Looking for a DAC for the Squeezebox Touch

Elem79, I have a question. Did you ever have an issue with clicks and pops after a while with the sbt and iDac? Sometimes I need to switch away from the input I'm using and then come back to eliminate the issue. Usually it comes back after a while.

Earlxtr,

Please tell us more about the way you used the Audio DG: Was it SB Touch > coax > Audio DG > coax > Metrum?

Thanks!

I got the Audio DG Digital Interface just for kicks and it made absolutely no difference to the sound over the Octave itself, at least to my ears. The manufacturer was correct, don't waist your money. My Digital Interface is going on the ebay. Bye Bye...

Audiojedi, I also use the Black Cat SilverStar between my Transporter/Metrum combo...luckily I have a BNC out on my Transporter but the Metrum needs to be modified to change out the RCA for a BNC. It's on my list but I have yet pulled the trigger. If i do it and remember to check back in here, i'll let you know if it is worth it.

VERY happy SB Touch->Metrum Octave user here, I was sleepless for a couple of nights before I received my DAC thinking that I might need an interface box but when I got everything going it worked so well I decided to leave it as is. It would be nice to go BNC to BNC to accomodate the cable I'm using(Black Cat Silverstar 75) but again, sometimes best to leave well enough alone.

I have been a DAC of the month club member since the Benchmark DAC1 first came out but this one will have me off the merry go round for longer than the others I think, the presentation is a lot better than anything else I've had. Was looking at a possible $5k upgrade as that seems to be the level where you realy get a big improvement these days but my "Champagne taste on a beer budget" attitude towards audio led me to the Metrum.

It has detail, great separation and excellent tone but somehow manages to be very easy to listen to at the same time. For the price I figured I'd take a chance and I'm glad I did...

My squeezebox touch died over the weekend. The logictech logo appears only and then shuts down after about 2 minutes. I unplugged it but it did the same thing again. Instead of looking for a dac, now I need a music server also. So I decided to step away from the Touch and purchased a almost new Olive 04hd music server here on agon. It's an all in one system (Cd ripper, music server and dac with both analog and digital outputs) so I don't need the Welbourne power supply I purchased and the separate 500gb powered hard drive. Anyone interested in purchasing the Welbourne power supply let me know. I'll throw in the hard drive also.

Yeah, you are probably right. Bunch of fools hanging around here taking the time to try different USB to SPDIF converters, then taking the time to share their findings with the rest of us. And gets worse: it's group thinking too, as they all tend to agree!

You might want to educate yourself about what jitter is. I don't think a DAC can reduce what jitter is being fed. Might have ways to mitigate the nasty effects of a jittery signal it receives, but can't reduce it. DACs do introduce their own share of jitter, though, and I believe that is what 40 ps is. But you can believe what you'd like...you are likely thinking I'm a fool already! :-)

The manufacturer (Metrum) states that no matter what source is being feed to it, it reduces the jitter to <40ps. (otherwise the 40ps claim is pointless and they would not consider a jitter reducer a waist of money). I would think they know their own DAC better then anybody and would know what would make it sound better.

Since each word of data arrives every 1/44,100 seconds or 22676ps (for redbook material), 40ps is a 0.176% possible variance, which is extremely low. Even if you feed it with a lower jitter source it would likely not improve the actual jitter of the DAC.

IMHO, you can Google "The ten biggest lies in audio" and add reclockers to the list, at least for the Octave.

Earl

I don't know, guys. I have no vested interest in neither answer, but reducing jitter at the source makes sense to me. The way Cees answered the question seems he might be referring to no device needed to lower the jitter introduced by the Octave, why is very low indeed. But I believe the issue at hand is jitter included in the signal supplied to the Octave. Another designer, Steve Nugent from Empirical Audio, is constantly saying he believes reducing jitter at the source (before the DAC) is the single most valuable thing in digital audio - I know, he sells a USB to SPDIF converter, but he also sells asynch USB DAC.

When several users consistently report improvements using USB-to-SPDIF converters, and the better regarded converters consistently outperform the lesser converter+Octave combos...I tend to believe there is something to it.

