@daveyf , with respect, do you really believe that your opinions count as much as those of previous owners, given that you as a dealer have a financial interest in supporting this turntable come what may?
Furthermore, its funny you also suggest Linn should improve the deck further to keep it competitive. Remember it's easily been the most hyped product in the entire history of domestic audio since it's rather dubious origins. So surely all users gave a right to expect all iterations of it to sound reasonable?
As for Linn's current marketing direction, their entire history is littered with contradictory claims. Trust them to move away from vinyl when others are moving back. Ivor was no great innovator, more of a marketing genius. His son has a near impossible job in his hands. Poisoned chalice maybe?
Perhaps he should remember that as long as vinyl remains a valid way to sidestep the so-called loudness wars afflicting digital it will always have a place in serious audio.
I've had my LP12 for around 30yrs.. upgraded along to the way to Lingo, Cirkus and Naim Aro... currently using a vintage Grace F9 Ruby MM cart.. Makes beautiful music.. I've heard many expensive TT over the years.. never felt the urge to upgrade. For me the LP12 is a keeper.
@latenitecity. Thank you for sharing that. Unfortunately, on this thread and many others about the LP12; there are folks who unlike you, have never owned a LP12, or who did decades ago...and yet these very same folks are far more experienced in the ownership and understanding of how this table works and sounds, than the both of us.
Just discovered this thread and thought I’d chime in.
I’ve had an LP12 for (at least) 25 years. The motor recently conked out and I was going to use this as an opportunity to get my Cirkus/Ekos/Linto/Lingo version keeled and radikalized - until I recently went to an audio show and heard a Palmer 2.5/Origami arm which caused me to consider changing direction. (BTW, none of the other “super turntables” I heard at the show caused the same reaction). Anyway, I started a thread on this forum to solicit advice about which direction to go, and daveyf was kind enough to share his thoughts.
The thought I would like to share on this thread is that I never had a problem with the Linn the whole time I had it, and it got a lot of use! It never went “out of tune” or got sluggish, unfocused, etc. Quite the contrary, it has been a problem-free, consistently musical joy to use, so I am always surprised to read that others find it to be finicky and/or unreliable.
I still haven’t decided whether to go with the Palmer or an upgraded Linn, but it’s an awfully nice problem to have, and I’m pretty sure that I’m in a win-win situation.
It was very long ago Davey, probably one of the early ones. There wasn't much to it. Now I have a Technics SP-10MKIII, Teac TN-400, JVC QL-F6, Micro Seiki
SX-1500
FVG, Empire 598, Dual
CS 714Q
and Technics SL-1200 and maybe a couple of other ones. Anyway most are pretty good.
When you follow the dominoes that fall from such an understanding, you arrive at the fact or point, that any discussion of the stock market or wall street is a weird pear shaped discontinuity in logic and reason... as the ground it walks on -and is built out of- is a tightly controlled fantasy.
forewarned=forearmed : from gains pains and capital
Jerome
Powell is worth over $100 million. He is not using his position as Fed Chair to
launch a later career giving speeches for $250K or signing advisory deals as
former Professors Bernanke and Yellen were.
As a
result of this, Powell actually believes in his role as Fed Chair as it was
originally intended… namely to focus on the ECONOMY, not the stock markets. He
isn’t interested in maintaining the Bernanke/ Yellen created Everything Bubble.
He is interested in getting the Fed back on course by normalizing policy.
With
that in mind, the stock markets will be returning to levels associated with
ECONOMIC realities, rather than their bubbly heights. Economically
sensitive assets such as Lumber and Housing have made it clear where that is:
2,100 on the S&P 500.
there is a six part do it yourself video on youtube. lmao. what other table needs that kind of attention? its not a 100K table that the designer comes to your house to set up. I think the linn needs that. Like a doctor making house calls.
@paulcreed Remember Paul, all of these naysaying folks have far more experience with the LP12 than we do, even though most of them either have never owned the table, or they briefly owned it decades ago!
