Norman, the more your dealer touched your 'table, the worse it sounded. Thousands of people with a different dealer have loved the upgrades. Further proof he doesn't know much about it. I really don't care what anyone thinks of the LP12, but misinformation is not helpful. BTW, I do not use an LP12 as my main deck. |
Yeah! 60ies Jazz is the genre, that the LP12 works best with, indeed.
best regards, Hartmut |
|
Well, I just spent the last 8 hours spending time in a jazz club in San Fransico, then over to Symphony Hall in Chicago, to another jazz club in New York, another symphony in Boston, then over to London, then Venice, and back over to Copenhagen for some more jazz. Literally around the world in just over 8 hours time thanks to my Linn LP12, Naim ARO, Wood bodied Benz, and Pink Link DC Battery Power Supply.
Is it competitive or better than the modern super tables of today? I don't know. What I do know is that during this last 8 strait hours of listening, I didn't once think about what a new table would sound like. I was immersed in the music, the tone and timbre of the instruments, and felt like I was in the concert halls of the symphonies being played and that many times the likes of Ben Webster, Clark Terry, or Dizzy or Ray Brown and countless other jazz greats were in my listening room performing just for me!
So, those are the good points about the Linn. The cons are that either you need to learn how to set up the Linn correctly (which isn't hard, it just takes patience and gets easier with practice) or you need to know someone that can do it for you. I don't mind doing it. It's part of the hobby, the nostalgia of playing vinyl, if you will. Also, it is a misnomer that you constantly have to keep fiddling with the deck. That is simply untrue, unless you keep moving it from house to house.
I think that there are probably a great number of decks out there that can make music. You simply have to go out and listen to as many as you can and then one will "strike a chord" with you and then you'll know. |
The difference between suspended and non-suspended seems to me like it would be a huge point of difference, but I don't hear people talking about it that much. Do most of you clearly favor one approach over the other? |
Personally, I could never get past the looks of the Linn. It just isn't sexy looking to me. To hear that they are in the $10k range now is amazing to me. I could never bring myself to spend that on a Linn. I'm all about sound but looks count too in that price range.
My audiophile buddies and I had Sotas and VPI. In the mid-90's we definately liked the sound of our Sotas better than the Linn. But others loyally defended their Linns'. They always talk about how their Linn has so much better rythm and pace than the Sota. I have never heard that difference and to this day do not understand that comment. If the table wow and flutter is below measurable limits- how does it sound different?
I still prefer the suspended table (Sota) sound over the fixed mass (VPI) myself. My VPI buddy like his TT but would admit the Sota sounded good to him too.
It comes down to what each of us likes and how willing we are to part with our hard earned cash for something intangible to normal, everyday people. |
I am at an age that I regulary must ask: What is the
question?
I assume that the most members are much younger but I
suggest that thy should also ask this question.
The question as stated presupposes some acquaitance or
expirienece with both: Linn-LP12 and other,'newer', hi-
tech turntables. If one dont fulfifils both 'conditions'
how is then an answer possible?
I am perplexed to read about: (sport) car comparitions,
love and hate declarations,the questions about my lenght,
the question if I own the 'lexicon of the English
language,etc.etc.
So what we are talking about?
' |
"that a cheap used LP12 bought from the usual s/h marketplaces is quite OK"
I'd go even further and say a used Axis is quite OK also. Use a good matching cartridge though. Denon DL103R on teh Linn Basik tonearm with a good phono pre-amp (and step-up device if needed, see my system for example) sounds as good as anything I have heard recently to me.
I would rather spend my time listening to music than re-configuring turntables, so if I had to replace my Axis, I would do it with something similar that I can live with without regret without having to perform major surgery on it. |
Aguadiem, don't do Circus, until you are prepared to have the sound character of the LP12 vitally changed. I second Normansizemore's opinion, that a cheap used LP12 bought from the usual s/h marketplaces is quite OK, but don't touch it, or you get a result you don't like, and the price/performance ratio changes to the worse. I think 1000 USD could buy you a good condition 80ies LP12 with tonearm.
