Looking for the Honda S2000 of turntables

Sorry I came in late. The Technics SL-1200/1210 and/or the Rega P3 are good choices, but if it were my money I would look for a good condition used Micro Seiki DD-40.

Good deck, on par w/ the Technics (IMHO). Much better arm than either the Technics or the Rega (again, IMHO). Finally, easy to setup and pretty much stays that way. Plus the fact that it is a good looking TT doesn't hurt.

The best part is that they are cheap, typically $300-$400 plus cartridge of your choice.

I had an S2000 for about 50,000 miles / driven daily in all SoCal weather.
I don't get it. It was picky about tires, and didn't like wet weather, even with 'all season' hi-perf tires. Had to keep an eye on the oil, too. (always synthetic). If driven moderately, it was no faster than a Civic Si. Use the full tach range, and there was no catching it. The car was very hi strung and was probably not as buttoned down as it could have been.....Honda modified the rear suspenders at least 3x during the production run.

Why would I want such a hi-strung TT? What am I missing?

Thanks again for all the advice.

I already have simple record-cleaning gear, so that does not need to be factored into my budget. Now, some back story:

Here's what led me to this point. Long ago, I bought a MMF 2.1 to hook up to a mass-market system just to hear records. Then I shelved the TT when I got more into CDs. Much later, I replaced my amp and speakers and am now looking to upgrade the TT to something commensurate with the rest of my system (Vincent SV-236; Synchrony Two towers).

I haven't heard a lot of TTs, but I have heard a Nottingham which opened my eyes to what a TT could sound like. It felt more like being enveloped by music and less like being aware of listening to a reproduction of it. I know, it's a $3k machine and I'm not expecting to get that kind of sound on my budget. The point is, I know I can do better than what I have and now I have the amp/speakers to accommodate a better TT.

When I listened to the P3, it was not as big an improvement as I expected, especially after such positive press. It sounded cleaner than the 2.1 (by cleaner I mean...less mechanical? I'm not sure how to describe it). But, as I mentioned, it sounded grainy, but I'm guessing that's because of the cartridge (Do 10X5s normally sound grainy?). The lesson here is that it wasn't enough of an improvement over what I have to justify the cost. I'm not much of a measurements guy and try not to be too analytical about these things. I figured that I would walk into the listening room and immediately hear the difference in quality. I didn't. So I figured the next step would be a higher level Music Hall or Pro-ject or an entry-level Clearaudio, which are within my budget. I haven't had a chance to listen to any of these, and don't know if I will.

To those who are familiar with a 2.1 (or decks of similar level: Rega P1, Pro-ject Debut), here is my question: Which model TTs (aside from Technics, PLEASE) would you consider enough of a step up from entry-level to justify the cost?

Regarding Technics, I honestly had no idea there was a war raging between Technics/Anti-Technics camps. My research on TTs has been limited to hi-fi magazines, online analog articles and whatever gear I can audition. I knew 1200s were still being made, but didn't give them much consideration due to their being marketed toward DJs, never being mentioned in any of the main mags (Stereophile, TAS, etc.) and the bad things dealers and writers have to say about direct-drive. To a man I was told belt drive is the way to go. I find the reaction by the poster who was shocked that I had heard such things about DD pretty disingenuous. Do we not read the same magazines? Have you ever seen Technics listed as a recommended component, best buy, etc.? I haven't.

Now, I'm not saying I have dismissed a 1200 or a DD table. But I don't want to stoke the flame war going on in this thread. I have read the pro-Technics posts. You've made good points. It is under consideration. Now I'd like to hear about the many other models available.

To Macrojack, you did not misread me as your synopsis of my wants is exactly on the mark, much better than I could have worded it. Thank you for the advice. As I said, Technics is under consideration.

To Bondmanp, thank you for the link to the Music Direct Marantz bundle. This looks to be right up my alley and at exactly my price. I read that this model is a Clearaudio Emotion rebranded for Marantz. I've read good things about Clearaudio. Any comments?

I wouldn't indulge you all with more questions had this thread not proved to be so popular and you hadn't all been so very helpful. Thank you again.

I have no personal experience with it, but if I were in your position, I'd try to check out a Michell Tecnodec (googling will turn up lots of results). I've seen one in person, and it has a very high cool factor, based only on appearances. But it also got a very good review from Michael Fremer in Stereophile. He said that if your budget is $4,000, you'd do very well to get the $1,700 Tecnodec plus a $2,000 cartridge because the Tecnodec was good enough to show off an expensive cart to good effect. It's also very simple and straightforward to set up. It usually comes with a Michell-modified Rega arm that has easy VTA adjustment.

One other I'd check out is the Opera Consonance LP6.1 at an even lower $1,125, I believe (again google will take you there). Available from Grant Fidelity, with, I believe, return privileges.

