Rob,
You make numerous good points. The "neutral/accuracy" camp would find our preferences "too colored". The tonal warmth, fullness and harmonic density is to some artifact and not true to the source. I respect their different take on sound, I just reject that model for myself. I am after natural/organic rather than neutral/accurate. Frequent lifelong exposure to live instruments have taught me differently. At this point I no longer argue or try to persuade(not worth the time or effort).Both groups can peacefully coexist and go their own way. I accept the fact that people vary in what they hear and how they listen and leave it at that. Apparently most of us in the tube/SET amplifier faction hear/react in a similar manner. Timbral listener? fits me.
Charles, |
Mikirob I agree with you completely. I have felt for years that the quest for (neutrality) has gone of track and left me scratching my head. I believe that if the emotion of the music is not conveyed then in fact it is inaccurate. |
Charles,
Basically agree on all of your comments. I believe the opposite of the "neutral/accuracy" camp (so-called), if music is absent tonal warmth, fullness and harmonic density it is not accurate, but a false presentation that is not true to the source. Real music includes all the elements listed by you and in Jeff Day and Yazaki-san's well thought out "Listening Bias" articles. These specific elements of music are not artifact, but "Real Sound." Yes, "both groups can peacefully co-exist and go their own way." Like you, I am after natural/organic "real sound" as opposed to the misnomer of "neutral/accuracy." One caveats though, my fervent hope is that more folk discover Timbral Listening, that more equipment choices become available that will exploit this style/type of listening. Brownsfan nailed my sentiments above with respect to the compare/contrast of tubes/equipment of 60-70 years ago compared to today. In my youth many a family had decent sound reproduction in their homes. That can not be said for today's family. Where have they gone? What caused them to abandon in their home good playback of music? Most here won't like my opinion. I don't wish to stir that troublesome pot. So, for me l'll move on to "Back to the Future" as my path to musical bliss with vintage sound combined with the best of the new in tube/SET, or perhaps with a modern breakthrough amp product such as the geniusYazaki-san designed solid state 60 watt SPEC integrated amp that sounds just like the best of SET DHT 300B, according to Jeff Day in his thorough review in Positive Feedback or in his Blog. The WE16ga/Belden 8402, some wonderful NOS tubes, the splendid potential of the Arizona Capacitor changes, Day and Yazaki-san have caused me to ruminate, contemplate this journey in audio...whatever your taste happy listening, I hope you enjoy the music. Best, Rob |
Rob,
I imagine that if anyone could ever build a SS amplifier that rivals a high quality DHT SET Yazaki would be very high on that list. Maybe I'll get to hear his amplifier one day. I remain skeptical only because I've heard this said adnauseum about this or that SS amp (best of both worlds type of remarks). These are two different topologies that won't/don't sound the same (so take your pick), many people are happy with either. SS is definitely the more prevalent and popular choice. I certainly respect Jeff Day's opinion but I retain reservations about "the same sound characteristics" of very dissimilar amp topologies. I guess I'm from Missouri on this one.
Charles, |
Charles,
I trust Day's ears, Yazaki-san voicing of amp; but like you I remain a Missourian on this one until I hear it. Grannyring was from Missouri on the WE16g/Belden combo until he actually listened to them. Now, most everything he owns is WE16g. A couple of things I can surmise to be likely, is that the SPEC Real Sound amp is a wonderful SS design with many attributes that I would find pleasing; but as stated to you in a different thread it is more probable that I choose one of Yazaki-san 300B or one similar to his D30 tube design. Best, Rob |
Oldcar63,
As a former professional musician I had some fun in my head, had to chuckle, imagining the audience at a venue I played in making comments such as: "Gee, Rob is imaging great tonight, he's almost real and solid on the stage". Sidekick replies, "Yeah, he so transparent I can read his thoughts; I heard his pick drop when he went ten (10) feet back toward the amp to get him some feedback distortion". Another friend speaks up shouting above the kazzillion dbs, "I don't know, man, I thought Rob was taller, thinner, he seems a little weighty and slightly warm-bodied, there is too much tone, really thick texture there, they don't sound neutral tonight, do those guitars sound accurate? Naw, I think they must be an artifact of some type, too full and warm for me, Rob's gotta' play thinner, his top end hasn't irritated me in the least" .......Best, Rob |
For me WE is not a new direction.
