Lyngdorf TDAI-3400
Quick question about running an out board DAC. Would you not then be converting the Digital in your out board DAC to analog then back again to digital inside the TDIA? seems this is not optimum and better to use the internal DAC only or am I missing something? I've been eyeing these units too with interest. |
@shkong78 It definitely has its moments of competing with a SET amplifier. Ultimately it will never best a SET amplifier, but I do have to say it comes very close, but it doesn't mimic the 2nd or 3rd harmonic distortions that a SET can produce in spades which are part of the reason one wants a tube amplifier, that and the lack of crossover distortion which both amp topologies seems to posess. I'm sure I'll get my Lyngdorf issue resolved eventually, but I'm a tad irritated with why its taking so long to get it addressed. Maybe they are too busy with sales as the TDAI-3400 has been an extremely hot selling item for Lyngdorf. |
I will add that digital room correction is a mixed bag. If the software is trying to heavily boost a null in the bass then it could easily cause your amplifier to clip in the bass even at modest volume levels. Audyssey XT32 limited their bass boost to 12 dB on room correction however even that is excessive IMHO. I no longer use room correction software as I prefer the natural sound of the room and speakers over anything software engineers have been able to achieve artificially!! On perfectly natural sounding speakers, room correction always sounds slightly artificial to my ears. Some speakers will of course sound better corrected. |
Since you asked, this little update is for shkong78 and anyone else who may be interested in my findings thus far. First of all, I have about a hundred hours and counting--I believe Bill (grannyring) indicated that the unit may need a lot more time than that to reach its full potential, so consider my report here in that context. I have been all over the place in my thinking on the 3400. There have been sessions when I was ready to put my Line Magnetic 508ia integrated and Lampizator Atlantic up for sale, so enamored I was with the sound from the 3400. There have been other sessions where I found myself missing the immediacy and eerie presence of my SET amp. I found myself wondering if I could get the best of both worlds by using the 3400 as a preamp and running the 508ia through it. I have not yet tried that, so nothing to report there, but I may give it a whirl at some point. For now, I have been content to take the full measure of the 3400 just as it is until I feel the break-in process is complete. There is no doubt that the 3400 is an incredible unit, and I am having a blast with it. I have never had better bass in my system than I have now, and the presentation overall is very natural and balanced, with excellent sound staging. There have been several sessions when I have just sat there grinning, utterly mesmerized by the sound. Without a doubt, there are things about the 3400 that I like more than any other amp or DAC I have ever owned, including the bass, fullness of sound, and imaging, which is pinpoint clear. This is by far the most holographic experience I have ever had with non-tube equipment. The music really is enveloping. I had feared that the 3400 might be a bit clinical or sterile, but that is not the case at all. It sounds wonderful, and I think there may be further gains to be had with more break-in and finding the best AC cable, USB cable, and speaker cables to run with it. I would not say that it is "match" for my SET amp--rather, it is actually better in some ways, and perhaps close enough in others. That is exactly what I am trying to decide before making this leap official. |
Sorry to hear that Jonathan. As you know I also have the Encores and the Lyngdorf 3400 but since I was lately very busy at work I did not have a chance to really sit down and play with the unit. The only thing I noticed initially was that the Lyngdorf was getting hot (like class A amp) at higher volume, let's say -8db. I contacted Lyngdorf and was assured that that's OK. I hope to have more time very soon so I can really spend some time with my rig. BTW, I bought my unit from Tony at Ellington and also highly recommend him. Thanks to "grannyring". Hope things will work out for you. Maybe just a glitch of some type. |
Oops! Walter I posted prior to seeing your reply above. Thanks a lot for providing such a straightforward listening impression as you always seem to do. You and Jonathan have provided terrific insight into this product and that is much appreciated. No doubt that it is an excellent and very special audio product. Charles |