Again, this is not a firsthand recommendation, just a couple of tables I'd try to learn more about if I were in your position.

(By the way, I was always skeptical of the Technics turntable—until I bought one with mods from KAB. It's easily on a par with my Oracle Paris, and I think it's an outstanding choice in that price range. So I guess I'm one of Lizzie's fanboys, which apparently includes anyone who happens to like the deck.)

-Bob

Belt drive is simple. It requires no great engineering department. Most of the stuff you are considering evolved from DIY. That's not a bad thing but it is eclipsed by the engineering departments and research budgets of a major corporation like Technics. During the late 1970s and early 1980s when I was selling retail audio, every household in America was shopping for a stereo and most included the purchase of a turntable. It was a booming industry and the Japanese companies were leading the way. In turntables, there were statement products from every manufacturer and there were entry level, price conscious compromised offerings. Cheap direct drive wasn't very good and failed to compete successfully with entry level belt drive. The ultimate efforts of these companies were invariably direct drive. This is still true. However, the best turntables of that period are as good as the best made today. The R&D that went into these statement products was subsidized by the sale of hundreds of thousands of mass market units. As I'm sure you know, that subsidy no longer exists. Most big manufacturers all but abandoned turntable production during the 1980s and most have not returned to it. Technics is an exception as they continued to market their units to a professional element without interruption despite having cut back to just one model.
Perhaps the reason you don't see much talk of Technics among reviewers and their echo system is that a company like that has no need and little reason to bother with that political charade. They do plenty well on their own having a very well-established name and a vast advertising budget.
I'm recommending the Technics 12xx series because it is what you asked for with your car analogy. My own turntable, a Technics SL-150 MK II with Rega RB 300 arm is a default option. I just sold my Technics SL-1000 MkII to a prominent high end amplifier manufacturer because I felt that there was little justification for holding on to such a machine when we play LPs so seldom at my house. Nonetheless, I am not ready to abandon the option altogether so I mated an arm and table I already owned and will press them into service one day soon.
So buy whatever you see fit to purchase. Obviously I have no stake in this matter. What brought me to offer my advice was the wrong belief on your part that belt-drive is inherently superior to direct drive. That simply isn't the case. If I were in your position, I would be looking for a lightly used masterpiece from the golden age of analog. Since you specified a desire to buy "new", I pointed you toward the Technics. It isn't the last word but it is the best value barring an informed selection from the past. I have bought many excellent tables with dedicated tonearm for less than $1000 over the years and you can do that too. If you wish for more advice from me or have specific questions, please feel free to contact me personally.

Shrevie, save up for something in the $3k to $4k range. My experience is that I wasted more money in mid-range upgrades then I actually spent in getting better quality components. $2k is not enough money to get a significant upgrade over what you have. You can get something nice for that money, but not something really good. In essence it's money not that well spent. But for $3,500+ you can get something special. Roughly budget equal amounts for a turntable/tonearm and phone stage. Don't overspend on a cartridge.

This may not be what you want to hear, but either keep what you got now, or save up for later. It's far and away the best bang for the buck.

Over a year ago I took a Technics SP-25 and matching base in on trade. It sat in my store room for months until a bit of ambition struck and I decided to mount a Hadcock tonearm on it just for grins and giggles.

I know the Hadcock well but had no idea on what to expect from the SP-25. I am simply amazed at the performance of the combination. The only modification is a TTWeights copper mat replacing the cheesy Technics stock rubber mat.

My total investment is a bit over $1000. Having heard most of the current models I'm confident there is no VPI, Music Hall, or Rega table/arm combo up to $3K that will come close to this set up IMO.

Go for a Technics or similiar 70's table.

Dealer disclaimer for Hadcock.

Right. Being a musician has no relevance to what turntable one owns, IMO.

From what I know about most musicians, particularly professional musicians, they don't usually have expensive stereo systems. They often own modest systems, and they listen for different musical attributes than do audiophiles.

Wrong again, but at least consistent.
When you have...
- Been a musician over 50 years
- Spent 1000's of hours in recording studios
- Performed professionally live and on many albums
- Sound engineered / mixed albums
- Produced albums
- Own the master tapes and can compare quality to the albums

After this, quite possibly you might just get "lucky" and understand what you are hearing. You can even pick out a turntable for your "modest little non-audiophile stereo" that sounds good and more like the live performance.

BTW, I did get rid of the 2 soup cans with a string tied between that was my standard "musician" system for years. My current systems plugs-in and everything.

Your experience and interest in equipment and recording extends beyond that of the typical musician. It's safe to say that if this were not true, you wouldn't be participating in Audiogon forums.

I'm not sure how to deduce what is "typical" and only a psychosis could lead one to a correlation between being "typical" and being an "AudiogoN participant".