On the (capacitor thread) it was all about hearing a vintage tube amp smoke my (fairly expensive $10k) SS on my existing Alnico Lascala's.
I could not believe it. Real sound as Yazaki-san would say!
Since then all has been in that direction and Duelund Silver 2.0 is not unnatural sounding wire. So the competition is not going to be easy!
It was since the WE was first heard on Khorns and tubes (on Jeff's page) from a guy with Duelund caps and he really liked it peaked my interest.
I know he has heard some substantial improvements with Duelund and if WE is worth talking about as he does it must be something?
We will see! |
Mikirob great painted scenario and very very funny. I am still laughing. Thanks for that. One I will not forget!!! |
Yeah, sometimes we need to laugh out loud about ourselves. Best, Rob |
I have been listening to Kondo silver interconnects for the better part of the week and tonight I put the Belden interconnects back in and WOW so much music coming from the Belden interconnects.
Soon I'll have something to say about Western electric 16 gauge interconnects! |
Jet, I need to hear from you sooner! Ha! I want to build a set, but am waiting on your initial impressions. |
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Grannyring, I have about 150 hours on the WE16ga interconnects that I built and think they are worth doing. In my system and to my ears they provide as much musicality and emotional connection as the Belden ICs but with a slightly leaner more direct presentation. Belden ICs lend the music a bit more meat on to its bones. Slightly more voluptuous. I think it will be system dependent as to which a listener would prefer. Phduncanson, a Agon member and contributer stopped by tonight and he listened blindly to the Kondo, Belden and Western Electric ICs and on most music he preferred the Western Electric. Sometimes he preferred Kondo, but with this short blind test he concluded Western Electric was the way to go. He didn't know
my preference. We both think Western Electric interconnects have a lot of potential. I am going to leave them in the system and will follow up. - Jet |
Before I went to bed last night I put the kondo cables back in and listened to them this morning and then I put in the Western electric cables. They have most all of the inner resolution and beauty of kondo plus a huge jump in musicality and emotional connection. Musicality just leaps into the room. Listening to Belden this morning and they fall behind the WE ICs. In my system they lack the resolution and clarity of WE ICs. Belden is richly colorful but I would argue the Western electric cables have a broader color palette and have at least as much emotional connectivity if not a bit more at least to my ears. Last night Phduncason mentioned the emotion he felt coming from my system when we were listening to Johnny Hartman/Coltrane cd. It was strange he mentioned it at that moment since I was feeling and hearing the same thing. I had not listened to this recording since building the WE ICs. Serious food for thought...jet |
Jetrexpro-
Which RCA's did you use? An obvious candidate might be the Switchcraft Gold.
Did you use a simple loose twist?
Thanks for trying this out - and apparently succeeding. |
Jetrexpro, Grannyring,
This information is music to my ears. I want to thank both of you and some others for your brave DIY experiments regarding the WE16ga/Belden, pushing the boundaries of what is known, or can be expected from these excellent wires.
Grannyring, you jumped first with a leap of faith, Jetrexpro not far behind and trailblazing with his own experiment. The two of you especially are to be commended for helping to bring "real sound" at an affordable price to the Agon community. Best, Rob |
Hi Jet,
Johnny Hartman/John Coltrane ? oh yeah! I've owned that classic recording for many years and still listen to it regularly. Just beautiful music and what a good choice for emotional connectivity. It must sound terrific through your system.
Charles, |
Thank you Rob this has been my pleasure. My WE interconnects have around 160 hours so over the coming weeks I'll be able to see if these obversations hold true over long term listening. I'm hopeful and think they will. If there is synergy between Belden/WE combo there should be even more synergy WE/WE combo. I'll know in a few weeks. |
Yes sir Charles it doesn't get much better!! Last night we listened to classical and jazz as I wanted as much input from Phduncanson as possible. I listen to quite a lot of rock music too but last night I wanted the comparing to be done with acoustic instruments. |
Echo the superb listening choice. I'm going to put it on now, relax on this rainy southern Georgia morning. Perfect! |
Maxima95, I used very low mass (very small) no name RCA plugs I had lying around. No twist.