Hi Charles, I would say that my impressions are preliminary, because I believe I have only scratched the surface on what the Lyngdorf can do and be in my system. It is so fun, and so versatile. And it sounds great, too! So far, I do not quite have the "goose bump" factor with it that I get with my LM 508ia on some recordings, but I am not so sure that I won't get there with the 3400, which is so very impressive in so many ways. For one thing, it has much better range of volume control than the 508ia, and it sounds better both at lower and higher volumes, maintaining its character up and down the dial. I love that! The low end is much more authoritative through the 3400, and the sound overall is better balanced, whereas the LM 508 excels in the mid range, but lacks the punch and visceral impact of the 3400, which is not to say that the 508 won't rattle the china in your cabinets. It will, but the 3400 holds together better at higher volumes and never shows any signs of strain whatsoever. In short, at this point, I would say there are trade offs, and one's preference would depend largely on one's sonic priorities. I could live happily with either set-up, and would have a hard time at this moment choosing which way to go. I will be conducting some experiments this weekend to see if I can get a better handle on all of this. First I plan to run the 508 through the 3400 and run room correction to see how that compares with the 3400 on its own. Then I will remove the 3400 and put back in the 508 and the tube-rectified Lampi Atlantic, which is just an incredible DAC (very different and more dynamic and balanced than other Lampi DACs I've heard). This has been my reference for two years, so I know this sound well, but since I have been listening to the Lyngdorf for a full week, it will be interesting to hear it again after adjusting to the Lyngdorf sound. That might well be telling. |
@waltersalas I just PM’d you as I have an idea or two for you. Making what amounts to a system change, less the speakers, will take some time to fine tune to reach your sonic goals such as more midrange presence and intimacy. I have done it, but it took me a year or so. Carefully chosen tweaks and cabling will deliver the tube like mids you want. Certainly so close that you will be satisfied. You already know these things take time to fine tune. I sure hope Lyngdorf has a good answer for @jcacopo. Frustrating to have a new piece and not be able to sort out an issue so one can listen peacefully. |
Shadorne 9-20-2018 +1. My thoughts exactly. @JCarcopo, perhaps the unit is working as designed, but the room correction function is doing exactly what Shadorne is saying. I know that the DAC circuit at the output of the DEQX HDP-5 I use as my preamp can be clipped if any bass frequencies are boosted for room correction by more than about 6 db, depending on the frequency content of the music. In my case, though, exactly what the HDP-5 is doing for room correction, at every frequency, is visible and adjustable manually, via a computer that can be connected to it. Does the 3400 provide visibility into the characteristics of the corrections it introduces? Regards, -- Al |
Hi Waltersalas, I’m looking forward to your upcoming listening impressions with the system maneuvering you propose. You make an exceptionally compelling case for the Lyngdorf, that is for certain. The LM 608ia provides those elusive "goosebump" moments (which I totally understand). If further burn-in time and fine tuning tweaks could very possibly get the Lyngdorf to the "goosebump" level. If so then overall the Lyngdorf would be the superior choice. Even without the "goosebumps" the Lyngdorf exceeds the LM 508ia in several very meaningful sonic parameters. Again I thank you for your always clear and very descriptive writing. Charles |
@charles1dad I hope to get some response from Lyngdorf very soon. Hopefully they will swap units, but I fear the Lyngdorf is boosting certain frequencies which is causing the clipping problem. If that is the case I'll need to reposition the speakers and hope to fix the issue with placement even though its well nigh perfect in my room atm. I will say when it's playing properly and not clipping its amazing sounding at higher volume levels. |