You're outta luck, Shrevie. Tvad sees no reason to continue this discussion.

Shrevie: "I find the reaction by the poster who was shocked that I had heard such things about DD pretty disingenuous. Do we not read the same magazines? Have you ever seen Technics listed as a recommended component, best buy, etc.? I haven't."

We do read the same magazines. But your original quote dismissed the entire genre of direct-drive, not the Technics. Here's what you wrote:

"I have read nothing but bad things about direct drive tables: rumble, resonance from the motor under the platter."

The Rockport Sirius was a direct drive was in the Stereophile class A+ recommended component for years. The Monaco Grand Prix was also in recommended component and in fact component of the year in HiFi+, sister magazine of TAS. The Goldmund Studio was one of the most coveted turntable in the 80's. The reason there aren't many direct-drive available is because they are too damn expensive to make!

As for the Technics not having recommendation from those magazines is because there was never a formal review. No review, naturally no recommendation. It's just that simple. If you look online there are formal reviews in many respectable sites. Here's at least one positive review:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_2_e.html

It's really silly that I even need to use magazines to justify my point as I usually don't even care for the reviews in those magazines. Trust your own ears.

If an audiophile goes into a dealer hears a bad belt-drive turntable in audition, he or she probably would ask for a different belt-drive turntable (and probably that's all they have) and most likely not cross their mind about change drive system, right? If they hear a bad direct-drive or, let's say, a bad Technics, they would immediately point the finger at direct drive as a bad drive system without further investigation. The bad reps direct-drive turntables got from the 70's and 80's from the press has been fully recovered. It's a shame.

I am not a Technics fanboy at all. I am fan of turntables, period.

_____

O.K. Sorry. I thought you were recommending that we pull the plug on this stimulating pissing contest about who sold the most turntables to which demographic at what point in history.

I've read this entire string and it has opened my eyes, as well. I expect to be in the analog market, albeit at a slightly higher price point, in the not-too distant future, and the dialogue has been valuable.

I'm sure that the turntable experts may quibble (or worse) with this suggestion, but there is a used VPI Scout on the 'Gon for $1150 right now. Couple that with a Grado wood cartridge and Grado PH-1 phono stage, and you're right at two bills. (There is also a nice HP-19 Mk 3 package for about the same money.) I think these combos might approach what the OP is looking for -- a punch well above their weight class.

Happy listening.

I sure wouldn't quibble with those suggestions. The OP specified a new purchase which is why I steered him toward Technics. Personally, I always prefer to let someone else absorb the initial depreciation punch.

Shrevie - Unfortunately I have no experience with the Marantz 'table or the Clearaudios it is derived from. Based on your original post, and positive reviews I've read, I thought it would be a convenient option. Note that, except for the phono cartridge, Music Direct has a good return option if you're unhappy. Myself, well, I am not a turntable flipper. If you look in my System link, you'll see I run a fully stock Thorens TD-166MkII, which I bought new in 1984 (a big purchase for a guy right out of college - roughly a month's rent). I thought then that turntables were going the way of the Dodo. HA! But, the Thorens still sounds really good to me, and exhibits no nastyness (hum, speed issues, rumble, etc.), so I am not ready to fix what ain't broke. I know there is better out there, but with limited funds for hifi, I am staying put for a while.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1279157656

Above is a 1 yr old P7 w/o cart.

Does that meet the requirements? When the OP auditioned a P3, that didn't make the cut. Is the P7 a leap over the P3?

Understood.....Just curious as to where a properly setup P7 falls in the food chain of sub 2k TTs.

What are the qualities of a Honda S2000? It's a balanced sports car leveraging mainstream technologies, well-machined and built for relative simplicity and reliability. No aspect of its operation is intimidating so it can be driven by anyone but it has sufficient engineering and intrinsic performance to warrant elevated driving skills. It's light yet strong, with very high torsional rigidity for an open car and the suspension sophistication to take advantage of the best tire technologies. It's also a holistic design, very well optimized in its balance of dynamic behaviors from the factory, making it pretty much a turnkey sporting car that also happens to be affordable for its performance, and economical to operate.

Unfortunately, not everyone fits in it, but that's another matter.

There are three turntable options on today's new-purchase market that qualify, with or without the $2000 limit for table, arm, cart and phono stage: Technics, Rega (and all its imitators using Rega or Rega-inspired tonearms) and Clearaudio.

I don't own any of them, nor have I ever.

