Aguadiem, I hope I caught you in time(before upgrades). I believe that the radikal(or something) should be bought before the keel or ekos SE. You should look into it further. BTW, I believe the general perception in the UK is much different than the one here about the Linn. |
Syntax, so you have heard the new Radikal power supply with the Keel and Ekos SE?
BTW, I never remember the 'fully loaded' tables being 'very cheap' BUT I guess that is a relevant term!
Not being a dealer, you do have an impressive collection of gear....almost like you have one of everything..:0) |
I'm a fan of the LP12 and considering my first audition was back in the late 70's... good show !!!!
That aside, i have never compared the sound of an LP12 to current modern SOTA stuff , but i would not expect to hear bad sound from an LP12 unless it was very poorly setup and i have heard bad sound from some of these modern setups.
regards, |
Syntax,
With your gear, the Linn being its equal is like saying Johnny Unitas is Peyton Manning's equal.
Unitas was pretty good in his day and few would find fault with him nonetheless despite it being difficult to argue that he was the equal of today's "SOTA".
I would still like to pay him the salary he earned and have him in his prime on my team today though. I might even chose that over paying Peyton what he is worth in comparison. |
Daveyf, yes I listened to all of them, the LP12 with Keel, Ekos SE etc. compared in the same System to another full loaded LP12, I was in so many Linn Demos that I would like to have some money for visiting them in future.
Lots of years ago I was interested in one of those, because full loaded ones were very cheap 2. hand, I compared them in Dealer shops among themselves and after a while I knew the reason.
I am not a Dealer. Just a regular customer. |
Daveyf, you are correct, and you can listen to the differences without seeing a dealer. I believe it's on the Linn forum(you might have to search elsewhere on the Internet.). The main reason(if you can believe it) I got the Linn was to eliminate too many variables. I'm getting older, and didn't want to mess with too many things. They are still in business, with a lot of feedback about the table. The Oracle was a downgrade(in my mind)from version I to II. The SOTA was uninvolving. My Ariston was not supported(BTW my tweakings had me interested in a wobbly motor, which only Roksan has taken up.). A few of those companies went out of business for at least a while. |
Syntax, have you heard the latest itineration of the LP12/ Radikal?
If not, then maybe you are jumping to conclusions, no?
BTW, are you a dealer? |
What I like most about these LP12 'SOTA' guys, they really believe what they talk. And when I listen to their Systems it is so far away from SOTA that I really always ask myself, hey, is it really so difficult to l-i-s-t-e-n ?
The answer is: yes |
Sell your table. Buy a VPI Classic. |
Drubin's question is to the point, what could I replace an LP12 with and still be happy. I bought my present LP12 (replacing one I had purchased in 1985) in 1993 with just the basik power supply and LVIII arm. Nothing VPI sells could make me happy (not that they're bad; just a different set of sonic attributes that don't appeal to me as much). A Rega P5 doesn't measure up, but a P9 does. I could be very happy with a Rokson Xerxes.
During President Bush's plea for stimulus spending, and spurred on by Art Dudley's review, I bought a Well Tempered Record Player from Stanalog. Sonically, it was in some ways better than my LP12 (and an outstanding platform for Grado cartridges), but after two years I sold it, finding the operational ease of the Linn more to my liking (cueing lever, hinged dustcover you don't need to remove before play, no azimuth adjustment to fiddle with, easier and more repeatable ability to set tracking force and other tonearm settings), or maybe that was just 25 years of use and familiarity winning out.
Another nice thing about the LP12 is that it's still supported. Mine has in excess of 17,000 hours of play on it, and no matter how well machined the bearing, it's still subject to wear. For a modest price, the Cirkus kit basically makes my old turntable like new mechanically (the LVIII arm still tests out fine); add the recent Majik power supply (supposed to be better than the Valhalla, let alone my Basik) and new motor, and I'm likely good for another 17-20 years. |
The LP12 can be upgraded all the way to what many, including myself, consider is still SOTA.
