Kumza Stabi S or Rega P10 ??

@jc51373 

One of the best ( and least expensive ) updates for the Rega P10 is to mount it on the Rega wall bracket ( shelf )  - specifically designed for the P10.

The improvement over floor mounted stands is significant.

I would encourage you to have a serious look at it.

https://www.rega.co.uk/accessories/planar-8-10-wall-bracket

Been running the p10 for a solid few weeks now every day. Love the table, love the catridge. Happy with the choice. Compliments my gear VERY well. I put the P10 on an HRS, not sure it even needed it but sure looks nice. 😂

Overall set and forget it fine for me for now until I get the itch again. This is however an EXCELLENT turntable. Lively and neutral with great bass. 

Kuzma too dull

Not my experience at all. With the right cartridge and arm Kuzma tables have so much life and energy when the music calls for it.

I don't understand a high end turntable without VTA. When I go from a Dynaflex to 200 gram I adjust VTA.

Can I just say that’s my experience from various auditions - I hasten to add I’m no authority and each to their own

Have you heard both decks? Very different sounding IMHO. I’m personally not a massive fan of either the Kuzma or Rega sound - Kuzma too dull and Teutonic - Rega to excitable and feisty. 

Well here is a new and unexpected wrinkle in my time with the P10 so far as I audition phono stages.

I have a Konus 1000 Phono stage in house to listen to (it’s wonderful), with my P10 it’s making a very undesirable, very audible hum to my speakers. This is mainly due to Regas old school ground wiring scheme from back when MM was more popular. Most companies (technics for example) have moved away from that to full balanced wiring.

This will likely preclude me from using any dual mono, (possibly fully balanced) Phono stages without living with this hum issue. This to me, is yet another limitation to the Rega tables, and to me the P10 shouldn’t have this lack of flexibility at it’s price.

@dbagstrick I have not cleaned them yet, but that is on my list of things for sure. trying to decide to just get a $200 set up or go big. I will keep this in mind though. 

@jc51373  Nice cartridge for sure! I've read some really positive things about that and other hana carts. I am using the Apheta 3 as it was designed using the Rega tonearm and it's set and forget. But I've used other manufacture carts in the past such as you are doing with great results (Lyra is one example).

Do you clean your records? I found my VPI 16.5 has reduced if not all together gotten rid of the static cling.

@dbagstrick 

thank you, great advice. I am reserving judgement from now until I feel its run-in. I'd describe the table a neutral, compared to my last table anyway (Mofi Ultradeck) which had a warmer presentation overall. I do love the tone arm on this table, it's so beautifully designed. My one peck at it so far is this damn merino wool mat they use sticking to my records! Not all, but some I need to destat. I might trade it out for a Stein mat anyway. 

I will say this, the Cart I am using (umami Red) definitely sounds better than the MSB Premier DAC I had for years and sold recently, so there's that. I have zero complaints on the price of the Umami Red, in fact they could charge more. 

I've had the P8 and P10 together in my system with the same cartridge for a lengthy period and the P10 is better all around. Not significant, but just better in every aspect. 

I can't disagree more with rossb but we all hear thing differently. I can only go by my experience and the handful of friends who also heard the comparison and all agreed the P10 is overall better. Not bright, not analytical, but retrieves all the music as it was recorded. Yes, it will present bad pressings as such, it's not hiding anything with a warm blanket. 

Give your cartridge time to break in, as well as the table. It's not really fair to give an immediate evaluation, especially on a new cartridge. I'm glad you are starting to experience the difference!

I think was working through the break in with the cartridge, I underestimated that apparently. Things are sound superb. Table and Cart are a lovely combination so far. Warm, tight bass, smooth, and super detailed but delicately detailed. 

The P10 is not a warm or weighty sounding turntable. It sounds a little bright, and quite analytical. I found I preferred the P8, which had a fuller, warmer, and more natural sound, although gave up a litte bit of detail and drama compared with the P10. The Hana is a warm sounding cartridge, so what you are hearing is completely attributable to the turntable.

