The point is that there's more than one road to vinyl bliss. The LP 12 happens to be the road many of us choose to take
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Thanks daveyf and zavato. My answer to the original question in this thread is, "yes, the LP12 is still in use" despite its 'old design' and the LP12 serves as a "reference." lharasim suggested that current vogue favors idler wheel and direct drive turntables over belt driven designs like the LP12. For what it is worth, Thorens introduced a direct drive turntable in 1929. (See "Turntable, Brinkmann Oasis - a white paper" published by Brinkmann Audio Gmbh.) The idler wheel design is quite old, too, but I am uncertain of its first implementation. Suffice it to say that both of these "in vogue" drive designs are not new but rather are enjoying renewed popularity as some people have highly refined the implementations of each. VPI and Brinkmann manufacture fantastic direct drive turntables that significantly advance the state of the art that Technics established in the late 60's for its direct drive tables. Likewise, Chris Thornton and Chris Harban make gorgeous plinths into which restored Thorens and Garrard idler wheel turntables may be installed with excellent results. Art Dudley has written extensively about how to build your own massive plinth to get the best out of a Thorens or Garrard idler wheel table, though Mr. Dudley's plinths do not appear to be so beautifully finished as the Thornton or Harban plinths. So far as I know, the suspended subchassis belt drive design was the late bloomer here with Edgar Villchur introducing the AR-XA turntable in the early 1960's. Ivor Tiefenbrun introduced the LP12 in 1972 or 1973 using a design similar to the AR but much more refined and with much better sonic results. Perhaps I did not say this so explicitly in my earlier post but want to say it more emphatically here: The underlying design of a turntable, whether belt, idler wheel or direct drive, whether suspended or suspensionless, matters less than the refinement and implementation of that design. All of these designs offer the possibility of excellent results if the implementations are well engineered and manufactured. Until the LP12 came along, the common wisdom in audio dictated that turntables did not matter much. All they did was go round and round. Whether you liked the LP12 or not, Linn practically singlehandedly changed the audio industry in establishing the important role played by turntables. Linn has refined its design for more than 40 years and the LP12 is a reference, a very high standard reference, by which other turntables may be judged. Many, many LP12's remain in use and, if reasonably cared for and properly set up, provide high quality playback. Here is my personal experience, acknowledging that your mileage may vary: My circa 1989 LP12 has been upgraded to the mid-level Akurate build by using the Kore subchassis, Cirkus bearing and Lingo 3 power supply. (I use a Rega RB300 tonearm with a Koetsu Urushi Vermillion cartridge so the turntable is not all-Linn and may not satisfy Linn's requirements to be labeled as an "Akurate.") When compared to my far more expensive Spiral Groove SG1.1 with Triplanar VII uii and Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, the LP12 falls short in terms of bass extension and solidity, it is less quiet and less dynamic. The SG1.1 is more specific in its presentation: it plays more real, recognizable voices and instruments where the LP12 plays notes without the "real" quality that the SG1.1 imparts. The SG1.1 has a deeper and wider soundstage. That said, the LP12 is much less expensive than the SG1.1 and has been upgraded only to the middle level offered by Linn. The Rega RB300 cost less than 10% of what the Triplanar did and the turntable (without arm and cartridge) cost less than 20% of the SG1.1's MSRP. I believe that the RB300 fights well above its weight and can only be bettered if one spends much, much more money. While the Linn seems to lose on almost every parameter I discuss, it does not lose by all that much. The LP12 sounds great as-is and suggests that a fully-upgraded LP12 might well surpass the SG1.1, though I would not make that judgment until hearing both in my system. There is nothing new under the sun, at least as far as turntable design is concerned. The LP12 has been relentlessly refined and represents a reference-quality turntable. Depending upon the level to which an LP12 has been upgraded, and so long as it is competently set up, an LP12 can compare with the very best. |