It's not hard you put it in a Linn box, ship it. It comes back in a week or two. Take it out of box and put a record on it. You should be good for 5 to 10 years. Just send it to someone that takes pride in his work. Rick at Audio Alternatve or Shelleys in California, I'm sure there are others.
if the table is that complex that it needs a high priest to get it right, thats a problem. Actually, I am not looking for a new table. the 1200G really does a lot right for the money I could always upgrade the arm if I wanted to which I don't. If I could get a linn for say between 500 and 1000 bucks, it would neat to tinker with it but I probably will not. the whole thing with the North American distributor being 2 miles away and will not let me listen leaves a bad taste in my mouth. bad business. IMO.
One of lp12 biggest competitor was the Rega p3 in mid 70's. Some may say Rega 3 was better sound also plug and play. The Linn had to offer upgrades from basic power supply and basic arm. Sky's the limit what you can spend now. This table is not for most people. It needs to be shipped off to be tuned properly, it does not go out of tune with new springs and grommet's installed with tune up. It has ridden on my front seat of 4x4 truck a few times, not the smoothest ride. Never a problem once returned home, sounds just like it did many years ago after returning from tune up. I get tired of this go out of tune crap, it's almost laughable. This table has its own sound it's not going to please everyone, the only one it has to please is me.
Right, their digital is not an easy sell. However, I truly believe if they were to come out with further improvements on the table...or better still, a new upgrade that would allow for more and better arms...then they would have a robust market for that turntable.
NOBODY WANTS THEIR DIGITAL EITHER You'll never hear them here .we have 2 linn dealers. neither was part of the road show for the akurate streamer. why? they cant sell it to their customers:mega buck customers: aurender customers....even naim customers
@cd318 It is pretty clear from your description that your dealer didn't really know how to set up the table. If it sagged on one side after a short time, it was because the dealer didn't get the spring tension correct and failed to tighten the bolts sufficiently! Like I stated before, you didn't have enough experience to realize what was going on..and so you blamed the table. A short drive of 20 miles would have given you a BIG benefit, IMO. The cartridge you mention is nothing special...and would have held the deck back.
@theoriginalthor1 I agree with you, Linn themselves have gone in a different and non analog friendly route ( plus how consumer friendly it is is another question). Having spoken personally to Gilad, I can tell you, he is not really interested in analog anymore. They will be coming out with a server soon..and other digital products. Personally, I believe his lack of interest in what gave his company their start and their success, is a bad omen for the future of his company.
After slogging through those six instructional youtube videos, it looks like most of the set-up and adjustment process is routine and achievable within the skillset of a reasonably handy owner. No dog in this fight, but the several knowledgeable LP12 owners in my circle have since moved on to other tables. Personally I'd rather put the money into a Herzan platform for my unsprung Luxmann PD444, Kenwood L07D, or Technics SP10 MkII.
@daveyf , it actually had the Ittok arm with the K18 MM (I started with the K9 - had no wish to go the MC route) set up and updated (arm board, sub chassis, oil and springs/ grommets/ belt etc) to spec by a local Linn dealer. I remember bringing it home on the back seat of my car with the inner platter supported - outer one off.
Sure enough, it had to go back for adjustment not long after as one side began to sag low. Yes, I now realise that as a Linn owner you are at the mercy of your dealer. There was another highly respected one locally, but he was some 20 miles further.
So standing at a crossroads between more £££s for an Ekos/ Lingo upgrade etc or a respected CD player from Marantz/Sony, there really wasn’t much choice. At that time there was no shortage of interest for a used Linn, so selling it was pretty straightforward as I’d kept all the receipts/boxes etc.
Yes, you are right, definitely plug and play next time. Semi or fully automatic one would be nice.
@tzh21y You are not getting it! The whole problem of a table like the Linn, which needs to be set up very precisely is NOT to have an amateur like you ‘tinker’ with it! If you think the Technics 1200G sounds better than a properly set up Radikal D...well buddy, I guess as they say YMMV!
