full-time, and drummer/songwriter Jim Capaldi wanted to move to the front of the stage (on piano). He enlisted the services of two of his favorite drummers (mine too)---Jim Gordon and Roger Hawkins. Wish I had seen THAT lineup live!
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Excellent point about the Prog audience, @stuartk! I’ve known some of those guys, who were exactly as you describe. Smug superiority to spare. I neglected to mention how much I dislike the attempt to combine Rock with Classical, a ridiculous notion imo. If I want to hear Pictures At An Exhibition, it sure ain’t gonna be by ELP. However, Matthew Fisher’s insertion of a J.S. Bach line in "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" is brilliant!
Clapton’s playing over the years has sure been hit-or-miss, all over the map. Seems like he wants to be first one thing, then another. I respect the guy, but own only one of albums---the debut. |
Watching Mazzie’s new YouTube video tonight (the topic of which is examples of the Gospel influence in white Rock ’n’ Roll---yet he neglected to cite Elvis!) made me realize I had neglected to acknowledge one of the greatest-of-them-all American Rock ’n’ Roll bands: Derek & The Dominos!
Eric Clapton is of course not American, but imho anyone could have been the guitarist/singer in that band, the rhythm section being as good as it was. Organist/singer Bobby Whitlock, bassist Carl Radle (Mazzy mis-pronounces Radle as Raddle, with a short "a".), and drummer extraordinaire Jim Gordon---a band as good as good gets. Those three plus Clapton were not only Derek & The Dominos, but also the core band on George Harrison’s All Things Must Pass album.
That’s how Derek & The Dominos came to be; George had met Bobby when he (George) and Clapton went on the road with Delaney & Bonnie (that’s right---George Harrison was briefly a member of D & B’s band!). Bobby was the organist/singer in the band, and apparently George liked what he heard, ’cause when George was ready to make his ATMP album, he asked Eric and Bobby to put together a band for the recordings.
I’ve extolled the talent of Jim Gordon before, and Mazzie agrees with me (as does Bobby Whitlock). Mazzie in the video, speaking of a number of the albums of Delaney & Bonnie, Leon Russell, and Joe Cocker, all of which contain the playing of Whitlock, Radle, and Gordon:
"One of the most amazing rhythm sections. One of the tightest bands ever in Rock ’n’ Roll, and has that really great, great Soul sound. The drummer is Jim Gordon. Jim Gordon is arguably---probably---the best driving force drummer in Rock ’n’ Roll, in terms of he’s got the greatest groove in Rock ’n’ Roll. If you want that driving groove, Jim Gordon was the guy."
Well, along with Roger Hawkins (Muscle Shoals), Earl Palmer (New Orleans), Kenny Buttrey (Nashville), Jim Keltner (Tulsa), and a few other Southern boys. ;-) |
When I was 17 I became attracted to Jazz by and for the advanced chops of the musicians (when you’re young, guys who play things which are physically difficult to perform---as opposed to things which sound "good", and/or serve the music---are considered to be better musicians than those who don’t.).
So when Jazz-influenced players appeared in Rock ’n’ Roll in 1967 and 8 (okay, Earl Palmer and Jim Keltner were originally Jazzers, but they didn’t play Rock ’n’ Roll in that style), I initially got into the music they made. I went to The original Fillmore Auditorium to see and hear The Nice, Keith Emerson’s pre-ELP band. That phase of my musical path was short lived, cured by The Band. ;-) Somewhat ironic, as organist Garth Hudson was very Jazz-influenced, loving Bill Evans and other instrument masters of the genre.
But Prog bands, they make music which assumes complicated song structures and hard-to-physically perform instrument parts are ends unto themselves. And the music is made as, it sounds to me, a form of bragging: see how good I/we am/are? At the risk of drawing the ire of perhaps some (or even many) here, I must disclose that I feel the same about the music of Frank Zappa. Sorry. ;-) |
Chuck Berry’s music is very simple, but kills me. Johnny Cashes too. I REALLY dislike music intentionally made to sound complicated, like Prog.