Great post casaross. Agree 100% with what you say. The issue today, is that there are far too many people who have a memory of the LP12 that they heard back in the 80's or the 90's or early 00's. These same people still think that is what the table sounds like today. Nothing could be farther from the fact. Even the entry level Magik model,well set-up, can provide a great level of SQ for the money. The top flite LP12 Klimax SE with Radikal D can compete with any TT on the market, IMHO. |
I bought my first LP12 in 1982 and have owned one for most of the time since, though I have also owned other tables including several Rega P3's, the Roksan Xerxes, Roksan TMS, Michell Orbe SE, Avid Acutus, Spiral Groove SG2 and, currently, a Spiral Groove SG1.1. I recently updated my 1989-era LP12 from the glued subchassis Valhalla to a Kore with a Lingo. I retained my Rega RB300 during the update but moved from a Shure V15 Vxmr to one of my two Koetsu Urushi Vermillions. Of course, it is difficult to know how much of the improvement I experienced owed to the change in cartridge versus the subchassis versus the motor and power supply. Suffice it to say, however, that while the Linn is not as good as my Spiral Groove SG1.1, Triplanar VII uii, and Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, the differences are more subtle than dramatic. This encouraged me to upgrade my LP12 further, though I have not yet accomplished that. In my experience, there are a few observations I would make regarding the LP12. With an LP12, everything matters, starting with the surface upon which you place the turntable, the degree to which screws have been tightened throughout the turntable, suspension set up and even whether the dust cover lid is up or down when playing. To be fair, other turntables may be just as subject to influence of various, similar factors. Good set up is good set up regardless of turntable. The LP12 may, however, be especially subject to the "tweaky" and "difficult to set up" reputation because the LP12 has a suspension that can be challenging to tune. What, exactly, does a "perfectly pistonic bounce" look like, exactly? (Hint: It depends upon how and where you tap the platter.) While the suspension alone does not create all of the differences in LP12 performance based on set up, it is something that can puzzle and frustrate less experienced users. Getting the help of a good dealer is of great importance when setting up a Linn: Thomas O'Keefe in Michigan, Rick Duplisea in Colorado and Peter Swain in the UK come to mind as leading LP12 experts. The LP12 is hardly a single model. A Majik LP12 selling for $4,200 or so does not perform at a state of the art level as may a Klimax LP12 that sells for more than $20,000. It is a remarkable product in that owners can, piece-by-piece, take a competent base-level turntable and transform it to a very refined and expensive turntable as funds allow without needing to buy and sell turntables as one chases improved performance. Some liken the LP12 to a Porsche 911. The products both date back more than 40 years and both have been refined and refined and refined. Perhaps Linn would have better foregone the LP12's suspended subchassis and maybe Porsche should have mounted the engine in the middle of the car, not behind the rear axle. But maybe after having started in suboptimal places, each manufacturer has continuously improved the product to the point where each can compete with even more expensive and quite competent products. I recently met Linn's representative responsible for dealerships in Europe and he assured me that anything, anything that one could imagine doing to improve an LP12, Linn has tried. It is a substantial engineering company with 150 to 200 employees. A dealer with whom I spoke recalled a factory tour he took years ago where he saw approximately 200 different belts that Linn was experimenting with for the LP12. Linn has taken very seriously (obsessively?) the opportunities to optimize all aspects of the turntable. With approximately 150,000 LP12's having been sold, Linn has an incentive to keep experimenting and improving the LP12. I don't think that any other turntable manufacturer serves such a large installed base and thus has neither the prospective market, nor the resources, to continue to work on their tables as does Linn. Given that the LP12 is more than 40 years old, there are a lot of LP12's out there in pretty dismal condition. Bearings have been