It is unfortunate that you would have to drive 200 miles to hear the table, but I suspect if you wanted to hear a new Basis or a new Tech Das etc.,...you would have to drive even further. That’s just the way it is with this type of gear, it’s not a Technics- soon to be handled by your nearest Best Buy!
costing more does not always equate in a better table. For example, the technics 1200G sounds better than the Linn Radical from what I remember to my ears.
Like I said, the scout was close in some ways to the linn, but the linn was better. 18K vs 1600 bucks is a big difference.
However, from your and other comments, I wanted to reverify my conclusion and listen to a newer updated Linn but I have to drive 200 miles to hear one which is a massive inconvenience considering the service and North American distributor of Linn is a couple miles away from me.
I mentioned the 6 videos on youtube because if there are six parts to a video on how to set up a Linn, that is too many steps and way out of line in this day and age, especially when they cost over 6k for a basic new Linn. with that being said, the linn has been around for fifty years so it obviously makes a lot of people happy with its sound and its good looks. So if I was able to acquire one that was reasonably priced, I could tinker with it while I listened to my 1200g.
@cd318. Fifteen year old Linn, set up poorly with a bottom of the line Basik plus arm and a entry level cartridge...is not going to perform at a very high level. Unfortunately, your LP12 experience sounds like someone sold you a bill of goods and even more unfortunately, you didn’t have the experience necessary to realize how to change that. A much better solution for you would have been a Rega or similar. Plug and play basically. I believe you are 100% correct, you needed a plug and play table back then...and you still do. But please don’t be naysaying the LP12 table simply because your experience with it wasn’t up to your expectations due to what sounds like bad dealer support and an inexperience on your behalf.
@daveyf You're right, I got rid of mine 15 years ago after poor performance and nothing but hassle. The LP12 money drain palaver (along with marriage/kids) finally resulted in me giving up vinyl for good.
Still kept around 50 records though. They hold far, far too many memories. And who knows, I may go back to vinyl in the future. But if I do I'll be looking at Technics, Pro-Ject, Rega, Funk Firm etc. Scarred for life by those crap Linn cartridges, and that ghastly 45rpm speed changer.
I spent lots of time taking my Linn back and forth to the Linn dealer. ....never to stay put. The only vinyl component I had more trouble with was the Helius Orion tonearm which had to be sent to England regularly for pivot issues.
@tzh21y why do you think that there are problems with the Linn set up....when we have folks considering the set up by looking at You Tube videos...Yikes! You now state that the LP12 Radikal was better, but it cost more?? Shouldn't it be better if it cost more, duh!
@cd318 Once again another opinion from someone who probably doesn't own a Linn! Having owned one of these tables in various forms over the last thirty years, I have never had a problem with it 'drifting' out of set up. Not once! Linn owners who have had their table set up by anyone who knows how to do the job have also never had the issue. Unfortunately, and as usual, there still are people who persist in putting in their 2 cents that really have no knowledge and thereby disseminate ongoing falsities. The Linn LP12 --particularly in its current guise, is certainly one of the victims of this behavior. Only question i have, is why Linn themselves don't step in and squash it? I guess these days they are too interested in selling their digital gear, too bad, IMO.
The suspension drift problems, and hence the mindbogglingly difficult set up, were well documented. It is disingenuous to refer to it as a myth. Many older decks had dodgy top pressed steel plates that were prone to warping. Getting the suspension to bounce properly and stay that way for more than a few days on those was nigh on impossible.
The top plate was eventually replaced by a new strengthened one by Linn (third party ones are also available). These may well address some of the problems, I don’t know.
Therefore if you are considering buying a used top plate for your endlessly updated Thorens TD150, I mean Linn LP12, be very careful. A whole world of pain is waiting.
Far safer to get a new top plate, be it from Linn or some third party. Without a well set up suspension the LP12 can sound very, very ordinary.