At this point I don't have any recommendations for RCA Plugs. Sound continues to change even today. I am hearing a bit of tinniness in the high end....Slightly brittle - this was not present last night. |
I will build a set just like the Belden using the WE wire and report back. I will use the 3502aau Switchcraft connectors, tinned copper shielding braid connected at both ends. I will twist the wires. I want to replicate the Belden cable using WE wire. |
Quad runs of WE16 and WE14 continue to break-in and hit their stride over here. They are a bargain and very likable because they are musical and commit no fatal flaws. I find them "mellow" in the HF but natural, even if they are not as "pristinely clear" sounding or quite as extended as the best OCC wires I have here. They continue to add a bit of warmth/body from the upper midrange through the bass, which adds to their musicality and which I find to be a good thing. Bass with these wires is full and powerful, with just the right amount of bloom. The bass on Alice in Chains Unplugged is sounding perfect.
Next I am going to throw even more wire at another pair of cables and make a bi-wire set from the WE 10 awg that I purchased as twisted pairs. I plan to use a twisted-quad run for the LF (i.e., 7 awg) and a twisted pair for the MF/HF.
This may be the same WE 10 awg wire that TWL is using to make their American Series speaker cables, based on their literature indicating they use 210, 30 awg wires, which is 7 awg and would result from two 10 awg wires, assuming they are running quads of the 10 awg wire. If you order bi-wire cables, they use separate 7awg runs to both the LF and the MF/HF...that is a lot of wire!
One reason I think using more wire sounds good in my system is that I am running a very high current amplifier compared to Yazaki-san and his crew, Jeff Day and the folks at Shun Mook Audio, who are using the WE16 wire in twisted pairs between lower powered amps and high efficiency speakers. I am not surprised I like more wire since my system throws a lot more current to the speakers...different strokes. |
Grannyring, this will be an interesting alternative to the Belden and no harm no foul which ever you prefer since they are so inexpensive. I am listening right now and the energy and musicality is something else. They will need many hours to come around. At 125 they still had a veiled mono toned sound. Finally on Friday night at about 150 hours they opened up and wow did they ever open up. The mids and lower mids are clean clear and fully expressed like no other cable I have heard in my system. Bass is deep rich and clean. We'll see about the highs and if that little bit of brittleness is an issue. Regards-jet |
Mitch 2- I had some well reputed silver speaker cables here for a while and they had beautiful air and upper mids that created a wonderfully detailed presentation but when I put back in my WE16ga speaker cables there was no doubt that I preferred the WE speaker cable. As you say the lower mids and bass are deep rich but clean. They lay a great foundation. I find their total presentation completely satisfying. |
I agree Jetrexpro.
For you guys making ICs, have you considered trying some of the WE tinned solid core wire in cotton using something in the 22-24awg range with either one or two conductors...or a braid. 22-24 awg solid core wire has proven pretty good for ICs over the years.
BTW, after doing a little digging, I found there are more than a couple of folks making cables out of the WE wire. Mojo Audio apparently had good luck with PCs. TWL and J&K Audio (at more competitive prices) offer ICs, SCs and PCs. There is also Shun Mook Audio in CA, and several in Asia where this wire seems to be well-regarded. |
I see that tajacobs has several spools of solid core 22ga WE wire pretty cheap. I am tired of all this experimenting:) jet |
It beats experimenting with expensive wire :~)
I have some connectors I need to use anyway. |
you should go for HiDiamond.
High-End fine cables at affordable price. You will amazed. |
Because of the length of this thread, I held off reading it for quite a while. Now I regret that.
Could someone please provide a link to the *exact* WE16 that Tajacobs is selling on eBay (if there's any left.)
There are a lot of products on her page, and I'd like to ensure that I pick up the right one.
Thanks! |
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Rhanson739,
Yes that is the the correct one I believe. She also has red. She has a box for questions, ask her if it is the stranded tinned copper. She doesn't list the specifics in her description as she did before. Best, Rob |
Rhanson739, That is Correct. The seller is tajacobs. I don't know how much of that stranded 16ga is left. The stranded 16ga wire I have was made in the 70's and 80's. Looks like you ran across some from the 90's. If its from tajacobs it should be legit. Get as much as you can.
Mitch2, I bought 50ft of 22ga solid core wire from Tajacobs. |
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Thank you, Rob. I'll contact her.
