Lumin X1 or dCS Bartok

I have several DACs including the X1, which I have had for several years.   It has been a very solid and good sounding piece for me.   I have not heard the Bartok.  I have thought about selling it, but have not acted on that,   Lumin has been excellent on software updates and responding to customer questions an issue online.   Leedh Processing was a no charge additional update, and is very good.  I prefer to use a preamp, Makua, which, I have preferred but not by a great margin.  I have added a new piece in my system that has a USB input and my Antipodes K50 G4 has a single USB output.   I had read an independent review and later from Lumin that USB from the Lumin could be used as a digital out where the X1 would act solely as a player and USB could be connected to another USB DAC.  I love options and tried this into the Makua USB option in the DAC (Tambaqui).   The sound is different but very, very good.   Doing this requires the user to configure output from the X1 from Analog to USB (SPDIF also an option) via the Lumin downloadable app.  Lots to like about the X1. 

 

Thought I’d provide a 2024 refresh from an X1 owner since early 2021.  I recently auditioned the Rossini Apex in my system for 4 days as a potential upgrade to the X1.  The Bartok is the more obvious competitor, but it lost (in pre-Apex guise) back in 2021, and the purpose of this audition was to find an upgrade.  

Bottom line: the Rossini was initially quite notably superior in the areas of decay, natural timbre on drums, mid-bass presence and articulation, detail of overtones and harmonics.  But then I found that I was 4 versions behind on the X1 firmware, and that the X1 also has a DSD 128 upsampling option for 44.1 material like the Rossini was configured to use.  After applying the firmware upgrade and upsampling configuration option, the X1 was fully equal, and nearly indistinguishable from the Rossini Apex within the limits of my system and hearing resolution.    

I’ll be holding off on upgrading until I have space and budget for a Vivaldi stack (which is quite definitively better and I haven’t even heard the Apex version yet).  Bottom line, the X1 is still a phenomenal value and (at least within my limited system) matches the performance of mid-range SOTA from one of the best brands in digital.  

-Paul

System: Burrmester 948, Lumin X1, McIntosh MT-10 + Clearaudio Stradivari, McIntosh C500T with NOS Telefunkens, 2x McIntosh MC500, Sonus Faber Il Cremonese Ex3me, SF Gravis VI

 

@kingdeezie 

 

That is quite inconvenient for me. Yes, I want max fidelity. But, my wife will some time use her tv to listen to music and there is no connection for that.  

The lumin x1 that is owned by me, was purchased because of its internal dac and streamer under one roof.  I own separate dacs and found x1 to be better and may be due to internal wiring that works better than dealing with all the separate interconnects and dacs to clutter up sound path.

Nobody enjoys dealing with inserting the variety of dacs offered. Separates have their place in a high end system but the dac I found makes sense to integrate within the streamer box and lumin does it exceptionally well. It even makes poorly recorded Great classical Rock music from the 70s sound really good and that's a huge deal.

My system also has a nucleus to host Roon and I wonder if I can do better here. Any ideas? I like the nucleus but it's a computer offering lots of noise

That's $27000++dac. That's awesome.

@djek -- I can tell you the X-1 that I used to own was extremely close to my Lampizator Pacific in SQ.  

I am ordering X1 now. I also have dcs Bartok using Mutec clocks(2MC-3+ Smart Clock USB and REF10). They are so different. I would say that you could trick out Bartok lots more. Lumin X1 is good as it is. Sound organic and have good dynamic. While Bartok is more fun and sounds little more on the darker side, which fit my stereo : AudioNet Max mono amp and pre G2 with Avior II Rockport Technology speaker. I am ordering X1 to use with jeff rowland continuum s2 int amp and Boenicke b10 speaker.

Just got my X1 and it’s breaking in. Which I believe is going to take a while! First impressions are very favorable. Including ease of set up. Mine is getting everything from my router via regular ethernet cable. My Mac Mini M1 is home to both Lumin player and Roon as well as my ripped music. I plan on upgrading to optical very soon. To my old and tired ears it sound absolutely wonderful. Can’t wait for the major break into be completed. Down the road I plan on connect the X1  streaming section to my Luxman D-10X DAC for some fun comparisons.

Right now it’s playing Radio Paradise World and it sounds so good.

I have heard the Lumin T1 (not the X1), it was very good, musical and engaging. Heard the Dcs Bartok and the Vivaldi Stack multiple times in different systems, was never impressed nor engaged with them. If you can, look into MSB, which I'd take over both.

Update on the Lumin gear ... the multiroom did not sync which is very disappointing.  If you read the fine print on their website it does disclose this but I can't imagine having multiroom that does not sync.

I traded in the lumin gear and am now looking at high end multiroom gear that will sync.

Anyone looking for multiroom stay away from lumin.

fiza32 posts08-26-2020 7:44pmI was told that the following $800 DAC beats Bartok in resolution and openness :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjus0erFU_4

LOL!!!