run without oil (lots of them), LP12's have been transported without removing the platter, thus risking damage to both the bearing and suspension. LP12's have been set up in all sorts of suboptimal ways by well-meaning but inexperienced users, thus greatly diminishing the performance people have heard. In short, your mileage may vary. Getting an LP12 carefully set up by a competent dealer or experienced user will likely provide a very good turntable and, at the highest level (Radikal, Keel, Ekos SE) will provide sound quality rivaling the best turntables. (Linn concedes nothing to any other manufacturer; they claim that the LP12 is the best turntable in the world regardless of price.) At the same time, a damaged table set up poorly that carries a so-so arm and indifferent cartridge can provide a not-so-great listening experience. I am obviously an LP12 fan. If one intends to listen to a turntable for years into the future, it seems like betting on Linn and the LP12 is a decent idea. With 150,000 LP12's in circulation, there will likely be people out there to support it. Linn is a substantial company with a succession plan already unfolding with Ivor Tiefenbrun's son now running the company. Many smaller turntable manufacturers may not survive as long nor have the economic incentive to support their tables sold in much smaller numbers. Furthermore, an LP12 is likely to be improved upon going forward. Linn has improved the LP12 continuously and, if you believe Linn, will continue to do so. While I am an LP12 fan, I sympathize with people who have had less than great experiences with LP12's. For reasons I have addressed, they aren't all great. Ivor Tiefenbrun, Linn and LP12 fans have an often well-deserved reputation for arrogance and an unwillingness to acknowledge that other turntables can produce good sound that rivals and may sometimes exceed the LP12. Idler wheel Garrards and Thorens can be terrific if tuned and maintained with a degree of care comparable to that which LP12's need. Direct drives from Technics, VPI and Brinkmann can also produce great results. The LP12 has no monopoly on great sound. But the list of companies who have claimed to have made turntables "better than a Linn" is quite long, far longer than the list of companies who have made the claim and remain in business today. |
If you are looking at cheaper turntables that are interesting, I would include Audio Note TT2 and JC Verdier La Platine(I think that's the name.). When it comes time to upgrade your turntable, there are many advantages to changing things on your turntable(Linn), rather than selling your entire turntable. |
Actually quite a number of my records could not be tracked by this table. The same cartridge on a different table had not issue. The particular record is one I used to take with to test at dealers. I was actually looking to buy a new model thinking they use have improved since I bought mine nearly two decades ago. Anyway not to beat a dead horse. These days I also use record weights which are not ideally suited to suspended tables. I seem to remember someone created an aftermarket kit that swapped out the springs for rubber suspension components. Never seen this in Canada but that would be interesting to try. |
The cartridges were likely set up correctly by an excellent Linn dealer. Mine was tuned up by the fellow considered number one in the area. My $200 plastic Technics P mount with elcheapo cartridge can play the record. The fact that. $4k turntable than has been built for 40 years could not at an authorized dealer is not a good thing. I don't see any modern tables emulating anything from the Linn design and few are staying with a sprung design of any kind let alone one like the Linn. I owned an older Thorens which was also sprung and certain aspects of the Linn are similar. The Thorens never went off and could always play all of my records. Of course it had neither the soundstage or PRaT of the Linn. I actually like the looks of the classic Linn. I had the nice grooved Afrmosia which is the classic look. |
Banerjba, what were the tracking forces used on the different tables? I doubt that they were the same. An incorrectly set up cartridge might not track well in one instance and would track better once correctly set up. Same thing applies for an incorrectly set up arm. As to the looks of the Linn, I don't subscribe to the fact that it looks bad. In fact I think the fluted look is pretty classic. Plus, one can change the plinth to make it look amazing. If you don't like the look of a plinth, that's another thing, BUT I think there are a LOT of TT's that look worse than the Linn and at all prices. |