Rob |
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I am building the IC's based on the proven wire:) I tried the solid core for speaker cables and not as good. Loss of the musicality we all love. Perhaps more aphile top end extension, but at sonic cost! |
Rhanson739 - Looks like tajacobs and several 6ft stranded 16ga speaker cables left. If you can live with 6ft long speaker cables Grab it now!
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=tajacobs&_sop=12&_osacat=0&_ipg=50&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1312.R2.TR9.TRC1.A0.H0.Xwe.TRS2&_nkw=western+electric+speaker+wire&_sacat=0 |
Sadly, I don't think 6' will work for my needs. I'll double check, though. |
Rhanson739 - 6ft 8inch. Here's the link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/68-Western-Electric-speaker-wire-16-ga-PAIR-red-red-black-soaked-in-RARE-/351474579429?hash=item51d58477e5 |
Rhanson379,
As of this morning Tajacobs still has the stranded tinned copper 16ga in both the red and black; and it it appears she has this still on spools. You need to go into her site under "see all items" and you will find it. Good hunting, Rob. |
You may be amazed with High Diamond, but seriously not as amazed as with the WE16ga, laugh out loud! Best, Rob |
If you are a Monte Carlo high roller I suppose at $900 a meter these cables could be listed under the heading of: "Looking for Really Fine Cables at a Really Low Price." Further LOL!!! Bet they don't sound better; but they look really nice, like a hot James Bond piece of jewlry from Monte Carlo. Best, Rob. |
Mikirob --
Problem is, I think I'm looking at the stranded tinned, but it doesn't say so specifically. I have a message in, but so far, no reply. It would be nice if the listing was more specific... don't want to buy the wrong thing. |
Jet --
Thanks for the link. I popped on 2 pairs. They had me at "soaked in" and it looks as though 6' 8" will just about work, although I'll have to clip those terminals off.
Next issue is that my Maggies only take bananas, so I won't be able to go in with bare wire, as far as I know. I'm sure I'll work something out.
Rob |
Rhanson739, Some banana female terminals like my Audio Notes can be unscrewed and bare wire can be secured. At least you have the wire! |
I bought 50ft of 22ga solid core wire from Tajacobs. Jetrexpro, that is the same wire I would like to try but I need to finish the Belden ICs yet. When you finish your ICs with the 22awg solid wire, let us know what you think. Am I the only one here building balanced (XLR) cables? I tried the solid core for speaker cables and not as good. Grannyring, I am not surprised the stranded sounds better as speaker cable but I would be surprised if it sounded better as interconnect cables. Did you try the solid core wire in interconnects? If so, what gauge did you use? |
Jet -- Yes, indeed. This should be interesting, especially given the price. So, I picked up the two pairs of 6' 8" 16g "tinned 25 tinny strands" seen HERE, one pair for each speaker on a single-strand run. Seems cool, and I don't have to wait the 100 hours for burn in. What's frustrating is that at these prices, I'd like to try out a double-run similar to Grannyring's experimentation, but I can't discern if the spooled cable is what I'm looking for, and tajacobs has not yet returned an answer. I do have some 'evidence' that might be helpful: This spool of red says "probably from the 90s", and I'm okay with that, as earlier stock is probably gone now. But, the description does not suggest that it's tinned, which seems to be a big contribution to the results others have had. My thought is to get 4 lengths of this, two for each speakers' positive posts. But, on the black wire listed, the picture shows an end that looks, to me, like a tinned wire, so I'm thinking that both of these are what I'm looking for. If so, another 4 lengths for the other speaker posts. Only difference I can see is one is from the 80s, one from the 90s. (I think they'd only struggle with the 70s, and most of us old folks have done.) Think this would work out? Rob |
Rhanson379,
That is tinned copper in black. The red is almost certainly the same. Tajacobs has a generous return policy. It is likely you should go for it. As she stated, "limited quantities left." Best, Rob |
Rob, you have ordered the correct wire. |
Daggnabit...
I should've gotten there earlier. Although I got the used 6'8" wire pairs, when I tried to order off the spool in order to double run, I couldn't seem to muster up enough quantity to get the job done.
"3 left", I assume means "3 feet left." That's not much. |