A Radikal/ Trampolin v2/Cirkus/LP12 is the current itineration. I wander how close in sound this is to the typical LP12( of older vintage) that most of the posters are referring to and which I suspect is what their experience lies with.
IMHO, If you haven't heard the latest itineration, then you probably aren't qualified to give an opinion as to the how competitive the LP12 is against the current competition. |
All tables 'Give Up' something in the Sound Spectrum........Many are still, after all the years, satisfied at what the Linn does, and does not do, for that matter. It is still very SYSTEM dependent; albeit given the right scenario, with the right associated components, a Proven Winner!!!!!!! That's what they see in LINN, and what LINN represents. |
"It is very satisfying for a large number of listeners."
Would we even be having this discussion about a product that debuted so long ago if this were not the case?
Longevity is one of the best indicators of utility..... |
Great post, Kirkus. I also agree with Stanwal. It is very satisfying for a large number of listeners. |
I'm the hundredth poster, Do I get a prize? Let me sum this up, the Linn still makes music and can make you happy. I finally bought one this fall because I found one that had been for sale for years in great condition with a Grace 707 and F9E for $400. Does it sound as good as the Scoutmaster I have set up? Probably not, but how could you tell, different arms and cartridges. I sure hope that the new Aries I have coming with 12.7 arm and most of the goodies sounds considerably better but I don't think that the Linn will be totally embarrassed by it. The Linn is still a good table that can work in a top system, Martin Colloms still uses one and so do many others. |
Ok but what about the original question , Thorens 124 or Linn 12??? The LP-12 and the TD-124 are both supremely well-executed examples of completely different approaches to building a turntable . . . the comparison is like Porsche vs. Ferrari . . . a practically unanswerable question. Edgar Villchur's original AR turntable was designed to address many of the specific problems of mid-20th-century idler-drive turntables (rumble, motor noise, and acoustic feedback), and it did so very successfully. The LP-12 is based on the AR design . . . and one thing it's hard to fault Ivor Tiefenbrun for is his persistent, dogged determination to improve it, little by little, year after year. And just like the Porsche 911, the people that never liked it . . . still don't like it. Tiefenbrun himself is also a polarizing personality, and many people don't like him . . . and dislike the LP-12 out of proxy. The TD-124, on the other hand, exudes all of the attributes that we value in a piece of fine machinery, and because of this it's satisfying to own, work on, and operate in a way that the LP-12 simply cannot match. Those negative attributes that define the performance of most idler-drive turntables are very effectively dealt with in the TD124, mostly by sheer manufacturing prowess. And the traditional Achilles' heel of a traditional suspended turntable - variation in pitch with suspension movement - is completely absent. In the end, if one's looking for the turntable of their dreams . . . both of these machines are "required listening". |
Ok but what about the original question , Thorens 124 or Linn 12??? |
I have a mid 80's Sondek 12 with a Basic tone arm and a Nagaoka cart and love the set up. Works very well with my Cary tube amp and Cary tube preamp. Good bang for the buck. |
Thanks Drubin,
Sometimes, actually, most of the time, I wonder if I sound like some old geezer on a park bench, or worse yet Forrest Gump telling these stories.
They're from my perspective to be sure, and I try to be complely faithful to the truth. What's wierd is that some of them sound so outlandish--but when I think about it, it's because they are outlandish that I realize, at least I hope people realize that that's why they're true. I have a vivid imagination, but I couldn't make these kinds of thing up. It's funny the amount of information one acquires in 25 years in an industry, from all perspectives,
Hobbiest, Store Owner, VP for a Manufacturer, Designer, and manufacturing company owner.
Stay tuned Drub, I'm sure a dead brain cell will spit another out when prompted by a thread. |
Drubin:What makes you think that I was trying to convince you? I read your postings, and you were saying the same as I. |
I don't have an issue with the discussion of Linn's marketing practices, What I was referring to was your seeming insistence that we all concede that you are right, that Linn is not the best. |
Drubin: As long as there is a forum here on the Gon for me and others to speak, we shall speak as we wish. Also as I see it Lrsky is saying the same as I about Linn. |
Schipo, give it rest already.