Cartridges were Linn Adikt and Klyde. $500 and $4k respectively here in Canada. On my Linn my Linn Basik, K5 and Sumiko Blue Point cartridges could not track it. The same cheapo Linn Basik cartridge had no trouble on a different table, a Revolver with you guessed it a Linn arm. I was surprised that a modern Linn set up in a good shop could not play it either. BTW, I really liked the sound of both of the Linns I heard. I thought the Adikt was a really good cartridge. My dealer thought it would be a good match for my Rega P5. If Linn ever revives their non suspended designs like the original Basik or Axis, I would definitely consider them. I regret selling my Axis. One other thing that might work against or for the Linn is its appearance. A nice used one for a $1 to $2k looks similar to the new ones costing 10 times as much. There are some really nice looking tables out there now. Again, I am surprised Linn did not bring out a more modern looking table considering how attractive all of their other components are. |
But I agree with you Daveyf. I trully believe that a fully upgraded Klimax LP12 is in another league facing very few competitors. I'm a huge fan of Rega (simplicity/cost effective/musicality) but I also have to agree with you that the top of the line RP10 is not in the same league as a top flight Klimax LP12. That said, it comes really close to the Akurate LP12 at half the price. Get my point? If your idea is to keep the same TT for life then the entry level Majik LP12 (or any used Sondek LP12 in pristine condition) makes sense because of its upgradeable path as funds allow. However, if your idea is to go with something great but more affordable, then there are many options out there; Sota, VPI, Acostic Signature, Rega, Clearaudio, Thoresns, Townshend, just to name a few. You also hit the nail when you expressed that the LP12 was more "to your liking" when compared to the Palmer. You mentioned you got "burned" at the Linn vs Sota blog, correct? It's hard to persuade others to agree with your own opinions. That's exactly the beauty of this hobby. Put together a nice system that will satisfy your ears based on your budget. Heck, my entire analog system falls under $15,000.00 and I'm pretty sure that many analog lovers are on the same boat. In the end Daveyf, there is no right or wrong, just a matter of preference. I can honestly tell you that, to my ears, my current fully tweaked Rega/DV P-75/Delos driven by Rogue Audio sounds far more to my liking that my late Linn LP12/Lingo/Linto driven by Linn. The thread started with the following question "I was wondering if someone still uses this old designed turntables" Obviously the answer is "YES", many people still love this old design. But there is no doubt in my mind that many analog lovers (including me) would prefer to spend $2k-$4k on a newly designed TT instead. No hard feelings, just my opinion. |
Kiko65, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Where can you buy a SOTA TT that is a 'fraction' of the cost of the LP12 and that is better than the top grade LP12?....I don't know of any such TT. IMHO, the Rega's are not in the same league as a top flight LP12...ANY Rega. I recently 'AB'ed my LP12 Radikal against a friend's new Palmer, I can tell you the LP12 in my system was far more to my liking. Like I said before, YMMV. |
There are tables such as Clearaudio, Brinkmann and AMG that would get my money before a blown LP12 but that is just a personal preference. I own a Clearaudio and am equally impressed with the other German tables. If you go British and suspended, I prefer the AVIDs. Magazines in the UK during the 1980s were embarrassing in falling over themselves to anoint Rega and Linn as the only two worthy tables to the point that a lot of very good designs went away. Magazines are not as afraid to call out weakness of products today. More recent reviews of the LP12 seem to be polite rather than truly enthusiastic. Revered more as a surviving design that is respected but not truly representative the best that can be had from a modern turntable though certainly competitive as one flavor of high end. Linn did themselves a disservice by not bringing out a more modern turntable with a clean sheet design like their competitors. BTW the Linn Majik package is actually quite nice but it failed one of my critical tests. I have an LP that everyone of my 12 turntables can play. It has a small pressing defect that would always skip on my old LP12. I took it to my local Linn dealer and it skipped on the Majik but not on the fully blown LP12 . So I need to spend $20k on a Linn to play a record that my $350 Pro-Ject Debut can easily play. And BTW the Majik even had a Pro-ject arm. Sorry, just having a little fun but it was one of the things that bothered me about my Linn. It would not play certain records that my other tables would. That's not good enough in my book. Not for Rolex money for a base model. |