I myself would not mind a Linn as a 2nd table. The do have their virtues. Just because I said the scout bettered the Linn Radical in some ways does not mean that the scout was better. The Linn was better but it cost between 18 and 20K.
Their is a six part video on Youtube describing how to set up a Linn. Thats way too many videos for a setup of a table, especially when they cost upwards of 6K new at the low end. Time is money and I would rather be listening than fiddling with the Linn. However, if I could find one for a reasonable price, I like to tinker once in a while.
@stringreen Please tell me how you moved your Linn once the set up was completed. What protocol, if any did you use. There is a way to transport a suspension based table, fail to do that and all bets are off. Plus, again, I am assuming that the set up was done correctly in the first place, an assumption that has proven faulty on numerous occasions with this table. Did your Linn dealer or rep do the set up, or was it somebody else...you?
@whart It is true, I am an advocate of the Linn table, simply because I do not like to see this excellent table decried by folks who really have little to no experience with the most recent versions. Instead, what I see are folks who are putting in their two cents based on their recollection of the table from twenty years ago or more, and from others who have absolutely no experience with it whatsoever, but are only too happy to naysay it. Yes, the set up is crucial, but most Linn dealers were adept at that, and those that weren’t were usually able to direct you to someone who was. Problem is, that a lot of folks in the old days thought they knew how to do the set up themselves, leading to poor performance. These folks wouldn’t admit they had done anything wrong, so why not just blame the tool...or in this instance the design of the table. I can tell you, I have owned this table in one form or another for over thirty years, and never have I been tempted to trade it in on a VPI or similar. If you understand the basics of how to place the table, and how to move it if necessary, all of the ‘issues’ that we hear about it going out of tune go by the wayside. OTOH, if you don’t follow some basic rules, then a more plug and play option, perhaps like the VPI or the SOTA’s will be more rewarding for you.
What is the cost of a fully tricked out Linn today with the ’right’ upgrades, arm, etc.? I first heard one in the early seventies at Opus One in Pittsburgh, a hi-line salon that was really the mindspring of Tasso Spanos, a brilliant, quirky guy who sold equipment he thought sounded good- at the time of the Linn, he was the ARC dealer and introduced the Dahlquist. The Linn was very lively, very musical, but we’re talking about a musical memory of more than 40 years ago. When I lived in Brooklyn Heights in the ’80s, Innovative was a huge Linn dealer- I don’t know if they were the biggest in the States, but man, they were fully on board with the whole Linn experience. I heard some good systems there. I know you are a staunch advocate of the Linn table on the forums Davey, but perhaps other people have other directions? I’ve had several very good tables in my systems over the years. Every one, along with arm, isolation and of course cartridge, sounded different. The one thing that seems to be a big variable with Linn is set-up. I know with other tables, set up is key. My sense, whatever the merits of the table today, is that it has been overshadowed by other things in the marketplace. Whether or not those others are truly better, I’ll leave to those who have owned the Linn and moved on. Depending on the price of a full-on Linn it may also no longer be competitive. If I were going to spend a big sum on a table today (apart from the one I have), I’d be interested in hearing the EMT 927.
Davey.....how can you make a statement like that.....oh its only the internet. I replaced the Linn with a Sota, and then a VPI that I've had for ten years or so without a bit of trouble. Easy to upgrade .... and enjoy.
it must be which is silly. so how does one get a table updated to the current status. I looked on their website and found no such information. what happened to their forum? it was a great place to share info on Linns especially. what a loss for Linn owners. thats ridiculous.
@tzh21y I guess it depends where you are located. I do know that Linn are now handling distribution in the States themselves. Could it be that the so called local rep isn’t able to demo for you. Since Linn are taking over, it doesn’t surprise me that much that they don’t have a local dealer set up for you to hear the gear....yet. Although it willl depend on where you are in the country.
@stringreen What you stated tells me that your LP12 was never set up correctly in the first place. Once set up correctly, the table does not ‘drift’ or any such thing. Pure and utter myth. Now, how you transported it home, well that’s another question, lol.
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