An update to my original post after about two weeks of listening... First of all, the amp's sound has really started to settle in and relax. At first it had a bit of a congested and tight sound to it. Not really bad, just not great. I estimate I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 hours on it so far, and I leave it turned on 24/7 as some folks have suggested. As a reminder, I primarily play vinyl through it, and while I have been exploring the digital features of the amp, I'm still listening to 90% or more in the analog realm. THE BIGGEST difference I have experienced so far is when I switched from RCA cables to XLR between my phono preamp and the Lyngdorf. I bought some Pangea XLR cables, of which I have heard great things, and connected them the other night. What I heard after that was just mind boggling! It's the first time for me to use balanced cables in a system, and all I can say is I'm a believer. EVERYTHING sounds so much better. This is the best I have ever heard music sound in any system I have owned. Adding the high end analog inputs to this amp is essential, in case anyone considering this amp is on the fence. As for digital... I've been plugging my MacBook Pro into the USB input of the amp and playing a variety of FLAC and hi-rez files to test the sound capabilities of these features. To be honest, the sound is really good, but it doesn't sound nearly as good as the analog side to me in the current configuration. It just sounds like really good digital sound, which is just OK IMO. I am seriously considering adding a music server to the chain (still researching), as I know that most decent servers are said to sound much better than a MacBook Pro. Cheers, Peter |
Peter, thanks for your post. This is very encouraging for me especially, since I play a lot of vinyl. I would love to try XLR, but unfortunately, my Allnic H1201 is RCA only. I hope you find a music server that suits you. I've been pretty pleased with my Aurender X100L. It sounds good to me, I can stream TIDAL through it, and it has 6 TB of storage. |
@JCarcopo, I took a look at the manual for the 3400, and here are some things that appear to me may be worth trying: 1) There is a limiter function that can be engaged via the menus. Try that, if you already haven’t. 2) The section in the manual on RoomPerfect states as follows: You can always add room measurements to increase the RoomKnowledge, and if you have a bit too much bass, we recommend taking a couple of measurements within 50cm/1.5ft of the walls and ceiling when above 90% RoomKnowledge.Perhaps doing that would resolve the problem, while not reducing overall bass response to an unacceptable degree. 3) After looking at the manual the answer to the question I raised previously still isn’t clear to me, namely whether or not the unit can provide visibility into the specific characteristics of the room corrections. Perhaps that can be obtained in the screens that are depicted in the "Voicing Setup" section of the manual, or perhaps not. But if it can be, seeing exactly what the corrections are may provide a clue as to how to address the problem. And perhaps the solution would be creation of a suitable "voicing filter," to reduce the magnitude of one or more specific boosts the RoomPerfect function has introduced. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
@almarg Thanks for the help. I already have the limiter engaged. Lyngdorf finally got back to me, apparently my issue ticket was left on the wrong desk. They want me to upload a copy of the backup settings to drop box and let them analyze it to see what's going on. There's is a dip around 100hz based on a prior manual room correction measurement using REW. It was being corrected through Roon though not as aggressively, but the Lyngdorf can add up to 10db of gain to compensate. This should still allow me to turn the unit volume up to 0db, but I'm having issues at -7db so something isn't right. I'll get the file to Lyngdorf so maybe they can shed some light on what's going on. |
I've had my eye on the TDAI-2170 and now the 3400. I came across this YouTube video comparing I believe a tube setup vs. the 3400. I know you can't judge sound quality thru a YouTube video, but I definitely thought the snare drum was a lot more believable with the tube setup. Any one else hear the same thing? Gary https://youtu.be/2AEzr6MhYpU |
Just wanted to share my latest experience with the 3400 and the Encores. I'm going to add the Oppo 205 to this, as I use it as my digital source for everything but streaming. That is taken care of by Tidal/Roon/Nucleus +. So, I have about 200 SACDs, some DVDAs and a few Bluray audio discs. In all my previous setups I had to listen to all of the above via analog outs on my Oppo. Digital out could only be used to handle Red Book CDs. As good as the sound of all those high resolution disks was I slowly started losing interest in them. Once I got the Lyngdorf, I started experimenting with the digital out in my Oppo via HDMI out (Main) and the HDMI input of my Lyngdorf. Since the TDIA accepts only PCM through the HDMI in, I had to make sure that PCM and not DSD is being sent by the Oppo. I connected both units via pretty