Lrsky, your stories are wonderful -- keep them coming! I wish there was a way to create a thread for you, which didn't allow comments, which you could add to whenever you like. |
I think Linn is predictably trying to play it both ways with their expensive upgrades.
1) Their tables are a well established reference standard, for better or for worse, for many, so they keep it unchanged and market that. Who can blame a company for keeping their flagship product around?
2) There's lots of money to be made selling upgrades to the long time reference standard as well, so they gladly do that as well.
Nothing strange here that I see. |
I doubt if many people still believe that the LP12 is the "best" even if it ever was. But i always wanted one because every review that i read seemed to describe the type of sound that i was looking for and whilst expensive it was not totally out of the realms of affordability. I prefer a presentation that sounds like music to me even if it is not absolutely accurate. I am not a musician and i never listen to classical or jazz but on rock/pop/blues and folk the LP12 gives a convincing impression of a live event, unlike any CD player that i have heard. Like Mapman i bought an Axis (all i could afford) which has served me well for nearly 20 years. It too has a lifelike sound to me, but to a lesser degree. I have had an LP12 now for over 3 years and love it. It is by no means the latest spec. but sounds so good that i dont feel the need to upgrade it. I think Linns upgrades are ridiculously overpriced. I do tend to buy things and keep them for a long time anyway. If money was no object then i would probably have something other than a top Linn but i would would certainly audition one just to see where it stands against others. |
"the Linn is then and now superseded by better designs"
Wouldn't surprise me after 20+ years.
Its still a classic and a long time reference standard though! |
Mapman to say that you have no need to explore another table is fine, if your satisfied with the sound of the one now being used. I say now has I did over 20years ago the Linn is then and now superseded by better designs. |
Schip,
I wouldn't assert that it (my Linn Axis) is the "best". I'm sure it can be improved upon if desired.
I only state that I am satisfied with the sound, performance and value it has awarded me over the years, so I am not compelled to change.
I also have a $100 Skagen watch that keeps perfect time, and looks sharp that I am not likely to give up until it finally dies. I know there are "better" watches out there, but I have no need. |
Mapman..well I am glad that to your ears it's sounds the best. But when placed side by side next to the Goldmund there was no contest. I will admit I wished Goldmund would have used the JVC motor from inception but it still is to my ears a better design all around. Now that was over 20yrs ago and I beleive their are now many better tables then the Linn. |
Yeah, but you should have seen the analog shi* hit the fan when I picked up SOTA a couple of years later.
They could abide my carrying Rega and a couple of 'lower fish' along with the Linn, but wow, it wasn't pretty.
Of course I'll never forget what a jerk the guy at SOTA was when I first called. I'll quote him, or at least paraphrase.
"Send me the price of two tables, I'll massage it for a while, (I swear to God he actually said this) and then call you when we're ready to ship."
Now, at the time, I guess, at least in the US market Linn was IT. Sota was maybe the first to take a serious pot shot at them. Oracle, I don't think was established yet, or at least I hadn't heard of them, and names like Thorens didn't compete. The 'Walker', not sure, came along about '85, and I sold a few. But SOTA hit the ground hard and posed at least a minor threat.
But don't get me wrong, in my neck of the woods, virtually every manufacturer was overly protective of its dealer base and took it personally if you took on a competitor of thiers.
Ready for this??
I hosted a coctail reception at my store in 1985/6 and had just taken on the SHURE surround sound processor, the first one I'm aware of...and I had it playing in one of my demo rooms. A speaker manufacturer came into the room and quietly said, "Turn that off", I didn't come here to compete with a Television."
They were slow to take on the marriage of audio/video, but have, and now market many successful ceiling, front, center etc speakers.
Wow, 24 years is a LOOOOONG time, and it changes practically everything. |
Schipo,
Yes.
Why:
- It's the best table I have ever owned
- It's been extremely reliable (20+ years and still going with no down time)
- in its current location on carpeted solid concrete foundation and massively heavy wood table, I have absolutely no issues ever with noise or feedback.