I owned several LP12 over a twenty yr. period, and finally decided against them. If you are interested in a really negative view about the LP12, have a look at my write up here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/linn_lp12_e.html
best regards, Hartmut |
Drubin, The reason that your Linn sounds pretty good is that you have left is alone. Unlike the rest of us with Linn horror stories, the original unit is a pretty nice musical player. Upgrade it and it goes down hill from their. Trust me... I know. |
Aguadiem, See Jazzdoc's post way above. If you are really planning on spending all that money to upgrade your Linn, you might want to consider another table entirely, like a Galibier et al. Otherwise, your system is very nice; go for it. |
First of all, I am certainly not an audiophile and I just bought my first Linn LP12 this evening off of e-bay. I looked at (listened to) Oracle, Rega, VPI and Thorens TTs but I chose to buy a 69,XXX serial number Linn because I liked the sound of a friend's unit when hooked-up to my amp and speakers. No, he wouldn't let me touch it or take it home. I had to take my gear to my friend's place. Anyway, for my 2 cents, it was not how modern the technology was but how I felt emotionally from what I heard. BTW my amp is only a Sugden A48 Mk III and my speakers are Spica TC50s. Some if not most would say hardly audiophile grade. Once the unit arrives, I plan on upgrading the power supply, bearing, Cirkus upgrade, new springs, the keel upgrade, a polycarbonate sound base, and if luck prevails install an Ekos SE tonearm. At roughly that point, it will be a little better than my friend's unit (he has not installed the keel yet but is planning to do so and has the Ekos 2 Tonearm). Incidentally, my old TT was a Dual 1225 with a Shure M75ED Type 2 cartridge so all of the forementioned units I tried were an improvment to say the least. The Linn was just more pleasing to me. I only hope it sounds as good in my house as my friends did in his house! |
I suspect the answer to the poster's question simply depends on ones point of view more than anything else. |
Dazzdax, the logic of your statement is (as your jokes)
an enigma to me.If I understand your statement correctly
then your claim is:'the many upgrades of Linn intendend the same sound'.
The logic presupposes,if you mean 'the same' in logical
sense, that we can't make eny sense from 'upgrades'.
I must refer once more to Raul: 'If the design is sound
then why so many upgrades?'
I made some effort to elaborate on this 'proposition'
but,obviously,without eny result.
Cheers |
My LP-12 is late-80's vintage, Ittok LVii, no Lingo or other updates. Sounds pretty good. Could I replace it with something like a Rega P5 or P7 or a KAB-modded Technics and be happy, do you think? |
The updates,the platter.' but' the bearing.
In my updates I stated the presupposition that the
platter of Linn is well designed and made so no updates
by this 'part'.But if Lurne is right about the inclusion
of the bearing in the 'disign concept' then the bearing
of Linn can't be optimal (i.e. not inverted ).
There is a firm legitimacy in our forum for both:
'subjective' and 'objective' approach to our hobby.
But I think that 'mechanical matter' can't be 'subjective'.
So I expressed my hope that physicist in our forum will
explain this issue.
Cheers |
Chayro,
Your absolutely correct. The XKE was not reliable. My error of enthusiasm posting the concept. |
Not to hijack the thread, but I've never heard "XKE" and "reliability" used in the same sentence. |
an analogy,
compare the wonderful 1967 Jaguar XKE with a modern equivalent sports car. The modern sports car will crush the XKE in all areas except nostalgia, price, and reliability. |
After many upgrades a Linn will still sound like... a Linn. The manufacturer has a particular "sound" in mind, so that is the sound you are hearing. If a particular upgrade would destroy this sound characteristic, many Linn followers would be very disappointed (because they like this familiar Linn sound and they won't be departed from it).
Chris |
Terra3: Because I'm in a virtually identical situation (i.e. an LP12 of very similar vintage to yours) and considering a couple of Stamford UK upgrades (the Hercules board & the carbon fiber sub-frame), how would you compare your satisfaction and sound of your new VPI with your old Linn? |
I'd say yes as it relates to quality of sound (and without getting too verbose, an acknowledgment that tables simply produce a different type of sound), but at a price that isn't competitive.
I have currently been considering this very thought. I have an old LP12 c. 1977. Very few upgrades; and of those, small maintenance rather than feature/system upgrades. Was considering a considerable upgrade to the table, purchase of a more recent used LP12 that includes upgrades or switch to another TT. End result was a switch to a new VPI. While liking the Linn sound - and understanding that my vintage had the rather warm mid/low end that could be somewhat 'bloated' or ill-defined as compared to newer versions, I felt that it was time to cast off the periodic fiddling with the TT and the (at times) shocking costs of upgrades. And indeed, with recollections by many on this and other forums, it appears the degree of 'fiddling' over time varies widely within the same model; something of a consideration on it's own. The question then is why bother when there are alternatives. The answer to that is simply personal preferences. And that it that. Those alternatives certainly don't produce a sound of any less quality than a Linn, but rather a different type of sound from each other.
