Krell K-300i (with its optional DAC) vs. McIntosh MA7200 (with DA1) vs. ? (including DAC)

I'd go with the Krell. Never owned either.   
Caw caw.

You're funny! I should have added to my P.S. that humor is very much appreciated, as well! Thanks!

Any reason why that Krell over the others? That's a lot of Class A power up front with heat sinks that seem on the small side. I would assume sweet sound but I'm wondering how hot it would get. 

I have the KRELL K-300i and I would pair it with a speaker that was not overly warm or dark. If may work but I think a neutral to bright sounding speaker on the KRELL is killer. I use the KRELL with a bright RAAL SR1a headphones (it needs a ton of power) and it makes those phones sound incredible. So smooth and non-fatiguing.

The KRELL also sounds great with my Thiel CS3.7’s. The KRELL does go down to 2 Ohm (continuously) at under 300 watts (I think). The bass on the KRELL is the strongest of all my amps, CODA, Benchmark, some Class D now sold.

I have the KRELL in a bedroom closet and it does not get that warm, definitely not hot. It has that iBias thing to do Class A in a different way. Companies like Gryphon seem to pooh pooh that approach, but it sounds great to me.

I am not much of a MAC fan.

I auditioned the RÖST for a few days.  I liked it very much, smooth and warm but powerful for small integrated.  If I can ever scrape together the cash I might go for one of their power amps.  Another suggestion would be to try and get in front of a Bryston B135 Cube. Thing has 20 year warranty and gets good reviews.

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I won’t comment on the new Krell integrated, it might well be a very fine piece. Krells of the day had high variability in sound quality, despite always being built like tanks.

I heartily recommend the Hegel H390 or 590. No phono stage on board though. The quality of pre/amp sections, in terms of delicacy, imaging, timbre, speaker control and raw power are absolutely superb. No apologies whatsoever to megabuck ss amps and integrated much much more expensive. Suggest you pick up a lightly used 390 for about 4000-4500, try it. In the (very) unlikely event it doesn’t impress you can resell in a jiffy with no loss.

I just purchased the McIntosh MA8900 and Sonus Faber Olympica Nova V speakers, so putting my money where my mouth is. But I do wonder how much of a sonic bump you’d get just from the integrated amp upgrade..?  Speakers would be my next move. 

I just had the K-300i at my house and would recommend anyone looking for an under $10k integrated to listen to it.  It's a much more open sound than I expected. Not bright at all, dynamic and clean. I tried the digital module using a Lumin streamer and USB and thought it sounded "soft" vs my MHDT Balanced Pagoda.  It does have an HDMI ARC and 2 HDMI inputs for someone who wants to hook their TV up to their 2 channel system. That's a great addition that not many others are adding. As far as the McIntosh is concerned my only experience is in stores. Recently I heard an MA8900 with Wilson Sabrinas and Yvettes.  They both sounded very pleasant and similar.  They switched to a D'Agostino $25k or so integrated and the difference between the 2 speakers was much more apparent.  I don't know what that says but I actually liked the cheaper Sabrinas (not the SabrinaX) with the McIntosh better than the D'Agostino and the Yvette better with the D'Ag.

@bigtex22, CONGRATS! My friend just informed me the speakers we were listening to that day were Sonus Faber Olympica Nova III. I'm sure once you break in your new playmates the sound will be just sublime! I'm just as sure you'll have a heck of a lot of fun getting there, as well! ENJOY! Have no idea how much break-in your new Sonus might need but I wouldn't worry about a thing for the first 30 or 40 hours, or so. The MAC will sound great right out of the box and will only improve in time.