- Despite having a large record collection and growing and liking the sound, I only listen to vinyl maybe 20-30% of the time. My digital has always been competitive sound wise and when I have time to listen, I do not want to spend time manipulating vinyl. Since adding a music server, this is more the case than ever.
- when I do play records these days, it sounds even better than ever with other recent upgrades including DL103R cartridge and ARC tube pre-amp with phono section.
Basically, as long as it keeps working, the Linn is a non-issue for me. It sounds fantastic and nothing else I hear really sounds any better to my ears.
Basically, if it ain't broke, I ain't looking to fix it.
If the Linn does go up someday, I would most likely consider a different table mainly for just a change of scenery after all these years and mainly to perhaps provide a higher mass tonearm option for the low compliance DL103R cartridge, because I think that might work even better. |
Mapman: are you still using a Linn as your prime analog source,and if yes why? |
Wow, interesting stories about "big brother Linn".
How is it that I see high end shops these days carrying the Linn line as almost entry level high end products aside many other competing even more highly touted lines?
Also I recall the dealer I bought my Axis from back in the 80s also carried Rega, in fact I bought the Rega Planar 2 first and then went to the Linn because I didn't think the Rega was any better than the Dual I had before that or the Philips 312 I had before that.
That dealer must have been one valiant sole to dare resist the Linn police and sell another line. |
Now that everyone's heated up,let's look at some more of the "Linn picture".
Back in 1983, I opened an audio store. I wanted to carry the 'best'.
I selected, from products of the era, what I thought to be among that 'best'.
One product that I wanted to carry and did, was Linn Sondek. They did have very stringent requirements to become a dealer. At the time, caught up in the moment, I agreed to their requirements, thinking, 'hey, it's their product, they have the right to have input as to how and where, and with what other products, they are marketed.'
Very soon, after spending a full two days with the 'installation' of their product into my store, I began to rethink my choice. It all began with the revelation having another pair of speakers in the listening room would affect the sound. OK that's reasonable, 'excite the woofer, and send energy back through the crossover' and into the room, I get it. So, I'll lug speakers back and forth all day long to have that single speaker demo room. Work, but I am no stranger to hard work. Then the other shoe dropped. "Wearing a digital watch in the listening room will also ruin the sound."
Hmmmmm. Hmmmmmm....(Me pondering that one)
My wife had to hide her laughter from them. Knowing what a fanatic I am, she was gracious and didn't say anything.
OK, well, maybe the 'digital watch thing' could have some merit...maybe, but how much could it really effect the totallity of sound?
(The sound you heard was more shoes dropping, not the digital watch 'ruining the sound'.)
Then the theology that, "If someone runs in from the outside in desparate need of using the restroom, or wants to buy a postage stamp, or needs a drink of water--sell them a turntable.
My principal speaker supplier, which I won't name, was friends with Linn's people, but even they expressed serious doubts about the Linn choice, knowing that thier business model was one of exclusion of all other products.
They feared the I, because I decided to also carry one other English product, would be seduced to 'the dark side' of Anglophilism.
Let's think about this--if they won't allow dealers to carry other turntables along with theirs, that's their choice. They can set their distribution pattern in whatever light they wish to. The dealers have the right to decline, I know I had that right.
Let's fast forward some 17 years, and see how Linn came back to haunt me.
While working as VP of Sales and Marketing for THIEL Audio, I was teaching my "Eleven Hard Earned Lessons" to our dealers sales people.
In one store, while 'role playing' I told the sales person I wanted to hear the CS6. Two hours later he, without any regard to my protests, was STILL trying to sell me a Linn Sondek.
What chance did THIEL have in that store, if all the sales people, apparently from some contrarian training, behaved the same way? Seriously, it was actually spooky, it was as if they were involved in some 'cult', for want of a better word.
This whole scenario is Linn's option, again they can market however they chose. Its up to customers to make comparisons and then decide.