A song can be simple, but great none-the-less. Two songs can be very similar in construction, the only difference between them being their chord progressions. One great, one pedestrian. |
@zerofox: Petty was great on that Shandling episode! (I miss Gary a lot) Tom's a not bad actor. I loved when he referred to fellow-guest Clint Black as Roy Rogers. ;-) |
@onhwy61: The Blasters---now we’re talkin’! I saw them live many times, including in the mid-80’s when they backed Big Joe Turner on his last appearance in L.A., at Club Lingerie on Sunset Blvd.. Little Richard’s tenor sax man Lee Allen was in the band then, as was of course Blasters lead guitarist and songwriter Dave Alvin. The last time I saw them was in 2003, at an outdoor Rockabilly festival held in SoCal , complete with a Vintage Car show. Lots of pompadours (on the guys), short bangs (on the gals)---Rockabilly chicks are SO hot ;-) , tats, piercings, and cuffed jeans were plentiful amongst the audience members. I performed on a smaller stage in an instrumental trio at that show prior to The Blasters set.
And Los Lobos: Also in the mid-80’s I went to see Peter Case’s pre-solo career group The Plimsouls at a tiny "club" on Ventura Blvd. named The Garage (it was an actual garage, a converted car repair shop). My gal and I got there in time to hear the opening act---whose name was unfamiliar to me---start their set. As soon as they did. she and I looked at each other in utter disbelief, our mouths agape. They were INCREDIBLE! It was of course Los Lobos, of whom I became an instant fan. By the way, their upcoming new album---due out shortly---is a tribute to THEIR roots. Can’t wait to hear it!
Speaking of a roots-tribute album: The Band’s 1973 album Moondog Matinee is comprised of recordings of songs they had performed in their early-60’s live shows, when they were named The Hawks. An "oldies" album unlike any you’ve heard before or since. Even after becoming The Band, they continued to perform Little Richard’s "Slippin’ And Slidin’’’ and Marvin Gaye’s "Baby Don’t Do It" (an incredible version opens their great live album Rock Of Ages) in their live shows. Can you picture Tom Petty singing either of those songs? ;-)
But hey, a favorite artist of mine---Lucinda Williams---thinks highly enough of Petty to record an album of his songs. |
Agree @stuartk. It just occurred to me that another element to remember is that The Band are actually from a generation before Petty and his guys---The Band of the 50’s, Petty of the 60’s. That was one reason Petty seemed out of place to me in The Travelling Wilburys; Tom seemed like a kid in a group of adults.
By the time of Petty’s debut, I had already followed the musical path back to the origins of what lead to Rock ’n’ Roll: The Carter Family in Hillbilly---onward to Hank Williams and the other late-40’s/early-50’s Hillbilly singers (including Lefty Frizzell, whose "Long Black Veil" The Band included on Music From Big Pink), and the Jump Blues of the 40’s and early-50’s (Joe Turner, Louis Jordan, Big Jay McNeely), from which Elvis "borrowed" much of his early sound and style.
And you’re right---The Band’s music reveals all those influences, and more. Petty & THB sound like they had heard nothing before The British Invasion---very shallow roots. I don’t know what it was like in Florida (Petty’s stomping grounds), but in the Bay Area (mine), Roots music was what all serious musicians were diving into.
Jerry Garcia was playing Bluegrass in Palo Alto (just a few miles north on the El Camino Real from my hometown of Cupertino) before forming a Rock band, his future-buddy David Grisman doing the same in Mill Valley (across the bay from San Francisco). In the early-70’s we had Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks, Commander Cody & His Lost Planet Airmen, Asleep At The Wheel, The Electric Flag (with Mike Bloomfield), Charlie Musselwhite (with the great Robben Ford on guitar. He later worked with Joni Mitchell, Miles Davis, and George Harrison, and was in The Yellowjackets. Damn!), Maria Muldaur, and so many more superior artists.
After hearing all them live in clubs and on record (plus all the bands and artists Bill Graham brought into The Fillmore Auditorium and Winterland---Albert King and other such masters), Petty seemed like a light-weight! Yet, to me, Twilley doesn’t. He has a distinct-1950’s influence evident in his music that is absent in Petty’s. Perhaps it’s just that I’m more fond of 50’s music, Petty of 60’s. |
Excellent insights into the lyrics of J.R. Robertson, @stuartk!
Speaking of the American aspect: One reason I hold The Band in much higher regard than TP & THB is because of the depth of their musical roots. Organist Garth Hudson is a profound musician with an encyclopedic knowledge and appreciation of American Jazz and European Classical musics. Drummer/singer Levon Helm is deeply rooted in Blues and Hillbilly, having grown up listening to both musics on the radio in Arkansas. His first pro gig was as drummer in 50's Rockabilly singer Ronnie Hawkins band (the source of course for The Band's first name, The Hawks.)---Robertson's too. Bassist/singer Rick Danko loved traditional Country/Hillbilly, hearing it on The Grand Old Opry way up in Canada. Pianist/singer Richard Manuel had one of the greatest voices in the entire history of Rock 'n' Roll, deeply influenced by Ray Charles, Bobby Bland, and the other 50's black singers.