I guess we are both missing the point DaveyF. In many cases "BASIC TTs" don't require chasis/motor changes nor extremely expensive "upgrades" because they are simply good enough to compete with the best of the best. Your point, start with an entry level LP12 and build all the way up as funds allow by changing parts to optimize sound. We can both agree that this is a very expensive upgradeable path; from $4,200.00 to $20,000.00+ My point, start with something more substantial than an already quite expensive entry level turntable like the Majik LP12 and optimize sound by changing ancillary equipment such as tonearm, cart, external power supply, etc. Not many manufacturers offer an upgradeable path like Linn. However, they do offer different models with noticeable cost effective improvements moving up the line. Rega for example: Compare the entry level RP3 to the top of the line RP10. Similar in many ways but EVERY component is vastly improved moving up the line; upgraded plinth, sub-platter, platter, feet, pulley, belt, power supply, tonearm, etc. From $895.00 to $5,995.00 Don't get me wrong Daveyf, I have always praised the Sondek LP12 because it is a darn good turntable. Still considered one of the top turntables by many audiophiles. Ranked Stereophile Class A analog component. What I cannot do is justify spending $20,000.00+ on a Sondek LP12 when I could buy a state of the art turntable for a fraction of the cost. Anyway YMMV. |
Kiko65, I don't think any of the TT's you mention give one the option of starting with the cheaper basic design and then changing out parts to optimize the sound. Your example of the Rock 7 certainly doesn't! The Rock 7 has a fixed motor and chassis, no upgrade path there, power supply...what power supply?, support...is what you get and so on. The LP12 allows all of these options to be changed out ( and improved upon) as funds allow. To say one can change cartridge and arm and phono pre is missing the point. The BASIC TT remains the same in your example!!! Not so with the LP12! Anyway, YMMV. |
I have to disagree with you on this one Daveyf. Let's take the Rock 7 for example: The TT in itself is an engineering marvel of the modern audiophile world at an extremely affordable price ($3200.00). I don't own one so there is no bias here. That said, I am fortunate to be close friends with Larry Weinstein who owns Hollywood Sound (Hollywood, FL) where we spend coutless hours listening to different analog set-up configurations. Like the Sondek, the Rock 7 is a TT suspended by springs that incorporates a unique approach to arm-damping, involving viscous damping at the front end of the arm, right next to the cartridge, using a damping trough. The trough-damping gives a solidity to the sound that one seldom otherwise encounters in vinyl playback. Best part, the front-end damping can be added to any arm (the paddle is attached via the cartridge mounting screws, so any tonearm can be used on the Rock 7). The upgradealbe path? Tonearm of your liking, cartridge of your liking, power supply of your liking, phono pre of your liking, etc. Extremely finicky to set up properly. Once set up correctly (like the LP12) nothing short of sublime! By the way, the same upgradeable principle could be applied to some of the other tables I mentioned before. I can honestly tell you that, to my ears, no other table has sounded better than the Rock 7/Lyra Etna combo driven by top of the line Rogue Audio (HeraII/Apollo/Ares). I'm sure that the LP12 with a much better arm than the carbon cc9 (not a big fan of Pro-ject at all) and a better cart than the Adikt (entry level cart) will definitely compete with many other tables out there that share the same price tag. I'm just enjoying the simplicity and musicality of my set up and that's what this hobby should be all about; being happy with what you have and not worrying about what other people own. In the end there is no right or wrong, just a matter of preference DaveyF. Happy listening! |