Also, Linn is not alone in this 'exclusivity' bent. Many small audio companies are protective of 'instore' competiton. Most dealers would rather present 'choice sale' rather than a 'yes or no' do you like it sales event, but that's not always their option. |
Uktel: I thank you for opening my eyes even more. I just left the Billy Vee site and was shocked that I did not even see a Rega TT nor a mention of the new WTA table. I hope all who have chastised me, will understand that I do not hate the Linn table. I just know like so many that there are now and then better tables compared to Linn. Heck I know that back in the mid 80s when I compared it to the Goldmund studio and even WTT. |
Lrsky
Actually it was me that made the statement regarding linns policy.
My nearest audio dealer here in the UK is Billy Vee sound systems,Take a look at thier website and you will understand a little more about my comments.
Then take a look at Walrus systems who are a genuine analogue shop for turntable lovers,You will see no Linns here because Linn will not want to be there and they wouldn't want Linns anyway?
The vast majority of audio retailers in the uk are just like Billy Vee.
I do not hate the LP12,I used various incantations of it over a five year period and am fully aware of its strengths and its weaknesses.
But I do hate the marketing machine that has led many people down an expensive path that ultimately wasnt the path that was for them. |
By not allowing dealers to carry better tables to be compared to side by side is that so hard to understand? Linns been using the same marketing ploy using the follow the tune bs. Do you really believe if you had the choice of side by side comparison between a Goldmund or a Linn, you would have chosen the Linn. I dumped my linn in 86 after hearing the Goldmund studio at Lyric HiFi. |
Schipo wrote, 2-16-09
"...Linn's unfair marketing advantage in the UK, by not allowing their table to be compared with other's..."
Just wondering how they are able to do this? How can they keep ANYONE from making comparisons?
I must not understand this statement correctly...
|
Schipo, The last time I checked, we live in a free enterprise society(at least in the free world)
What that means is you have the option to buy a product or not to buy! Linn is not putting a gun to anyone's head making them buy their turntable.
Based on the responses you've read on this forum thread, you should have by now gathered that people who buy linn tables and keep them do so because they like the way they sound, which is the bottom line in any audio purchase. Folks are not interested in whether or not its the latest technology.
If that were the case, tube amp sales would not be flourishing and have been doing so for the last 10-15 yrs.
Again, its old antiquated technology but folks that like the tube amp sound buy them for that reason period!!
Folks that buy a linn table from a reputable dealer I'm sure have the opportunity to demo it and if they don't like it they can bring it back. I don't consider that an unfair marketing advantage.
Finally, if you don't like linn tables(which is obvious) that's fine but what's not fine is you trying to make everyone else not like them just because you don't.
Life is about options and everyone has the option to buy whatever they want. And please don't talk about arrogance because anyone who has read your responses surely can see who is exuding arrogance. |
Redhunter,
I have an old Goldring cart of some kind on my old Dual 1264 on my second 2 channel a/v system and it too sounds really good in particular with the phono stage on the vintage Yamaha cr-420 receiver I have been using of late. Prior to the Yammy, when used with built in Tandberg and NAD phono stages, I always thought of it as just OK. Synergy was everything in this particular case. IT absolutely sings like never before now and though it sounds different, I find it equally enjoyable in its own way as the Axis/Denon combo in my main rig. |
Eee3 Your arrogance stands a head above all other linn owner's. I have just finished reading the posting from uktel, about Linn's unfair marketing advantage in the UK, by not allowing their table to be compared with other's.That should say it all, yet this will never convince the linn devotee out there that his linn has become an anvil being held up by blind sentiment. A product that still uses an outmoded science with backward technology. A company that refuses to investigate to use of better materials that continues to use the same old suspension system developed 35years ago.That even to this day is susceptible to "FOOT FALLS", and all are given the same tired story of "just follow the tune". |
Hi Mapman, i have used a K9 and a Goldring 1042 in both decks and the results are pretty much the same. The LP12 sounds better. The arms are Ittok LV11 on the LP12 and Akito on the Axis. The 1042 sounds great on both decks by the way. Recently i tried a Denon 103R on the LP12 and it was pretty good but in some ways not as good as the 1042. This was replaced after 4 months by an Audio Technica AT33PTG after i broke the cantilever on the 103R. The AT33PTG is definitely the best cartidge i have owned and really sings on the LP12. I will not try to fit it to the Axis because the headshell on the Akito is quite small and it would be a very tight fit, as was the Denon 103R. The Goldring is now back on the Axis and still sounding good with a newly run in stylus but the LP12/Audio Technica is a lot better. I was very happy with my Axis and bought an LP12 to satisfy my curiosity with all the hype, having wanted one for 25 years!. I drove 200 miles to pick it up, to avoid damage in transit, and i was dissapointed at first listening. I set it up over a few weeks and changed the oil and have never looked back. I keep the Axis to play 45's and to play less than perfect records on but always actually listen to the LP12.