First, Technics. Most people have never heard an SL12XX in a quality hi-fi, so it is often maligned for its resemblance to the many abominable mass-produced direct drive turntables that saturated the market at the time of its birth. Dismissing it for reasons of association is a mistake. I'll say this about direct drive: My early high-end audio indoctrination over 35 years ago included extreme bias in favor of belt-drive turntables built to a high standard. I have Linn, VPI, Pink Triangle, Mission, SOTA, Transcriptors, B&O in my past, along with plenty of experience with the boutique jewelry turntables of the past 15 years. One turntable has lived in parallel with all of those in my systems for 30 years -- the Luxman PD-444 and 441. The PD4XX are direct drive, executed to a very high standard in simple form. It's also a holistic design. No belt-drive turntable has elbowed it aside in my systems, on music merits, in three decades.

The SL-12XX is well executed to a price, but that price is far lower than any other company could market that specific turntable for today. It is a holistic design, built for speed stability, low noise, good resonance control, good isolation of the groove/sylus interface and consistency along with long-term reliability. It's designed to perform well and sound good in real-world systems, at a price anyone interested can afford. The Technics' tonearm is fine; not stellar but fine. It affords a range of tuning via changes in headshells. As a medium mass tonearm it matches up to a broad latitude of available cartridges. Well set-up with proper cartridge, an owner can get enviable sound that won't change. It will stay in adjustment, keep on turning, pretty much behave the same way in two decades as the day you first get it working. As KAB demonstrates, the basic design is responsive to hot-rodding. Well, have at it. But if you just put a set of Aurios Media Bearings under it, that improvement alone will overwhelm any futzing you do with rewiring the tonearm, fluid damping, tonearm replacement, and all the other tweaky nonsense that defeats its simplicity in the first place. The SL-12XX sounds vigorous and alive. Music played from it has energy and drive.

Next, Rega. Let's face it. In a different era of well-capitalized, R&D driven companies operating in a robust hifi market, the Rega P1, P2, P3, P5 and all its imitators, would be considered pathetic hacks. P7 and P9 you start getting into something. Rega turntables are a paradox. Outside of the P9, nothing about them is very good, but they are nevertheless holistic designs that in toto sound better than they should. So in that sense any Rega that fits your budget is S2000-like. Plus if you add their phono cartridges and the way they work with Rega's proprietary 3-point mount, there's almost no futzing for dialing them in.

As material objects, Rega turntables are disappointments for the money. They are almost embarrassing to own, short of the P9. But properly set up, they produce music. Oh, they're indifferent to delivering spot-on speed but a Rega turntable is toneful and smooth. The hifi term "PRaT" seems to have been invented by Rega loyalists to describe something Rega turntables actually don't have, as a distraction to confuse understanding of music reproduction, but no matter. There's a lightness to music spooling out a Rega turntables that is an underlying consistency many people prefer and enjoy. It comes at the cost of tone density, and gravity, however. Rega tonearms have an averageness about them that is less overcast as you go up the line, until the excellent RB1000 reveals the true potential of the design. But again, they offer wide latitude for cartridge compatibility, are easy to set-up and the sonic compromises at the lower prices are predictable, consistent and manageable.

The many aftermarket upgrades to Rega turntables (except the P9) reflect the sorry compromises we have to accept in finished products at moderate prices in turntables circa 2010. Change the bearing, the sub-platter, the plinth, the platter, the tonearm wiring, the motor, the feet....aye, aye, aye. None of the elements are particularly good, but they are balanced in their mediocrity to deliver a synergistic result. I'll say the Rega turntables, outside of the P9, are more Miata than S2000, but the Miata is a balanced lesser-performance, fun car people tend to live with and be satisfied by as-delivered, too.

Next, Clearaudio Concept. I'll argue this is the most S2000-like turntable in the OP's price range. Add an Aurum Classic cartridge and a Nano phono stage and you're at two bills, done. It's a holistic design, as well thought out systemically as the Technics, but belt-drive and with a Schroeder-emulating tonearm. Pick your cart and everything comes set-up from the factory. Take it out of the box, follow a few simple instructions, plug in and drive. I haven't heard a Concept but some people who have think it's better than a VPI Classic. What I can say is that the Concept is an S2000 contender in turntables, on holistic concept and execution and if it sounds competitive, then it's likely your answer.

But I have to say this about the OP's bias against used turntables: What's more S2000-like than my two Luxman PD444s that have required no service in over 30 years, along with the stable and excellent tonearms I've put on them? Both have two tonearms. But let's go to basics. The last PD444 I saw sell was mint and sold for $800. A Rega RB301 or something like a vintage Victor US7045 could go on it for $400. There's a used Jasmine LP2.0SE on Audiogon right now for $600. And almost every week there's a low-hours Denon DL103 here for $200. $2000 spent that way steamrolls any "S2000 equivalent" you can buy new.

Phil

213cobra- A very well written, thoughtful and informative response. Good stuff! Thanks.

Have you considered an entry level clearaudio, like the Clearaudio Concept?