Curious!  The day my friend and I heard the MAC MA8900/Sonus Faber Olympica Nova III pairing, the shop had the speakers way out into the room... guessing probably a good 8 feet or more from the wall behind them... and separated about 8 feet or, I would guess. Guessing the sweet spot was 7'... maybe 8'? Again, since I wasn't shopping, I wasn't paying attention, just having fun!  They were also toed into the sweet spot just a little; not much. Baffles were pointed just past the listerners' ears. Is this anyway near the way you're thinking of setting yours up in your sound room? There's no way I could do that in my living room. I would be relegated to finding something that could perform well under more conventional placement considerations. One pair I've read about that can do that are the Stenheim Alumine III but those babies are mucho dinero! Not something I would seriously consider unless I won the lottery. I've read the Ohm Walsh Tall can do that, too, but they get pretty big as you go up the line. Even though my living room is 14' X 23' with a 9' ceiling, I can only accommodate slender speakers (e.g. no more than 10" or 11" wide, or so) that perform well no more than around 3' from the wall behind them (i.e. wall to baffles) and separated no more than around 6' to 7' from each other. This is one reason why I think my living room has me kind of hemmed in with regard to possible future upgrades and why I think the system I have now just may be optimized for the physical placement limitations of my sound room. Also, why I'm skeptical how much of a significant fidelity improvement I'd really get upgrading to an MA7200 without upgrading speakers and more worried, still, how much speakers who could perform well under placement limitations like that would cost. It's kind of a Catch 22 kinda thing. Rearranging the living room is not an option for many reasons I won't go into here. In the next life, I'll build or buy a house either with a dedicated sound/entertainment room or a larger living room that can accommodate more options. C'est la vie!

Thanks, everyone, for your input! Much appreciated!

The following review compares the 2x more expensive Boulder 866 integrated with the KRELL K-300i.

Boulder 866 integrated amplifier | Stereophile.com

Thanks for that @yyzsantabarbara . I'm looking at both of those right now. I was supposed to audition the Boulder this past Saturday but the dealer told me after I showed up that he couldn't get to it as he had too much stuff in his shop. I drove an hour and a half and left after 20 minutes. And some of these old, full of themself dealers wonder why people do so much online shopping. 

@oldaudiophile

To your question on speaker placement, when I demoed the SF Olympica Nova V, they had the speakers pulled out in front of the gear too. I asked the dealer about placement and he suggested that against the wall will be fine, and may amp the bass a bit (I’m okay with this). As for toeing in / out, etc, my speakers won’t come in for a few weeks, so we’ll see, but I most likely will have them near the wall facing straight out into the living room. I’ll report back once I have the system set up.

@oldaudiophile   I hope all is well.  A little more active over here compared to the Stereophile forum.  

I might focus on improving your DAC.  You can keep using the Marantz as a transport, but stepping forward with a better DAC will have a big impact.  

That being said, a better amp can have a positive impact.  Mc and Krell are great.  I don't listen to either one frequently.  A buddy had the Krell and sold it but kept a Krell Power Amp driving a pair of Focal Arias.  It is very good sounding gear. 

I have preferences for a few other brands.  If you are looking for clean, clear, accurate and powerful, Hegel is awesome.  If you are looking for something that is more musical and engaging while still delivering a lot of power, I love AVM.  

You are between the 390 and 590 from Hegel but they have very good internal DACs.  You would get excellent amplification AND a DAC upgrade with either.  

The AVM A5.2 is a nice unit and would leave you room to upgrade your DA converter at existing budget.  Read the review from Gary Beard over at Positive Feedback.  Or the A6.2 Master Edition is right on budget. There is a recent review from Herb Reichert in stereophile. 

Both would be brilliant with your current speakers and would work well with speakers would be natural progressions from the Revels like higher end Revels or Perlisten, etc....

as usual, scott (@verdantaudio) provides solid, specific advice

my only add to his comments is that the h390/590 in the hegel int amp line provide an excellent degree of ’musicality’ to how they present the music, noticeably moreso than the lower models (h190 and down) in their stepladder which are quite as scott describes (i have no affiliation to hegel, other than having had or currently have their h390, 590, 160, 190, 90, rost, h20)

while the onboard dacs are very good, the analog amp sections are truly among the very best in powerful solid state

@verdantaudio, yes, that is certainly solid advice! I’m using the Marantz as a transport now with the MAC’s DA1 DAC (Pangea interconnects). What I’m finding is the DA1 might be just a hair "better" than the Marantz (e.g. tiny bit more bass extension... smoother frequency response overall... ?). However, a more objective pair of ears (i.e. my wife) really doesn’t notice any difference. Fact of the matter is, I listen more to vinyl than CD. Regardless, any suggestions for an external DAC? I’ve read some about Chord DAC’s.