Not to downplay the talents of TP & THB, but to me they sound far less "substantial". They sound like a "suburban" group to me---the sound of which I am very familiar, if you know what I mean. Individually, they are rather ordinary. Pianist Benmont Tench has almost no style, nothing that makes his playing special .Reminds me of Paul Shaffer ;-) . The bassist and drummer, although sufficient, again: no distinctive style, no personality. Guitarist Mike Campbell is not bad, though I don't much care for his tone (too "thick", too distorted.). And Tom? I really don't like his voice, and the way he writes his songs in keys which require him to strain to reach the highest notes in the song melodies. And he sounds entirely too "white" for my tastes; not much soul or depth.
But that's just me. Sorry for sounding so negative, it's all good. I would say there is no bad music, but then there's Black Sabbath. ;-) |
Yeah @fuzztone, and NRBQ live are just incredible. Terry Adams’ piano and clavinet playing on stage, as well as Al Anderson’s guitar playing and Joey Spampinato’s bass playing (Keith Richard’s choice as Bill Wyman’s replacement in The Stones. Joey turned him down, choosing to remain in the true greatest Rock ’n’ Roll band in the world ;-) is about as amazing as any musician I’ve ever seen, and I saw Hendrix twice ;-) .
And then there’s the songs; Anderson left the band to concentrate full time on songwriting, relocating to Nashville. NRBQ have gone through three line-ups over their long history---dating back to 1968! (Terry Adams being the sole constant), and have made a LOT of albums. I have ’em all. |
I know when I make my own statements (as apposed to Marty making his), I should use the term "my favorite" instead of "the best". But to tell you the truth, I choose to do that for a reason: I do it when I feel to do so is the only way I can make the point I am trying to make as dramatically as possible. Often because I am attempting to help others appreciate about an artist/band that which has so far eluded them. Artists/bands whom, I believe, deserve more appreciation (and, okay, success) than they have enjoyed.
When I see The Rolling Stones routinely referred to as "The Greatest Rock ’n’ Roll Band In The World" (a phrase created, by the way, by their publicist!), repeated mindlessly simply because it’s the "common wisdom", I see red. I’ve seen The Stones live, and they were terr-i-ble.
I saw Tom and his band live, and to my tastes they were kind of pedestrian, like a hometown band whose members you know. Nothing special at all. But then I’ve seen a lot of really, really great bands and solo artists, and have rather high standards (if I do say so myself ;-) . Marty does too, and I have no idea why he holds TP & THB in such high regard. But when I don’t understand something, I consider that a failing on my part.
Now Marty Stuart And His Fabulous Superlatives: THERE is a great band! NRBQ’s live shows are legendary, and deservedly so. Awesome! Dave Edmunds, my ex’s (26 years together) favorite live show of all-time. Rockpile (Dave Edmunds, Nick Lowe, Billy Bremner, Terry Williams)---the greatest Super Group of them all (oops, there I go again). Of course Edmunds and Rockpile are from the UK, so are ineligible for Marty’s list. ;-)
Another pertinent comparison: I heard the debut album by The Dwight Twilley Band (Sincerely), and was flabbergasted! What a great, great album, instantly in my all-time Top 10. I then saw them on a coupla TV shows, lip-syncing to a recording. Interestingly, Tom Petty, whose own debut had just had been released, was "playing" bass in the band (the original Twilley band had no permanent bassist). I bought the Petty album, and was, frankly, rather underwhelmed. The second I liked even less.
Yet Petty & THB developed into major Rock Stars, and Twilley, after one solo hit ("Girls", I think) after drummer/singer Phil Seymour left the group, faded into obscurity. For those who like Tom Campbell’s guitar playing, give a listen to Bill Pitcock IV on Sincerely (and it’s follow-up, Twilley Don’t Mind). No comparison. For you guitarists: except for Ry Cooder, the greatest tone I’ve heard live was that of Pitcock. A Gibson ES335 plugged into a pair of blackface Deluxe Reverb’s, an MXR digital delay in line between the two amps. Rock ’n’ Roll, baby!
But what makes a band great? Here’s another interesting and instructive comparison: Both The Band and Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers toured with Dylan, and live recordings of some shows were released on albums. Compare the two. Both bands are playing similar music, in some cases the same songs. Which band do you think is "better"? Feel free to answer below. ;-)
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