Got the P10 with the Hana red, listened for a couple hours last night. I am borrowing a set of speakers (New Sim Audio monitors) while I await my Falcon Gold Badges. so everything I am thinking at this point may not be the turntable. 

First impressions, are it sounds light, delicate, airy, decent bass. Overall I feel like I lost some warmth and weight I had with my previous TT. Tons of detail retreival, some of the best I've heard and I have owned MSB DACs and Antipodes servers before I went all analog. So far, I am just sort of luke-warm on the sound, don't love it, don't hate. This may all due to break-in of the cart, speakers are broken in. 

I may have to at least create the option for myself to audition the Feickert and see if I hear any significant differences. 

What about the Hana makes you know it wont require shims?  What do you mean by shims? For VTA or for azimuth? Using a tonearm that allows you to actually adjust these parameters is an advantage over the Rega arms. If you are set on using a Hana cart (totally valid) then I would not buy a P10.  I would find and alternative with an adjustable arm and have it aligned professionally.  Then your are set and can forget!  I agree with Tablejockey that getting the P10 with the best Rega  cartridge you can afford is a fine idea.  Don't worry about it sounding thin. It sounds great.

@jc51373 I entered the Thread when a idea to 'set and forget' was made known.

I have a history of using the following Drive Types in the following chronological order of one being superseded, Belt Drive (80's-90's), Idler Drive (90's - 00's), Direct Drive ( 2016 - Present).

I still own all Drive Types and am quite wed to the DD.

I get the opportunity to hear BD and DD in other owned systems as well, not too much of Idler Drives today, even though my last encounter was very satisfying and very much enjoyed.

I seem to be free from prejudice, when it comes to Drive Types, but do know through experiences had, each drive can be quite attractive if mounted on a suitable support structure, and has a Tonearm in use, that allows the TT>Tonearm pairing to offer up their best.

One other lesson learnt from extensive investigation and experiences of Platter Mats, is that a listening/set up environment are all quite unique, certainly not ubiquitous in the materials used and methods chosen.

No TT > Tonearm > Cart' has a ubiquitous performance when used in a a variety of environments.

Platter Mats Types used to offer a improved interface between Platter and Cart' can offer a real benefit or detriment to the SQ, it is worthwhile trying out various versions once everything else, that usually is a concern is addressed. 

The Platter Mat material when discovered to be a correct choice for a particular environment, can/will bring the SQ to another level of attraction.

My experiences have shown to myself.  A Puck or Clamp is best selected following the Platter Mat Selection.

Again for the Pick/Clamp, there is not a set formula (Trial by Turnover of Types), following the Platter Mat selection, the addition of the Puck/Clamp can tidy the overall presentation up further.

I have seen Bossing Mallets produced from a Densified Wood at a very reasonable cost, converting a part of this mallet type into a Puck can be achieved reasonably cheap.

I have heard recently a Densified Wood Puck in use, during a comparison of Platter Mats and Pucks, the Densified Wood Puck was a New Produced Item and compared against Pucks from very respected Companies.

The Densified Wood brought something of real interest to the comparisons taking place, especially when having costed pennies as it was produced from a Off Cut Material.           

@pindac 

Yeah I considered them, still open to them, but they solve one problem while creating some of their own unique issues. I am not in the camp of one being better than the other, I think both (belt & DD) have their own merits and drawbacks. The Luxman looks nice though

@richdirector

Well said! I do tend to agree with this..I’ve spent the last 25 years fiddling with digital analyzing the results which in the end is losers game. I leaning to the P10 at this point.

I just put in the newest Van Alstine phono stage into my system replacing the onboard thats in my Sugden IA4. Kind of gobsmacked by how much better it is. Everything is better, low level listening, detail, dynamics, and it's just as smooth as the Sugden phono. Pulled the entire soundstage forward. I don’t know anything but that onboard phono I’ve used in my Integrated, so I can’t compare this to others but sure taught me what a difference the phono makes in the chain.