As far as the Touch (the original subject of the thread) + Octave, in a couple of months I expect to start reading reports about Empirical Audio's yet-to-launch Synchro Mesh placed in between, which is exactly aiming the jitter at the source issue. We'll see what users have to say!

Such interesting times in digital audio! Enjoy!

Earlxtr,

Thanks for sharing your communication with the vendor. Same as you I do not want to pay a few hundred bucks for a DAC and then find that I need to spend another couple of hundred to be able to fully take advantage of it. Too bad there is no way to audition this .

"Wonder if it's worth to get the Metrum Octave to connect directly to a SB3 through optical link without reclocker?"

K330,

I contacted Metrum with the same question

"While I am waiting for my Octave to arrive I have one question. Some have said that the Octave is very jitter sensitive and that a good quality reclocker between the Squeezebox Touch and the Octave will improve sound quality. Is that possible or even probable? There is so much of what I call 'Voodoo' in the audio industry and amongst audiophiles that is hard to know what to believe. I don't like wasting my money on imaginary benefits ;))

To which they replayed

"Yes there is a lot of Voodoo so be careful. As you know there was a very good reviews from 6moons and the Hificritic where the dac was compared with very expensive units (+ 10000 Euro’s) and it was very close. The Octave has a very low jitter ( below 40 pSec) so there is no need for some extra gear to reduce this. Difference in sound by this gear is mostly created by upsampling and people do not realize that this up sampling methods create ringing in the signal. This is what you hear , pre and post ringing. There is no need for such devices as you cannot create info which is not actually there so please forget such gizmo’s . Only real hig res. material improves the sound."

Bottom like for me is that I am very very skeptical about many (most) of the so called audiophile 'upgrades'. When the manufacture of the product calls upstream jitter reducers (in so many words) a waist of money, I trust them a 1000 times more then any supposed audiophile claims.

Earl

The Da-160 is a solid choice. Currently working on my home setup.

Wonder if it's worth to get the Metrum Octave to connect directly to a SB3 through optical link without reclocker?
Thanks.

"In doing my research I soon realized that most people involved with primarily digital audio setups are on a different better or worse scale than the analog side. You can usually trust the, "it sounds better," remark, but I found just how much better is much less than analog."

Agree there is a much larger difference in sound quality in practice between the best and worse analog setups out there compared to CD/digital.

With digital, improvements with the digital source alone may be quite marginal at some point with greatly diminishing returns. Unless you are rolling in cash, I recommend doing the homework and starting with a well received sub $1000 DAC and see where that gets you compared to say any high end reference systems out there that you might have access to for comparison.

All stock...most of the Modwright mods impact the analog outputs which are pointless if taking it out to an external DAC. The Transporter is known for it's ultra low jitter so I don't feel the need to add an external clock source either although i'd give an Empirical Audio Offramp or other clock a try to see if there was a large enough improvement to consider. The Transporter does have a word clock input.

Jcote- Is your Transporter stock or Modwright?

+1 on the Metrum Octave...doing wonders in my system Logitech Transporter > Shindo Masseto/Cortese.

I like how the guys at Burson design their gear around the true analog sound, adding the DA-160 would make a nice mix between analog and digital. Have a listen to it if you have a retailer near.

Vic,

I appreciate your response especially your advise not to go overboard. Digital is not my main source but I would like to hear music smooth and full and not too digital. From what I read the Rega and Burson might fit the bill for under $1k. I'll look into the Octave also. My digital system is simple, I'm using the Squeezebox Touch connected with a USB cable to an external hard drive and will feed the dac with a coax cable.

Read the comparison between Elberoth2's dCS and the Metrum Octave in the, "Experience with Metrum Octave DAC," thread.

I was in the same boat not long ago and my short list was very similar to yours. In doing my research I soon realized that most people involved with primarily digital audio setups are on a different better or worse scale than the analog side. You can usually trust the, "it sounds better," remark, but I found just how much better is much less than analog. So, don't stress your budget unless digital is going to be your new primary source.

i5 Mini Mac 8GB, Pure Music > Miecord ethernet cable > Air Port Extreme > Squeezebox Touch / Channel Island Pwr Spl> StraightWire Data-Link RCA SP/DIF > Metrum Acoustics Octave DAC >

If there's ethernet anywhere in your audio chain study up on Miecord. Don't go nuts on SP/DIF cable, Berkeley Audio ships Straightwire with their gear. In my perfect world I would lose the wireless and have a dedicated Mini and a display which would change things to USB and possibly a different DAC that would cost twice as much. Screw that! This set up is surprisingly good.