I’ve spent quality time with Focal Aria 926 and 936, powered by my amp and amplification similar to it. I loved the 936!

I’ve done a fair amount of reading on Hegel amps and read some reviews by professionals my ears tend to agree with but I’ve never heard any. Certainly can’t argue with "clean, clear, accurate and powerful", provided something like this is properly paired with appropriate speakers! For example, I’ve always really, really liked Dynaudio speakers and have always been very impressed by them. However, I’ve always found other speakers I enjoyed just a tad more in the final result. I think my ears tend to find the Dynaudio sound signature just too darned accurate & flat (good flat) and there is certainly nothing wrong with that! Quite the opposite, as a matter or fact. There’s a lot right with that! However, my ears can never seem to fall in love with them. My ears are so fickle!

Not familiar with AVM amps and haven’t done much, if any, reading about them. Also never heard of Perlisten speakers. You’ve given me some homework. I’ll have to check this out. Thanks!

@yyzsantabarbara, thanks for that review! I had already read it. Your tip compelled me to read it again. Much appreciated!

@bigtex22, yes; by all means, let us know how you make out with speaker placement after everything is seasoned or broken-in. That would certainly be useful information! I'd especially be interested in whether or not you felt the need to spike them or do anything else other than just placement.

ENJOY!  

oldaudiophile,

I can add my commentary. I own the Revel 228be with two subs and McIntosh MC462. 

I demoed the Sonus Faber Olympica III and Nova 3 a number of times. On Classe’ Delta gear and Musical fidelity. They were about 36” off the front well when I heard them. 


Anyway I would not chase McIntosh gear as my first move or electronics honestly. Mac to Mac sounds somewhat the same.  The better ones are of course better… but I would switch out your speakers. Ask yourself what are you looking for and will a better integrated do that and in what magnitude?


The Performa3 F206 really lacks bass extension and needs subs in a bad way. Pushing them 39” or less (from driver face) from the wall could help. The F206 is a very good speaker other than bass depth. A good sub system could take it to a whole other level. 

The Olympica III/Nova are very enjoyable speakers. Changing out from the revel 206 will get you more bass (both deeper and more of it) and just a totally different sound. They are a touch warm at 80-100hz, a touch rolled down at 2-4K and a touch tipped up at 10k to my ear. Very subtle and tasteful tuning. So a bit tuned and very enjoyable. Technicalities are not better than the revel (soundstage, detail etc) just a different tuning. I would have bought the Olympica III Nova if it had real grills but I have two young kids. I favor a neutral tuning. There are a few used pairs of Olympica’s on here that have been for sale awhile. They would be worth looking at. 

Moving up the Revel line will get you more than you might think over the 206. The highs on the 328be are the best I have heard. The mids on the 228be/328be are outstanding. Very natural and they pop out In the soundstage while still having a super flat frequency response. They sound very clean and can play crazy loud. 

Another speaker worth looking at would be used Wilson Sabrina’s. They sound a lot like the Olympica III but have a bit more bass impact and the mids are a little more forward (pull or minus depending on taste). The mids sound more sibilant and stressed on the Sabrinas than the Sonus Faber but take that comment with a gain of salt. The Sabrina is also tuned to sit close to the wall (quick bass roll off brought up by room gain).  

As a side note the Classe’ Delt amp and pre is great. Pricy but very good. Warm and with a powerful sound. 

I would post in the amp forum to see what people felt they gained climbing the mac line. I have hear most of the line but never in direct comparison of each other. Mac’s newest line C1100/C53 preamps and MC462/MC611 amps are pretty great but the lower end integrated seemed pretty average to me. Not sure if the 8900 would have the same magic as the highend separates. Maybe it does.  