Perhaps the closes I've heard to a Linn sound was a P9. But then I haven't really listened to very many TT's. |
The updates.
I am ,qua outlook, on the side of Schipo but fot the
context I must refer to Raul:'If the design is sound
then why so many updates?'
Rauls context was 'tonearms' and I presupose that he
meant Graham (?).
I mentioned my Audiomeca J1 but not the designer.
Pierre Lurne is an physicist and designed first for
Goldmund (TT, linear tonarm F3,etc) and then for hes
own Audiomeca ( J1,J4,Romeo and last Belladonna).
Lurne has 'strong opinions' about the TT,tonearm,etc
design and emphasise that thy are based on physics.
Acc. to Lurne the platter is the most important part of
an TT,with the bearing as 'included' in the design-
'philosophy'. The most 'correct design' is the inverted
bearing with the 'centre of gravity' in the platter.
This 'centre' is only 'nearly accessible '(see Googel:
Pierre Lurne).
The platter of my Audiomeca (8kgr.) was balanced to an
accuracy of less then 0.5 gr.(BTW I have never seen an
update for Lurnes TT).
If this statements are sound (I am not an Physicist)
then,it seems to me, the design of Linn makes also
some sence.I can't recoll that Linn ever 'modified' or
'updated' the platter. So I think that the 'mystery' of
Linn must be the platter. That is of course an conjecture.
I am sure that there are graduate physicist in our forum
and hope thy will expplain the issue more eloquent.
Cheers
but wel |
NO, I don't think so either. It doesn't mean it can't make music, but then a lot of things can that are less expensive. |
Chayro,
The fact that the Linn has been a highly regarded standard fore so long is in itself a valuable reason to own one before owning something else, as you point out.
I've never owned an LP12 but the Axis is as easy to set up and requires as little maintenance as any table I've owned. The only difficulty perhaps is that there is not a removable headshell to make mounting cartridges easier, but it is still not a problem. I've run my Linn Axis without issue for over 20 years now, including record cleaning on the table running, and it even still has the original belts and sounds better than ever with my latest associated gear. |
For myself, when I got back into analog, I just felt that I wanted to own a Linn at some point in my audiophile life, just to see what all this talk was about. I thought that there must be something there to have a tt with such loyalty, not to mention the longevity of the product - it's not something you have to replace in 5 years, unless you want to.
I was a bit afraid at first, thinking that they needed constant tweaking if you looked at them the wrong way, but I was mistaken. Once properly set up in your home, as Linn dealers are required to do, they will go for several years without adjustment. Of course, if you're the "nervous type", constantly agonizing over whether your system is in tune, you might be better of with a Rega or something that can't be adjusted.
The last thing is the looks - Personally, I prefer record players that look like record players. That's just my taste. So the Linn fits me well in that regard.
Sonically, I think it's great. There are probably much better and much worse, but now I've owned a Linn as I had planned and I know what it's about. I'm sure there's better and I know there's worse. It's not a religion, it's a record player.
As to it being an old design - well, I don't mean to be crude, but pu**y's an old design too, and that's doing OK as far as I can see. |
I've heard some Linns and they are a fine turntable. But I just cannot let the statement they they are good value second hand pass. $1,500 for a vintage Linn: are you seriously saying that is better value than a Micro Seiki BL91 for example? They go for about $1,000 and are a great TT.
I'm never going to say Linns aren't very good turntables, but I think they are overpriced, both new and second hand. I just cannot see the value at the prices they go for.
DS |
It seems that the Linns are just not cool or trendy anymore.
Since I put the Denon 103R cartridge on mine (Linn Axis actually) though, it sounds better than ever to me and I have not felt a need to change when I listen to other newer tables on other high end systems at dealers so far.
SO for me, I have to say that the lesser Axis is competitive so I would expect the LP-12 to be so as well.
I've also been a big Thorens fan also and would go to a good Thorens as well in a heartbeat if I had to.
Also, if cost is the indicator, it seems the very best these days cost 10X as much as the Linn or more, so is it even a fair comparison? |
Mosin, I am not sure about your intentions but I fear
the worst. It is a very naive presupposition that a
'lexicon' is a kind of authority in linguistic matter.
I am more familiar with linguistic theorys then analog
tools (logical: Frege,Wittgenstein,Tarsky,Quine,etc;
lingu.:Chomsky,Katz,Lakoff,etc).