My phono stages are all home made. I have 5 or 6 of them, all battery powered. One is moving coil only but i also have built a moving coil step up stage that can be used with any of the other moving magnet versions. I have to say that they all sound very good. In this case the phono stage is not the issue as i have swapped them between decks many times during their development. |
Redhunter,
I'm curious what cartridges have you used in comparison between Axis and LP12 and with which tonearms and corresponding phono pre?
IS it an apples/apples comparison of equally well matched cartridge to tonearm in each case and playing through same system otherwise?
I always wonder when tables sound different how much is the table itself as opposed to the overall synergy among table, cart, and tonearm, which is always very key IMO. |
I have a large room- 24 feet across so lots of room on each side of my speakers. When listening to CD's the sound stage rarely goes beyond the speakers, I think I have just one or two CD's that extend a little bit beyond. But when I play records on my Sota, the soundstage nearly doubles in size. The sound stage, on a few exceptional records even goes almost wall to wall. |
Mapman, i have an Axis that i have owned for nearly 20 years too and it has always been good and very fuss free. 3 years ago i bought a late 80's LP12/Ittok from EBay for what would have been about 1000 dollars. I live in the UK. I set up the lp12 myself from manuals on the internet and the the deck has been sounding wonderful ever since. In fact it is sounding better than anything i have ever heard and has needed no further tweaking. Compared to the Axis which is still set up on the same system, the LP12 is punchier, much more focussed with better treble extension and has a much blacker background between notes. It also appears to almost literally throw instruments around the room with its dynamics and soundstage presentation. I know there must be better decks around, especially nowadays with all the development that has gone on but for what i paid it is an awesome turntable and thoroughly stomps over any of the CD players that i have tried on my system, including a Lin Karik/Numerik mk111. |
As a "past" user, it can be as good as anyone. even better..
just that it takes a lot of trial and errors, and maintenance is high in terms of time...
but great thing is you have a big community to support you and endless routes to upgrade/?downgrade, if you're handy and willing to do open box work, it's a good choice.
For TD124, you can add a little more from the above points. |
Why is this "to get the suspension right thing" so difficult with the Linn? Are there tools to have this set up properly or is it a matter of "intuition"? It's like magic sometimes...
Chris |
"It's not mounting cartridges that's tough with the LP-12, it's getting the suspension properly balanced. That's what makes people nuts."
That's never been an issue for me with my Axis. I've had it for over 20 years.
Normal stylus wear is the only issue I've had to deal with in all that time.
An Axis can be had for much less than an lp12. It's said to have the larger Linn's best attributes in a simpler and more user friendly package. |
It's not mounting cartridges that's tough with the LP-12, it's getting the suspension properly balanced. That's what makes people nuts. |
NO_regrets said:
"I didn't once think about what a new table would sound like."
I feel the same way even with my lowly Axis.
The Axis is not any harder than most table to set up correctly. You just need to use the standard paper cartridge mounting templates that Linn provides. These can be downloaded over internet and printed on any decent black and white home printer. Couldn't be easier or cheaper....
What is it about the LP12 that people seem to think makes it such a beast to set up properly? I don't see it with the Axis. Maybe the answers for those fed up with LP12s is to step down to an Axis, if you can find one.
I did spend a lot of time mounting various cartridges on various tables I sold working in various Hi Fi chains many years ago, which might give me an advantage over many that at most may do it once in a blue moon at most these days. Practice does make perfect with getting these things right. |