I was told that the following $800 DAC beats Bartok in resolution and openness :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjus0erFU_4

Late to this discussion but recently I trade my DCS Bartok in on a Lumin X1 and I am very happy with the switch.  Not having them side by side I did not A B them.  But I can tell you that the Lumin and Bartok both sound great.  They both run or ran through a Mcintosh C22 and MC462.

It terms of the difference I think the Lumin just sounds more real.  I am a guitar player and I notice that with the Lumin it sounds like an acoustic guitar playing in the room.  It sound like high end analog without the fuss or records.

One more point I was very happy with the DCS and never felt like I needed more but I was using Sonos through the DCS for multi-zone music and I could not use Tidal and was limited to spotify. To build a multi-zone system with DCS would have been very cost prohibitive.

That led me to the Lumin X1 paired with the two M1s for my other zones.  The Lumin M1 is a self contained amp dac streamer.  I now have the perfect HiRes 3 zone set up.

I also run a Lumin T2 with a Mcintosh MA6500 (which has 2 zone built in) in a second home.

I love the dependability and resale value of Mcintosh.  Paired with Lumin which provides ease of use, world class sound and rock solid dependability you have a great combination that will last for years.

One last comment I like the thought of having a tube component (C22) in the chain.  It would be interesting to try a solid state pre in place of the C22.

Happy for now.  LOL 

bill_k,

Thanks, I think I understand most of what you stated. I'm nearing 68 and  I missed most of the computer generation.
I like to keep it simple, if I can.

ozzy

Hey Ozzy! A hard drive can be partitioned to appear as multiple drives instead of a single drive (i.e. a 5TB drive can be single partitioned with its full storage as D:, or be partitioned to appear as multiple smaller drives such as D:, E:, and F:) Sounds like yours is in the standard single partition, folders are not an issue.

However while I believe the Lumin will recognize a hard drive like yours connected via USB, to have full indexing and metadata display they recommend that you run MinimServer which is free server software. So I think you’d be best off connecting the drive to a PC on your network and run MS on the PC to support that drive, or else use a NAS drive instead of a USB drive and run MS on the NAS drive.

I don’t own a Lumin myself but this is from what I’ve read about them. I’d suggest discussing your setup with a Lumin dealer to ensure how it will work with your current drive, what limitations is might have, and how to set it up with MS if needed as I know Lumin recommends.

bill_k,
Sorry, I am not too computer savvy. What does a single partition Hard Drive mean? It is a Western Digital hard drive that only has my music file on it. However they are in folders by artist.

ozzy

As a point of clarification on the Lumin X1's USB connection, it can be used as an output with Native DSD512 support, PCM 44.1–768kHz, 16–32-bit, Stereo. As an input it supports connection of USB storage, flash drive, USB hard disk (Single-partition FAT32, exFAT and NTFS only).

ozzy,

Yes, the X1 has a single USB that can be used either for input or output.

Doesn't the X1 have a usb input?

ozzy

Thanks guys. I will look into the mentioned. 

jriggy, 

If you have not seen, you might want to check out https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57261-sonore-compact-disc-digital-audio-streaming/

It's an interesting idea.  Used microRendu units are pretty reasonable and 2.8 card from Sonore to update to use the idea not very expensive.  It appears to me you could access the cd stream from Roon.

A few that come to mind are Auralic Vega G2 (cheaper), MSB Discrete with network renderer or a tad higher priced would be Bricasti M12 (M3 is cheaper), Brinkmann Nyquist MKII, Bel Canto Black EX DAC, Vitus RD-101, amongst many other.

There are a bunch of higher end DAC/Streamers in the $10K+ category, the harder category is less than $10K.

I can’t help but think that not including a digital-in of any kind is a major oversight on Lumin part. It would be absolutely perfect for my needs if it had even just one. I still want to run cd transport alongside streaming... 

isn’t there another streamer/DAC around this price that could be considered? 

Lumin focuses mainly on streaming - they make steamers with DACs, not DACs with streaming capability like others.  The streaming side is rock solid, rarely has issues.  Nice part is not only are their DACs fantastic, you can use the digital out capabilities later if you want to upgrade the DAC side.

You can connect USB flash or hard drive to the lumin or stream from a NAS.

wow. how can a dac have no digital input?  perhaps a dumb question but how do you play your files(burned cds etc)?

The X1 doesn't have any digital inputs. So, if you have any other source that needs to be converted, you are SOL. 

For that reason alone, as great as the Lumin may sound, it is missing critical features that the DCS has. 

@4425 - The Lumin X1 is a streamer and DAC which retails in the US for $13,990.

just to be sure. the X1 is a streamer and dac like the Bartok? what’s the X1 price? 