Audiogon-forum is a international 'institution' so you
can't expect that everyone is fluently in English.
The most I have learned from this forum is from Raul and
even I can 'discover' grammatical errors in his text.
BTW Do you realy think that Einstein,Godel,Tarsky,Carnap,
etc. speak fluently English?
If so then I have pity with you.
Cheers |
Nandric,
May I use that word, tragicomical? That's a really good word that should be officially allowed into the English lexicon, don't you think? ;) |
Nandric, it was tongue in cheek regarding Harry (Pearson). You mentioned the fact that you have been kneeling in front of the LP-12 so often you developed a hernia. Well Harry is in fact quite a tall person, but as a joke I called him "small" (I meant in fact "short" in stature) so you need to kneel down when talking to him. Do you get the joke now? Btw (disclaimer), this has nothing to do with the LP-12!
Chris |
Dazzdax, the phrases,the jokes and 'amissinterpretation'.
I think that the first precondition for the 'honest
laughter' is the ability to laugh about ourselfs.
I even think that this has something to do with empahty.
There is a famous and hilarius phrase from UK:
'Dont mention the war!' (to the German tourist).
My empahty is the reason that I avoided to MENTION
the tonearm base-plate ,the (3) amazing screws (II war stock?) and the so-called 'theory behind' the 'construction'
But every time (as I reccol) that I approched the arm-
lift my heart sank so I got the arythmia added to my
hernia.
Everything I have desribed is my own experience.I.e I sayd
nothing about 'the other' So am I allowed to do so?
BTW your joke(?) about (hi-fi Pope) Pearson is 'above'
my English and my comprehension. Sorry.
Cheers |
That said, I believe that a used, recent vintage LP12 is a tremendous value. Yes, you are right, but I think it depends on the view. For example: I'LL go out and screw 4 little pieces of wood to a box. Price about 10$. Then I paint it, look for some NASA (or whatever) stories, go out and offer it for 1000$.... After finding endless fans who think that is a really top product some will sell it because they want something different, the price will drop a little bit, let's say: 50%less and everyone says "Wow, super, I go for it, it is so cheap now" That's business :) |
Perhaps I can offer a slightly different perspective because to my thinking, it all depends if you want a new or used LP12.
As to my background and experience, I am a former (20 year+) owner of a Linn Sondek. Over the years, I dutifully did all of the upgrades and I thoroughly enjoyed the LP12. It's sins are primarily those of omission and the well-documented frequency anomalies never bothered me. However, when it came time for the Keel upgrade, the price gave me pause. After a long search, I sold the Linn and bought a Galibier table.
That said, I believe that a used, recent vintage LP12 is a tremendous value. For example, there is one currently on sale on Audiogon for $1500. Given the huge installed base of Sondek's, I believe the vast majority of users purchase their Linn's used and conversations with my local dealer would seem to support this hypothesis. Additionally, there are many (relatively) inexpensive upgrades to the motor, suspension, arm and cartridge that can significantly improve the sound. In this price range, the LP12 is tough to beat for pure musical enjoyment and if properly cared for, it will last forever. I have no hesitation recommending a used LP12 to anyone looking in this price range.
However...a new fully loaded LP12 with top of the line Linn arm and cartridge is now a greater than $10k investment and there is certainly stiff competition in this price range. If someone is contemplating purchasing a new Linn, I would at least advise them to audition some of the competition.
Hope this helps.
Regards |
I owned a couple of Linns about 15 yrs apart and have had a host of others AR, Thorens, VPI, Oracle, Technics, etc (current is cosmos IV) The one I miss the least is the Linn I never thought it was anything more than a basically competent design that was bested by almost everything else Ive tried. |
Nandric, I didn't know H. Pearson was that small, you have to kneel in front of him when talking to him :)
I didn't know either the LP-12 was so difficult to set up :)
Everything will be OK when Linn introduces the LP-12.5 SE :)
Chris |
Dazzdax ,I deed not use the phrase 'Linn sucks' but I will
elaborate my phrase 'tragicomical question'.
I think that the design philosophy of this TT has a solid
basis in the psychology.
1. The premise: There are unbelievable many masogist on the
earth,particulary in the UK.
So they designed this springsystem. I got 17 X hernia
trying to adjust them from beneath but the bell refused
to ring.Possible because I am atheist but still have some
'inexplicable need' to kneel for something or someone
(H.Pearson?)
But sometimes one sees the light and in my case it was
the Audiomeca J1.