I'm replacing a Denon 5900 Universal DVD/SACD with the full boat ModWright Absolute Truth tube output stage and outboard power supply modifications. This player was equal to and usually better than those DAC's on my short list.

I need to point out that my experience with digital is limited to auditioning seven DAC's in my system and I'm not counting anything I've heard elsewhere.

That said, the little $700 Metrum Octave has been a stunning surprise. I was unable to audition this DAC but I can honestly say that everything I've read about it is true. IMO, there is a fundamental difference between LP and Digital that will NEVER be the same. The better or worse is not the point. For the first time I'm hearing an ease and lushness that, while different, is as nice as analog. For me this was huge and makes suggesting the Octave easy.

Now, if your all bothered by the need for 192, USB, Balanced, etc. then my research took to Empirical Audio and the soon to be Hot Rod DAC or Lampizator $1500 - $6000.

The best advise I can give is, don't go overboard, remember the incremental improvements are small and the cost of diminishing returns and quick obsolescence is stupid. Save your money for great speakers.

Bondmanp, as you stated,it would be a difficult choice without a return option. I'll consider it but I need to do more research.

I love my K-Works Superberry DAC. It's a highly modified Beresford 7510, with two coax and two optical inputs. The retail for this is around your price point of $1K. The Superberry, in a local audio club shoot out, tied a $10K MSB DAC. I use it with my SBT and my stock Oppo BDP-93. Both sound great, but I have a much better digital cable on the Oppo, so it is not a fair contest.

Unfortunately, K-Works has no distribution, so you must buy direct, with no return option. Unless you can visit K-Works in Clifton, NJ, or locate a nearby owner willing to let you listen, an audition will be difficult. But this DAC is super-smooth, detailed, dynamic and about as undigital sounding as I've heard in this general price range.

I haven't heard the Burson DAC, but I own the Rega DAC. Not a hint of dryness or graininess. Not saying its the best $1k DAC to everyone's ears, but it's easily the best I've heard.

Ronrags,

I am also after a DAC to pair with my Touch, but funds don't allow to make a move yet. However, I am very interested in the Metrum Octave. It's just under $1k. Has only a coax and an optical input (dealbreaker for some). It's a non-oversampling DAC, with a totally different topography compared to most DACs. Take a look at the 6moons review, and from the Metrum website you can also access a HiFi Critic review. Natural, organic sound is what most people report (reviews and users). I'm really interested in this one.

BTW, Steve at Empirical Audio is working on a new device designed to be placed between the Touch and a DAC, that allegedly handles jitter from the Touch and should be an improvement. That's another device that caught my interest.

Please keep us posted. As said, I'm after a DAC for the Touch too!

Take a look at the Audio Note. A 1.1 in your range or a 2.1 at slightly more.

They pair great with the Squeezebox and offer as much of what's valued in analog as I've heard in a digital front end.

Well I'm back again looking for a DAC in the $1000 range. I tried the W4S DAC 1 and wasn't totally impressed. It was connected to the dac using a Black Cat coax cable. It was a bit dry and grainy in my system when compared to playing a cd thru the Oppo 95. I'm using an upgraded power supply with the SB and an external USB hard drive. My system also includes the Classe SSP-600 and CA-5100 driving the Focal 1027be.

I recently read an interesting review of the Burson DA-160 from 6moons. From what I read, the Burson is musical and analogue-like. I'm also considering the Rega DAC.

Thanks for the response Elem79.

So you hear a definite improvement with the addition of the peachtree DAC over the straight analogue out on the SB Touch? You think it's worth the investment?

Davidinva, I am using the Peachtree iDac with a SBT and couldn't be happier.

What about the Peachtree DACiT -- anyone tried it? It gets great reviews and some seem to prefer it over the DACMagic.