Life is too short for constant fiddling as you try to find the subtle differences and you forget why you listen to music in the first place. 

That said I'm still on my RP8 with apheta 2 so lower down the pecking order and a generation behind. 

@rsf507 

it still has full adjustment available without any added complexity of the P-Mount detachable headshell. 

The Tonearm on the P10 is alot of the reason it's still on my list. 

@jc51373 'DD TT' is an abbreviation  used for a Direct Drive Turntable

@jc51373 regarding cartridge alignment ....not knowing the Rega arm and from some of the comments I was under the impression there is little adjustability of any cartridge in the Rega headshell. Fine tuning overhang of the stylus is essential IMO

@pindac 

What is a DD TT? 

@rsf507 

Elaborate on that comment. The hana fits with no shims. Cartridge alignment is like any table where you adjust into it. So what is it you are referring to with that comment? Are you suggesting if I use a cart other than a Rega it will not align? 

@jc51373 you have stated " .I am coming around to the idea of set and forget "

Does this now steer you toward the notion that a DD TT might be one to consider on the shortlist.

If cartridge alignment isn't spot on you are just wasting $$$ IMHO

It’s obvious by the way the Rega carts mount with their 3 hole installation-no messing with alignment. 3 screws, set tracking force/AS and play.

Any other cart, including the Hana will be dependent on the accuracy of the using  an alignment jig.

The reviews on the Apheta/Aphelion suggest they are competent in their price point.

Naturally, you must have a phonostage that is up to the task of putting the table/cart in its best light.

@tablejockey 

I'd at least like the option to change carts once in a great while..Also the Hana doesn;t need to be shimmed so I think it comes down personal preference. But why do you think those carts will be less fuss than a another cart that doesn't need shims?

If you're really set on a no fuss setup, it makes the most sense to get the P10 with the  Rega Apheta or Aphelion.

They're designed to go with the P10. 

Thanks for all the advice...I am coming around to the idea of set and forget, and the cart I want doesn't need shims. I figure I can always tinker with phono stages. Might be a good thing one less thing to mess with and spend more money on! 

Now I am just wrestling with the sound element between them tables and high mass vs low mass. Maybe its in my head but I wonder if the P10 will sound too lean. I am thinking the Hana red resolves that though. More I sit on the idea more I like the P10 more and more. Doesn't mean I am decided though! Narrowed to the Feickert with the Schick or the P10..Both would have the Red on it. 

I agree with some of the above comments...the Rega arm is excellent and if you can live with it set up once and forget then this is the way to go.

If you want to experience other cartridges without  the hassle of shims then you need to go another route.....pretty simple. And yes having a dealer for support is great but if you are thinking of cartridges in the $1000's range then having your local dealer for that and set up is nice and get the table that causes your hear to jump

@jc51373 

The P10 works well in his vintage Marantz tube system. The Atlas works on his P10 without the need to alter the VTA.  He also uses an HRS isolation platform under the P10.

Seems to me there are a few core issues here that might need sorting. 

A: do you really need that particular dealer to define your home listening environment? (Or is the tail wagging the dog to some extent?) 

B: as good as the Rega P10 may be, it’s limiting 

C: the Kuzmas are expensive but they deliver a lot of value for the money. 

I’ve had a ‘crush’ on the P10 for a while, but I can’t live with a locked-in tonearm, especially at that price point. I’m too much of a tinkerer.

I recently bought a Kuzma Stabi R after deciding it was time to move on from my modded VPI Franken-table. I already own two isolation platforms that can work well, so that was an extra synergy. I guess my point is, if you can stretch your budget upwards, you might want to look higher up the Kuzma chain (the R) and think about how to involve your dealer on the ancillaries (as you mentioned). 

I am running an Airtight PC-7, formerly a Hana SL.

You can't go wrong with any of these tables....I just love the sound and aesthetics of the Kuzma. I use a butcher block below it on some hard rubber insulating balls...solid as a rock.

I am using a 12" tonearm, hence my reason for the Kuzma.

Hope this helps.