generic HDMI cable and listened to several of my SACDs, mostly jazz and vocals but also some classic rock like Pink Floyd, the Stones, etc. This was the best experience in my room ever!!! The sound was so incredibly good that I couldn't stop listening. To me it was more real than ever before. I'm not great in describing the sound in "audiophile" terms but I can tell you that the combination of Oppo, Lyngdorf and the Tekton Encores (via HDMI) created unbelievably realistic music in my room with real sounding instruments and voices. BTW, Red Book CDs sounded awesome too. So, now I am tempted to look for a good HDMI cable even though I can't imagine how it could make it sound better. But..., you just never know ;) |
https://www.opus51.fr/les-tests/item/870-lyngdorf-tdai-3400-le-test One of the most detailed review of 3400. It say good things about 3400 but no Karma in the midrange which may be only possible with SET. It also mention that 3400 sound far superior to what a Devialet 220 Pro can offer, |
@shkong78 Sorry to leave you hanging. My weekend didn't go as planned, so I have not yet had an opportunity to follow through on running the 3400 as a preamp for the LM 508, but I will get to it sometime this week. In the meantime, I am really enjoying the 3400 as is. I was unable to read the review--is there a way to translate it to English? But it sounds pretty much in line with where I am--the ONLY area where the 3400 doesn't quite match the 508 is in the midrange, but I do look forward to an A/B comparison to see just what the gap may be. There will be gaps in the 3400's favor as well. Also, as a previous owner of a Devialet D200, I can say without any doubt that the 3400 is far, far better in my system and to my ears. I thought the Devialet sounded clean and clear, but in the long run, it was just not as musically engaging as I wanted it to be. No such issue with the 3400, which is keeping me nights listening and smiling. |
You can use Google translation for French if you use chrome browser. Chrome will ask you whether you want automatic translation. It applies not only to French but also German, Polish and other languages. I will wait for your output before triggering the gun, I am still wondering whether I will go for 3400 or updating my 8 years old EmmLab Dac2. |
I am curious whether this unit will work with a simple ethernet connection to a Nas hard drive? On my PS audio DAC , I found that the ethernet was superior with the bridge, then with USB. Also, wondering if the manufacturer intends to develop a product without a built-in amplifier For those of us who like our speaker amplifier coupling. |
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I just purchased a 3400 to see what all the hype is about. I should get it next week. This will hopefully be replacing a Metrum acoustics Ambre Roon endpoint to Audio-GD NFB7.77 Dac to Krell EVO 202 preamp to Halo JC1 monblocks. I hope all the hype is true to same all that money. BTW, how does the 3400 claim to have 200w/ch/8 ohm when the power input on the back says 140W? I want to use my PS audio P5 power conditioner with this and want to make sure it is safe. |
I got my 3400 for about 2 months now and couldn't be happier. I use it to stream music from Tidal via Roon through Nucleus+ to the 3400 via USB. I also use it to play all kind of disc media from my OPPO 205 via HDMI connection. I have the best sound ever in my dedicated room. Room Perfect is just great and adds a lot to shape the sound in my room. Makes a big difference. Also, few days ago I was comparing some power cords feeding the 3400. It did make a difference. The one I had on hand that was clearly the best among few others was made by Soundstring. It's the Generation II Platinum Series SE power cord. In my set up it brought up the imaging, clarity, focus, tonality... to another level. Don't know why, but it just works so well with the 3400. BTW, I plug the 3400 directly into a dedicated outlet in the wall. |
@velomane - you are allowed 2 Roon Perfect Setups so setup the secondary with the output to the XLR ACTIVE in the GUI WEB MENU. No need to do any measurements. Alternatively, you could also activate the XLR preamp output on Room Perfect profile 1 and just switch it to bypass mode. Whichever you choose or think is more simple. Turning Roomperfect off via bypass while XLR Preamp mode is enabled or creating a 2ndary RoomPerfect Profile with no measurements and also with the XLR Preamp outputs enabled. In this instance you would switch between Roomperfect profile 1 or 2 and have bypass engaged even though it’s sort of moot since you would not have stored any mic measurements anyway for that headphone profile. Hope this helps you out. As far as output level you are allowed variable or fixed output gain settings and also gain compensation settings. Since you wish to use the headphone amp's volume control set it to fixed on the Lyngdorf. |