I have owned both the Bartok and now the X1. The X1 has a totally new design and was developed as a closed loop system.  Lumin can update firmware, (FPGA) and software remotely. The Lumin is based on broadcast grade components and engineering. I have not heard anything better than the X1 and that includes products costing almost twice as much. Need to read the Hi Fi Plus review from the UK and the Audiophile Style review from Chris (Formerly the computer audiophile). The X1 is the most analog sounding digital streamer, renderer, DAC that I have ever heard. Pixel Magic Systems, their parent company is a real innovator. The dual mono Lundahl transformer couplings and new external dual mono AC to DC power supply, in my mind is the icing on the cake. The X1 is the end of the road for my search in in end audio streaming.

I can definitely say Lumin makes some fantastic streamers.  I have the T2 and it holds it’s own against much higher priced DACs.  I imagine the X1 would take this to another level.

key word there is "most likely" or better yet, "potentially". Either way you cant quantify the sonic difference as a percentage, although I know just about everyone out there does. Comparing Bartok to X1... for me the X1 sounds considerably better.

Dznutz, your argument can go both ways.  Sure if you have the top of the line you know you are getting the company’s best.  But if you get a lower model of a much higher line you will most likely be getting trickle down technology from 2-4x price gear but just be missing that extra 5-10%.

perhaps yes, but I have owned the X1 and I have heard the Bartok along with the Rossini.  To my ears, not only do they simply sound different but the Lumin sounds more refined.  At around $15K I would hope to be buying the best a company can do, not their cheapest implementation.

That’s some flawed logic right there, dznutz. How does that make the X1 the winner?

Biggest difference is that the X1 is the best that Lumin can do... meanwhile the Bartok is DCS’s entry level product.  The Lumin wins.

I upsampled pcm 44k to dsd 128. I hardly heard any difference. Maybe with top level headphones? Same applies to Bartok, settings do not have an impact for me

Thanks, I will have a look at them. I tried the Isoacoustic footers but prefer it without. 

Ross a set of Critical Mass Centerstage footers will also make a huge difference. 

I prefer my X1 playing files in their native format and resolution. I'm not sure how it would be possible to sound more liquid than it does already!

Schelle, have you used the  upsampling/cross conversion tab in the Lumin? 

Most of our clients prefer running their X1 with the PCM 44k tab set to DSD 128 which usually makes the Lumin' sound more liquid.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Lumin dealers

Currently, I compare Bartok and X1 in a A/B comparison. I do not hear much differences (if any and only when I play selected songs). Maybe the Bartok has slightly more dynamics/resolution but I am still not finished with my comparison

I can’t imagine what corners were cut on the Bartok. Weighs a ton and it’s universally raved about. If one feels that the Bartok has corners cut the Rossini is there for 10k more. I think the Rossini has a more sophisticated power supply and a more luxurious box. It too is universally praised. Only the consumer can decide if the 10k is worth it. Better is always in conflict with good. 

Fiza, your explanation of your findings is not based on fact.

Lumin uses Lundhal output transformers which acts as a buffer between the output stage and the incomming signal from the Luimin into the  preamplfier or power amplifier.

A Macintosh amplifier uses an autoformer as a load matching device which contains thousands of feet of wire, vs a the Lundhal which uses a tiny amount of wire in comparison to an output or load matching transformer.  

The Macintosh amplfiers use this technique to enable the amplifier to see a common load vs a direct coupled solid state amplfication stage which can provide enough current to power an arc welder. 

Also your assumptions on cost of the Lumin are just wrong, the case of both the power supply and main chassis are cut from solid billet aluminum this drives up costs dramatically and provides a very inert chassis, factor in the cost of the dac chips, two circuit boards the Lundhal output transformers, three high end toridial main power transformers you can see this is not an inexpensive product, that also doesn't take into consideration the rest of the costs in manufacturing, the importers profit, shipping and research and development.

The fact that the Lumin X1 compares to much more expensive front ends is testament to its value proposition. 

We have a store full of dacs, in order to beat the X1 you have to spend $30k- 50k, The X1 sounds dramatically better than the less expensive digital products.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Lumin dealers

@fiza you have concluded that based on actually hearing these units?  
Or on the basis of forum research/

Re transformers, McIntosh uses transformers. They have their followers, but many people do not consider them high-end (coloration, pace, etc). At the same time, I think dCS cut corners with Bartok. Imagine you have a Ferrari and now you want to cut corners on it. I still remember some silly Mercedes Benz whose corners were so much cut that it no longer looked like Mercedes.I investigated 100s of forums and formed an opinion that both of these products have their MSRPs ballooned big time to begin with (the truth of the matter, though, is that the MSRPs of lower tiers, Mytek etc. are ballooned too).In conclusion, I think neither of these products can justify their hefty MSRP.

I ran my Roon core on a laptop for a year with no problems.  

If you want to avoid having an additional networked computer to run Roon Core, there are NAS setups which some find sufficient to run it while also providing your library file storage.

Yes indeed. I have an Innuos, but was hoping to sell and help fund this purchase.  I love Roon.  I understand this unit sounds fantastic and I like the simplicity and direct ethernet hook up. Bummer on the need for a separate wired/dedicated computer for Roon core.