Cheers
Nandric |
I guess it boils down to if one likes the sound of an LP12 or not. |
Schipo, just listen to yourself. You talk about marching backwards in the 21st century when you were told sometime ago that analog (turntable) was old outdated technology.
Digital is the way to go, the latest technology!!yet you are embracing that very technology which is supposed to be old an outdated. So, who's maching backward in the 21st century?
Make-up your mind as to where you want to be.
Finally, your argument is suppose to be about being competitive, not about where you are in space and time.
So, one more time(obviously there's a learning curve problem)
Competitively speaking, if you are in business to be successful and make money and you are making millions of dollars selling your product, why would you change what your're doing? !! Would you change because somebody thinks you should use newer technology or would you let the market dictate that?
Again, Linn a company that's been in business 35 plus years and sucessful at what they do obviously knows what they're doing. They don't need you to tell them when they should make a change.
By the way, how long have you been in business? |
Nandric: I wouldn't say that Linn LP-12 sucks because it doesn't. Some people are probably so proud to be a Linn owner that they tend to overrate the product --> that's a fact. It is the same as with Naim. Those brands are for people with a bit of acquired taste but that doesn't mean that they don't make good products.
* It appears to me though that many Linn and Naim owners are often easily offended and they tend to become "defensive" in their argumentation with regard to their "brands".
Chris |
Schlipo
I am an englishman too And as an ex linnie I can honestly say that I feel the Linn has had its day amongst serious audiophiles.
The Linn marketing machine marches to its own tune here in the UK and its dealers are not allowed nor equipped to demonstrate the superiority of other designs,Sadly a good 70% of UK dealers are Linn/Naim dealers even to this day,the unsurspecting punter walks in and gets sold the same old philosophy as thirty years ago and walk out of the dealers having been convinced that what they have bought is the best that money can buy!
The prices for silly small percentage/performance upgrades are absolutely rediculous in real engineering terms.
I just hope that many of todays users will see the light just as I have |
Martin Colloms is an Englishmen. Would you even think of him using anything but a Linn? I am sure if he changed camps, his readership would stone him to death with their Linn's. |
I regard the question as 'tragicomical' and fear that
one honest answer will be painful for so many owners.
I myself never got the damn springs ok. So when I
acquired Audiomeca J1 it was some kind of liberation.
That even better is possible I discovered with Kuzma
Stabi Ref.
Cheers,
Nandric |
I found all those Linn upgrades to be stressing. Kind of like putting disc brakes on my old GTO and then wondering if I also need to make them power brakes or buy radial tires. I bought a Scoutmaster and a very good cartridge. An upgrade is now a better table or a better cartridge. Less stress, no more bouncing, and I know my setup sounds as good as it possibly can. |
The Linn is competitive with the Rega and all the Rega clones out there. God knows there are enough of those, but competitive with the very best? That wasn't really a serious question was it? |
I would say that Linn is no longer competitive with some of the top contenders out there. |
A previous poster chose to use the example of atomic force microscopy to illustrate the alleged inanity of my comment about measuring thrust plate flatness with light.
The cantilever deflection in atomic force microscopy is most widely measured with optical methods, either with an interferometer or the beam-bounce method. With beam bounce, an optical beam is reflected from the back side of the cantilever to a position-sensitive photodetector. |
So, all or most are ignoring the superior design's from such as Goldmund, VPI and Teres turntables and just going with they Linn sell many a turntable so they must be doing something right. Well if the design was just what your claiming, why look anywhere in the way of new modern materials such as metacrylic or by using better manufacturing techniques with new bonding methods, just Linn does it right. Now lets just forget where all in the 21st century and instead time marches backwards. |
Schipo, to answer your question about if it ain't broke don't fix it, its real simple. Linn has been selling thousands of turntables a year for over 30 yrs. using the same "obselete" design so obviously its competitive! Again, if it were not I'm fairly sure they would have changed. As mentioned above they've been in business for over 35 yrs. so I think they have a little understanding about how to sell good turntables. You don't stay in business that long selling inferior and obsolete products! So again, I say if it ain't broke don't fix it!
Also, if you can tell me how many more turntables Vpi and rega sold than linn, then maybe I'll consider your competive argument. But I doubt that will happen. |
I am not a Linnie as I did not buy one until this fall for a back up table. There are a number of people, such as Martin Colloms, who have heard most things and have top systems who still use the Linn so it must be competitive. As noted, the outside appearance has changed but the inside is very different. I'll bet some of those telling you how obsolete it is are using tube amps with circuits straight from the 50s. |