@james633, NICE TOYS! Thanks for the feedback & guidance! Always  appreciated!

Although my sound room (i.e. living room) is fairly good size (i.e. 14' X 23'), for reasons I won't bore you with here, I'm forced to contend with somewhat challenging placement issues. Basically, my system is set up at on end of that space, which is really about 14' X 9' with a right channel corner placement issue and a left channel with a rather large opening behind it (4') to the kitchen/dinning room. It's kind of an open floor plan in a post & beam log home. Good acoustics but sandwiched space. Re-arranging the entire living room would be the way to go but that's not an option. As such, I can't accommodate big speakers or speakers that need to be placed far out into the room (e.g. no more than about 2.5' to 3' from wall behind to baffle) or separated by more than 6 or 7 feet, max. Also, they'd have to be skinny (e.g. no wider than about 9 to 11 inches, max).  The speakers I've read about sophisticated enough to handle this cost about as much as a compact car. In my next life, I'll buy or build a home with a more flexible sound room or man cave.

I have to respectfully disagree with you about the F206 lacking bass extension and response, at least compared to the 18 different pairs of speakers I did serious seat-time with for that upgrade. I haven't measured but, in my room, I'm confident I'm getting an honest 40 Hz and likely a little more. There were speakers I demoed that were noticeably a bit "better" but all of them either needed more juice than my MAC MA5200 and/or were more expensive. I'm certain my room acoustics and most of the music I like to listen are why I'm so satisfied with the F206. They actually sound better in my room than they did in a very good sound room at the audio shop I demoed them in. A friend I was with, at the time, agrees and he is a bona fide multi-channel home theater, self-admitted bass head. I've got my F206 32" from a sheetrock wall in back of them to their baffles and separated by just under 6' (on-center driver to driver).  That's not optimum, I know, but the best I can do in my room. If I listened to a lot more bass-heavy material and had room for a sub or a multi-channel home theater system, I'm sure I'd agree with you about their bass response. When it comes to that, I'm much less fond of reach and much more partial to accuracy and tightness. Judging from the equipment you have, I'm guessing your are, too. During my last speaker shopping expedition, the best I heard was a pair of traded in Aerial Acoustics 6T powered by a MAC MC275 stack. A pair of Triangle Australe EZ powered by the same MAC stack impressed, as well, but I'm convinced there was something wrong with those trade-ins because of how they dramatically failed with male and female vocals. With musical instruments, they were fantastic! With vocals, however,... well, there just had to be something wrong with that pair. Even the sales person admitted he heard it, too. He tried playing with room placement but nothing helped. Aerial Acoustics 6T or, better yet, the 7t, would be an interesting consideration but not with a MAC MA5200. Those babies just need more juice to shine.   

I hear what you're saying about just an amp upgrade yielding only subtle improvement and suspect you are absolutely right about this. Hence, my reticence in this regard.

With respect to a speaker upgrade with the amplification I have now AND the room placement constraints I have to contend with, those I've read about that could possibly deliver the goods cost about as much as an average compact car.

I have a question for you about your 228be. Too big for my room but I'm interested in Beryllium tweeters. Where is the sweet spot or listening position in your sound room? Specifically, how much empty space is there behind it, if any. I've never done serious seat-time with Beryllium tweeters and I'm wondering if they might, in any way, sound like AMT designs. In my experience, going as far back as the original ESS AMT, speakers with AMT tweeters sound best when the sweet spot has plenty of empty space behind it (e.g. at least 6' and, preferably, more). Otherwise, they can become quickly fatiguing. This is yet another room placement issue I have to deal with. My sweet spot, the couch, puts my ears 9' away from the speakers, around 36 to 38 inches off the floor, depending upon how much I slouch, and there is a 7" solid log wall right behind it. Sorry to get so technical but that's the kind of mind I have. It's a curse!