Kiko65, I do have a passion for the LP12. Here's one of the reasons why...an upgrade path. Looking at your examples above, not one can be upgraded, except for the LP12!! While some may like the Classic 1 more than the Majik LP12, there is nowhere to go with the Classic 1 to upgrade- except onto A'gon, LOL. I don't know how old your and Banerjba's original LP12 was...but my first late 80's era model never went out of tune, that is once it was set up correctly. |
Daveyf, I really admire your passion for the LP12. That said, not every audiophile enthusiast has $20,000.00+ to spare on a fully upgraded Sondek. I have to agree with Banerjba; my early LP12 was notorious for going out of tune. Maybe the experts at Precision Audio didn't know how to set it up properly (I would like to think they did after spending all that money). The LP12 was a revelation in my early days! Ivor Tiefenbrun's philosophy made me a believer; the source being the most important component in the audio chain. The Sondek LP12 itself may well be the most significant turntable of all times. However, and IMHO, many other TT manufacturers have caught up with the Sondek's strengths for less money. Still a contender? Absolutely! The cream of the crop? Not in my book. Let's be honest, the $4,200.00 Sondek Majik LP12 now has to compete with the likes of Townshend Rock 7 ($3,500.00), Well Tempered Amadeus ($2,800.00), Acoustic Signature Wow XL ($2,300.00 w/out arm), Clearaudio Performance ($3,000.00), VPI Classic 1 ($3,000.00), just to name a few. A fully upgraded LP12 may be in another league, but an entry level or outdated LP12 face many outstanding competitors. Just my honest opinion. |
DaveyF. Early Linns were notiorious for going out of tune, not only in the UK but also here in Canada. Remember the basic design was not terribly well built. Lightweight wooden frame. Not terribly well braced. The Axis was a clean sheet design and for my all Linn system sounded tidier and cleaner. The LP12 was better in terms of resolution and ofcourse had a wider soundstage. But I have owned a lot of tables from Rega, Clearaudio, Pro-Ject, Technics, Thorens, Revolver and others so I know what kind of sound I like. I had my LP12 for 17 years. I left the Linn school and prefer my subsequent B&W, McIntosh and Clearaudio set up. As others bring up, a blown LP12 is a different animal that old 1989 vintage Lp12 I owned. I enjoyed mine but there are other excellent tables now as well. It's pretty hard to lose with an LP12. If you like it, you have a table for life. If you don't, you can easily sell it. |
Banerjba, your comment that a LP12 can sound good or bad; Bad ones, even after being set up properly go off after a year or so, makes absolutely no sense! What would make a good LP12 vs a Bad LP12? I guess I own a "good" LP12, as my TT does NOT go "off" after a year or so, LOL. Plus,IMHO, anyone that owned an LP12 and thought it was NOT better than an Axis was either a) hearing a VERY poorly set up LP12 or b) hearing other distortions up the line that were hiding the LP12's ability and playing to the Axis's distortions or c) both. Again IMHO, whenever I have heard an Axis and compared it to even an entry level LP12, the SQ increase with the LP12 was easy to hear! |
"I had Axis and LP12 Valhalla and actually preferred the cheaper table. It was tidier cleaner and had less wooly bass, something the higher Linns also do better. I also liked the Linn Basik" Agree about the Axis v. Valhalla. I preferred the Rega Planar 3 over the Basik. I eventually bought a Planar 3 and kept that for I think 7 years. Sold it and bought an LP 12 with the Basik power supply. I was somewhat disappointed as in my system (at the time) the LP12 Basik was not a whole lot different from the Planar 3 (I was using a Rega arm on the LP12). Within 2 years I had a Lingo installed and was really surprised how much of an improvement that was. That set me down the course towards upping my LP12 game. Eventually added an Ekos with a Troika. I know the Troika has a glowing reputation, but I just didn't care for it. Sold that (at almost 2x what I paid!) and bought a demo Arkiv B which I continue to enjoy. Right now, the oldest piece of gear in my system is my LP12 at 16 years young! The Lingo is 14 years old. My LP12 has never given me a lick of trouble. In these intervening years I've had CD players, tuners, amps, preamps, and a DAC repaired. But never the Lp12 (or my speakers-also 14 years old). |