Thanks jcarcopo, I really appreciate the help. After doing some reading, it would seem that a fixed output level of -10dB is industry standard, yet the software defaults to -12. Is there any risk of damaging my headphone amp with either of these settings? As an aside, the Lyngdorf software is quite amazing in its versatility. This machine just continues to impress me in all respects. |
@velomane No there’s no risk in hurting anything as -12db is lower in gain than -10db. There are also gain compensations per input, per profile, should you which to compensate, but -2db is pretty negligible so I would just simply increase the volume gain on your headphone amp to compensate if I were you. |
Well, my 3400 arrived today and I have to say I’m pretty impressed with the sound with just a few hours on it, mind you that my Paradigm Persona’s are also brand new, and not yet broken in. Believe it or not, what least impressed me was the room perfect. I ran it and it made the sound very midrange heavy, the highs where pretty much gone and even the bass was not as punchy. After my subs arrive, and everything is broken in, I will run room perfect again to see what it can do. |
I would say you need to look at the RP instructions again and follow them very carefully. Set the speakers up to sound the very best they can in your space without RP. Then you run RP. It may take a little time to become more expert in using RP. Losing all the highs is never something that should happen with a properly run RP set up. Something was not set up properly. Also make sure you are using the Focus position setting along with Neutral. You may have engaged one of the sound filters beyond neutral by accident. |
@aniwolfe Thanks for the link. I had already watched the video and I believe I did the room perfect correctly. I will give it a try in a month or so when the subs are in place and everything is broken in. I'm in no hurry as I'm really liking the sound without room perfect! The Paradigm Persona's are amazing speakers, |
@grannyring Thanks for your information. I had everything set like you mentioned and I'm pretty sure i did everything correctly, but you never know. I will give it another try after my subs are in and everything is broken in. One thing that I am curious about is where should I place "myself" during the calibration? |
Wow, I had not realized that there were quite a few Line Magnetic owners that have also experimented with the 3400. I just jumped on the 3400 that was on sale as well and am really looking forward to having this be the primary amp for my system. After having tried the Luxman 509X and the 590AXII in my system, my bar is fairly high in terms of solid state amps. Not sure this can do much better but I like the flexibility that this unit has on paper. Room calibration, HDMI inputs and outputs, headphone, small footprint and runs cool. It should prove to be a good alternative for me as I will be keeping my 805ia to do tube duty whenever I feel like it. I am not also considering a server/streamer ... sounds like Innuos and Lumin/Melco might be options. Anyone with experience with those streamers? |
First you need to use cabling noted for natural unforced sound. Cabling that has great midrange bloom and meat on the bones weight. Cabling that has natural tone and serves up details with smooth and warm personality. No silver. No silver over copper. Cables made from Duelund tinned and stranded copper wire in cotton is ideal. Absolutely ideal. Yes, I make such cables. Other cables also fit this bill such as Cerious Tech. I good power cord and balanced power conditioner. Stay away from silver power cords and too much shielding. I am a big fan of balanced isolation transformers in front of the Lyngdorf. These help deliver a full bodied and natural sound quality. Keep the unit on as it sounds best after being on some 12 hours. Fully on....not in standby. Run room correction to at least 98 percent room reading. I did some internal mods to mine that really brought out the intimacy and realism. I won’t go into that here as it is not something many would do with warranty issues etc,... |
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Room correction begins with the flawed premise that a single microphone can hear what our ear/brain hears in our room. It's not even close. They can do a great job cleaning up unruly bass. But past 200 hz you're doing more harm than good "correcting" the frequency response that your speaker designer worked so hard for. |