@rwanda 

What cart are you running on your Kuzma? In full disclosure part of the issue for me is the dealer who sold me my current table, which is a year old, is giving me close to full trade towards Rega or Feickert, he does not sell Kuzma. So this is the fly in ointment when it comes Kuzma.

He's given me so much help and advice over the course of time I feel a certain loyalty. But I am still considering ways to make the Kuzma work and maybe throw him the , cart and phono business. 

sorry for miss spelling....should be "I owned"

Hi

I woned a pretty "modded" Rega P9 with the 2000 arm, now I own the Kuzma Stabi s12 with  Ref. 313 arm (12") ....it is way ahead of the Rega for me. It has been used with a Hana SL and ways excellent and now an Airtight PC-7...and is sublime.

The P10 is an excellent table but only if you want to set up and forget...and use Rega cartridges....as has been pointed out shims are an issue....but you can get it set up correctly. The Kuzma for me is just way more "table" on every aspect and I really enjoy Franck Kuzma's whole business model

I think rsf507’s comment above about the synergy of the Kuzma table/tonearm combo is valid FWIW. I don’t think you would go wrong with any of the 3. The Schick tonearm is still Stereophile class A, a real bargain. The Feickert Blackbird is class B. The PS-10 is class A (If you put any weight into Stereophile, which probably tends to be more biased than TAS).

@dcevans 

Thanks for the information, very helpful. I keep vacillating back between the tables leaning more towards Feickert as my dealer will sell me his lightly used demo with a Schick. I still like the P10 for the slam dunk value it offers and he will give me alot of runway if I decide I want to trade it back for something else. I am putting either a Hana Red or Blue on ant of these tables. Likely the Red.

Funny you mention the Trio there is a used Trio out there right now I was considering but by the time I am done configuring it it's spendy. Trying to keep it all under $8k. 

You do not need to spend 3K on a HRS plinth obviously. A Mapleshade maple plinth with brass footers would look great with the Stabi. 

Pertaining to my last post, I don’t think there is any evidence that a higher mass tonearm with low compliance cartridge will wear out the grooves faster, but theoretically one would think so. 

I looked at Kuzma Stabi, Rega PS-10 and Feickert Woodpecker with a Thomas Schick 10.5 inch tonearm. Did not audition. Knew I would have to invest in a stable plinth for the Kuzma Stabi like HRS $$, did not care for the look of the PS-10 with white platter. Read that Herb Reickert has a Feickert Blackbird with Schick 10.5 inch tonearm, and my tastes tend to align with his, so I went with the Feickert Woodpecker. I like the setup a lot, the ability to swap out headshells and cartridges with ease. I did buy the graphite headshell. Sometimes I wonder if the low compliance cartridge needed with the Schick tonearm may accelerate the wear on the vinyl. If you can afford it, the dual motor Blackbird or triple motor Trio will reportedly lower the noise.

J.R Boisclair at Wally Tools offers it. You send in your cart and they determine deviations for sra/zenith/azimuth for your cart and make a shim with corrective angles that mounts between cart and arm. 

For many full adjustable arms this might be accomplished in other ways but not with the Rega.

What is a Wally Analysis? 

One point I agree with @mijostyn in that I wouldn’t even think of using a Rega with a high end MC without the wally analysis and resulting shim set.

Anyone who has setup a cart and dialed in by ear knows that the extremely rough ’ shim under arm base ’ Rega method is not going to get you there. t least not in every instance..,

@karl_desch 

How is your friend liking the P10? 

I think both are great tables. Neither are head and shoulders better that the other.  But if you like to change things gradually over time, you want to be able to try different arms or carts, then Kuzma or Feickert, no question about it.

I have a Stabi R and my good friend has a P10 with a Lyra Atlas so I have experience with both companies.

Still I'd go with the Stabi S and a Stogi arm there's just something about the synergy of a Kuzma table/arm combo IMO. 

If ~ $6k tables aren't too far out of line may I also throw the STST Motus DQ as another to investigate? Since I have an interest will just leave it at that :)