Linn has been a reference standard for years. Not that it is the best but most serious vinyl enthusiasts have heard one and can benchmark other tables against it. I had Axis and LP12 Valhalla and actually preferred the cheaper table. It was tidier cleaner and had less wooly bass, something the higher Linns also do better. I also liked the Linn Basik which was a great budget table. LP12 can be be good or bad. Bad ones, even after being set up properly go off after a year or so. Mine was like that. I now use a Clearaudio. That said, a well set up Linn Lp12 sounds great. Buy a nice used one. If you like it great. If not you can sell it at little to no loss. |
I've owned my 25 year anniversary LP12 for almost 17 years. Originally it had the shoe box Lingo power supply, Cirkus bearing, and Ekos arm. Two years ago I upgraded it to the Radikal power supply, Ekos SE arm, Keel sub chassis and Akiva MC cartridge (Kandid wasn't out yet). Expensive, yes, but I'm extremely happy with the improved sound. Most that say the LP12 is dated haven't heard a fully updated one with the Radikal power supply, updated chassis and arm. |
Glad you are enjoying your upgraded LP12 Daveyf. I'm pretty sure that the improvements are not subtle. As I said, nothig wrong with the Sondek just extremely expensive IMHO and, like any other suspended TT, finicky and sensitive as descibed by Suteetat. I prefer the simplicity of the RP10 for a fraction of the cost. Again, just a matter of preference. |
Suteetat,your observation about the looks of the LP12 is interesting. In some ways I have to agree, although the looks of any TT is highly subjective, IMHO. Some people would say the new VPI Classic Direct doesn't look like it should cost anywhere near $30K.Others would say the Continuum Caliburn looks like a million $$$ ...hmmm don't want to give them any ideas, LOL. |
Properly setting up, Linn certainly can keep up with the current competition in its price range, I think. However, setup is really important and it is much more finicky and sensitive than VPI or TW Acoustic that I own. However, I have a good friend who is love Linn and tweak it to death. He also helped set up several Linns in my other friends' systems and they all sound great. Certainly have no problem playing hard rock, pop, orchestral, vocal or pretty much any kind of music you throw at it. I rather like it, not well enough to replace my TW or VPI DD but certainly I don't think it is an underacheiver in its price range. The biggest weakness it has is that it does not look like it should cost this much. I am not sure if there is any other turntable above $10,000 that look cheaper than Linn. |
Kiko65, the words "fuzzy to set up and maintain" would indicate to me that your LP12 was never properly set up in the first place. I have said before, and contrary to popular myth, the LP12 is NOT prone to drift out of set up and is actually pretty easy to maintain. That is assuming the set up is done right the first time. I also think that one needs to adjust the set up on ANY table every time you change cartridge. The tonearm parameters will always need to be adjusted and the TT checked. As to outdated technology, well one could say that about all TT's too! I don't happen to think that a DC motor control/drive and a belt drive are 'outdated'- I guess YMMV. |
Owned one for many years, great table in its own way. Sondek LP12/Ekos/Lingo/Linto/Akiva. Fuzzy to set up and maintain. Overall great sound but falling behind with outdated technology and steep price. Got tired of adjusting the springs every time I swapped carts. My personal opinion and not trying to persuade others otherwise. |
Zavato, I did the motor and sub chassis at the same time. Therefore, I cannot say which made the biggest diff...although I'm pretty sure it was the Radikal D. The sub chassis is nonetheless a great option to my old 80's sub chassis. Chayro, cannot tell you exactly how much....BUT it wasn't cheap, although like everything in this crazy hobby, i guess it's all relative! The SQ has truly leapt to another plane...amazingly so! |
I thought I would 'bump' this thread. I upgraded my LP12 with a new Radikal D and Kore Subchassis along with the new Cirkus bearing/ springs and grommets. The improvements in SQ are NOT small. The jump in resolution, freq extension at both ends of the spectrum, inner groove silence and overall ease of presentation is easily heard. I do believe that the current LP12 with Radikal D is still at the forefront of LP reproduction. |