Note that adding a better power supply (in my case the Pangea P100) to the DACMagic bumps it up to another level and sounds even better with the SBT. Amazing.

Sorry to reawaken this thread, but Ronrags, I was wondering how the Welborne power supply worked out for you?

Ronrags, the Wellborne helped knock some of the digititis out of my setup, but it wasn't until I added the Burson that I was satisfied. SB internet radio was particularly improved by the modifications. The SBT is essentially my only source for my secondary system; I only use my CDP for CD's not yet added to my HD.

The manual on the W4S says it takes 100-200 hours. You can hear some improvements after the 100 hours.

Ronrags

Expect about 200 hours before it is fully broken in.
Enjoy...

Also, using an ethernet cable to the Touch is a pretty good upgrade from using the Touch wirelessly.

Ronrags, it all depends on what kind of gear you have, how revealing, etc. You should experience a tad more in dynamics and more of a 3d sound holographic soundstage. You really need a good dac to get the sound out of a touch. I reclock and upsample as well and the touch can really sing. Stick some 96k 24 bit music on a usb stick in the touch and put it through a good dac. Wow! I'm hearing differences from sacd that I like alot.

Wait for the upcoming Burson dac for under 1k i think.

Smortega, I received the Welborne power supply for the SB Touch last night but didn't get a chance to use it. I assume there is a break-in period as with all electronics. What difference can I expect to hear using this power supply over the stock power wart and how long is the break-in period?

I'm also waiting the delivery of the W4S dac1. What kind of break-in period can I expect?

I was surprised the Dacmagic made such a difference...I'm using the coax digital output on the SBT to the DAC and the xlr balanced outs from the DAC to my balanced Kavent preamp. A more coherent sound with tighter bass than the SBT alone, and simply a different tone all around. I upgraded the cables (xlr A'quest Diamondbacks and A'quest solid core coax). Also the Dacmagic provides 3 more blue lights! I'm sure it's a synergy thing, but I'm also running a digital coax to the DAC from an old Marantz CD changer, and that is improved also. I can now clearly hear the difference between a decent Pandora signal (pretty good) and a wifi iTunes lossless (amazingly good).

Wolf-Garcia, maybe it's my ears or system, but I cannot tell the difference between my DACmagic and the SBT.

Dacmagic...no longer hip but still the one to beat for features, price, and sound. Improved my SBT sound a LOT...love it.

Spacemanrick: Yes, for sure it was a significant improvement. I am surprised at how much the DAC's changed the sound of my system. As for the value question, tough one. $1K is a lot and can go a long way towards other toys like amps / preamps so I can't really answer this one. (For me the DAC2 was worth it even though it meant my wife got a fancy purse to "even" things up)

Any chance you have a local store that would let you demo it before committing to buy?

Gotta keep the local guys around as much as possible....

Thanks for the response. I guess it is a matter of taste and preferences.

Juggernaut850, was there a significant improvement in sound from the Rega Dac and the internal DAC in the Squeezebox Touch? Coming from no external DAC at all right now in my B&W 802DI system I am wondering if the $995 upgrade to the Rega DAC is significant enough to justify the cost.....

Hi Ronrags,

I had the Rega for a week in my system courtesy of my very local kind B&M store.

It sounded great, to my ears it made music. Really easy sound nothing objectionable and it was a step in the direction I wanted to go from using the Havana unit (which I also enjoyed and had for over a year).

I would have happily purchased the Rega though I waited for the DAC2 to come in to the store for comparison and wanted to at least try it out to see if I would prefer it.

We compared both the Rega and DAC2 (in store) with a few other interested shoppers and everyone agreed the DAC2 was better for their own reasons; for me it was that the DAC2 provided more detail and bass authority without getting edgy at all. Just what I wanted in my system.

So that was it for me and it was confirmed in my own system at home later in the day, and I have no regrets.

I don't think you can make a bad decision here, both are great units and both made a significant upgrade in my system.

Juggernaut850: Can you tell me why you preferred the W4S DAC2 over the Rega?

Rega at a grand is one that you should hear.

You are not alone! Several people report the same as you. I haven't been able to try it myself as I don't have any hardware capable of decoding 24/192, but I suspect I won't hear a difference either.