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I've enjoyed my LP12 now for 15 years. It's fitted with a Lingo, Ekos, Arkiv B. not the latest specs but that's ok, cause it makes music. I've had it tuned up 2x since buying it. I dont know that DD is all the rage, as still, most tables seem to be belt driven. If something works for me I tend to keep it a long time. A number of pieces in my system are 10 years or more old. Ok, not SOTA, but not the investment of a decent car either. |
I really enjoy my LP12. It took a while for me to take the plunge and spend $600 on an Origin Live DC motor upgrade. That upgrade made a considerable difference. It was an immediate "Why did I ever wait sooo long to do this?" I have never heard the Lingo so I can't make a comparison, but the Origin Live is worth every cent. I believe the upgrade is now less expensive. |
Any turntable that has so many upgrade kits must be exceedingly popular or why try to cash in? Among the countless "upgrades" here is the Ultimate LP12 Tuning |
Let's face it. Any turntable that has so many upgrade kits must be exceedingly popular or why try to cash in? There are a lot of urban myths about the LP12. One is that it needs constant tweaking and regular maintenance. Sure, anytime you return to the dealer for the latest sub-chassis, he will automatically throw away the old springs and drive belt as a matter of procedure but that doesn't mean they're worn out. When I finally sold my LP12 it had been nearly 18 years since the last service/upgrade but it didn't miss a beat(in its entire lifetime). The springs had settled just a whisker but the chassis was still level and the "bounce" was still correct. At more than quarter of a century old it then started its new life in someone else's service....and without even having to re-lube the bearing. The Linn is a music making machine that defies any attempt to quantify it. In an idealist's eyes it may not be perfect but you will neither care nor notice after the music starts. For many it can be highly addictive. Any turntable that makes you want to play music endlessly must be doing something right. |
If you can get it setup properly by an experienced tech, they are the best value out there. That's a big if though. I tried setting mine up for years and never was happy but when Brooks Berdan (sadly deceased) finally went through it for me, I was blown away by the difference. When Brooks passed away, I sold my LP12. I'm happy with my Well Tempered Simplex, which I finally settled on after demoing a lot of table. There are things my LP12 did well that even $5k turntable arm combos couldn't do. I miss it. |
Low, Maybe. Would not surprise me. Axis is easier to setup which would appeal to more people than LP 12, which is more for the enthusiast. Proper setup is 80% or more of the game when it comes to good vinyl sound. In hindsight, if I were Linn I would have kept both to keep market share, but back then most people were dumping tables for CDs for better or for worse, and Linn seemed more interested in going "high end" for higher profit margins. Maybe the Axis should be resurrected to help Linn plug into the relative vinyl renaissance these days compared to the 80s when vinyl was dying? Axis may be the best audio investment I ever made. I bought it when I saw vinyl was dying (and turntables becoming rarer and prices skyrocketing accordingly) so as not to have to replace all my records with CDs and its still going strong with never a down day (knock on wood...). Has saved me a lot of money and enabled me to broaden my library by not having to rebuy old stuff I already had on vinyl (which sounded great already) and focus more on adding new stuff both on vinyl or CD/digital as I please. Having said all that, when my Axis dies someday, I will have to replace it, and would have no qualms replacing it with another newer Linn, maybe even a newer Axis if the price is right. Ive finally got the current phono system (Axis, Basik tonearm , Denon DL103R cart, step up and phono pre-amps) dialed in just right. It took a lot of time and effort to get it that way and any change is likely to upset the apple cart, FBOFW. For those more open to change in this area and willing to pay, there are many choices out there nowadays besides Linn, though that is certainly an old familiar favorite for many, and with turntables especially, familiarity matters because there is so much that can go into getting any good phono system (which is a lot more than just the turntable) working just right, even if its the best table since sliced bread on paper. |