Curious about this myself. However, the thing to remember is that the Platinum magnet models all have significantly less output than the non-platinum models...which may discount the Platinum magnet models if your phono stage cannot support ultra low-output MC's. I really do believe that the output of the cartridge is something that many a'philes ignore- and then wonder why their particular model sounds less "alive" than the cartridges that are more suited to their particular phono stage ( output wise!!).
I recommend a moving coil step up transformer (SUT) for use with any low-output (less than 1 millivolt) mc cartridge. This will give you the needed gain and sound much better than a typical high-gain phono stage. And a much lower noise floor so you will hear more subtle details present in the recording!
A used Koetsu Black would be a good budget choice. Or a used Supex 500 (same designer as the Koetsu). Either one used with a good SUT will provide plenty of sonic realism from your favorite LP's!
Great advice friends, i really appreciate it all. Am using Pass' xp-15, so no worries of gain/noise i think, although i made a gift to a friend of one of Bob's Devices suts and it really transformed his system. We were both stunned as we listened to it break in over a weekend of non-stop listening.
I have a few Platinums, and they all match amazingly well with both the Bob’s Devices 1131 and Sky 40 SUTs. The 1131 sounds much better at 40x than 20x, btw. The SUT provides plenty of gain when paired with a good MM of your choice (keep it below 46dB gain); this opens up tons of options. Also, keep that SUT-to-MM interconnect very short (0.5m).
I’ve run a Koetsu cartridge as my main source for several years, and though I get curious about other carts, the Koetsu haven’t lost a bit of their magic and charm. Still waiting to hear something else be "it", like the Koetsu was to me within its first few notes.
I like stone bodies better than the RSP -- better bass. Worth the extra coin for an Onyx. I haven’t heard the other parts of the line, but the Urushi models look very intriguing. Though they have higher output, my experience with a Shelter Harmony (0.5mV) indicates that these too would probably be excellent with a SUT.
I have a Koetsu Urushi Gold and I don't know how I ever lived without it. It is an amazing cartridge, but takes at least 50 hours to sound its best. I went from a Grado Statement 1 that I've had retipped twice by Soundsmith. I thought I would never change from this cartridge because I always thought it did everything right for me and my system. I've always wondered about Koetsu's, so I took the plunge. Now I know why people never give them up, they're magical! They sound so right they put a spell on you. I know I'm never going to give it up now! Ha ha!
I have the koetsu black. Must have over 2000 hours on it and it is just starting to degrade a bit. How long do these last? Bought it new about 13 years ago.
I'd hazard to guess you had more than 2,000 hours in 13 years, but I'm thinking of myself. I have limited cart experience; started with a benz gold (didn't enjoy it much), but with the great trade-in program they used(?) To have i soon went to a medium output woodbody benz. Loved it. Then when Lyra replaced the Helikon with the Kleos i jumped ship, and haven't missed much. It seems to me that there's an entry "price for admission" as I've changed brands, and if that holds true in moving to Koetsu then itseems (to me) probable that without going to at least a Urushi it would only be a step sideways. Bear in mind that the Kleos, when it first came out, was 2.5K. Now look at the price. I'd like to state again how i appreciate the input. All of it. Ours can sometimes seem such a tiny, closed-off world.
I would definitely go for the Koetsu Black. It`s hugely dynamic, and a real bargain compared to the other Koetsus. I have owned one, and I still regret selling it. Moving further up the Koetsu line brings still more dynamics and better holography, but at a cost. I have owned Koetsus off and on for the last 30 years, and my current one is a Coralstone. An amazing cartridge, but the Black was more fun, IMO.
roberjerman 09-11-2017 9:36pm I recommend a moving coil step up transformer (SUT) for use with any low-output (less than 1 millivolt) mc cartridge.
SUTs are a disaster for amplification of LOMC’s. Transformers have non linearities, particularly with regard to phase accuracy and are prone to ringing, it is not possible for a SUT based phono system to accurately reproduce what is on the record correctly. Ringing muddies the sound and phase anomalies result is harmonics destroyed and sound stage distortions - the musical timing is lost. Even the much vaunted Jensen transformers have to resort to zobel networks to try and tidy these issues up. If you only listen to noise then by all means use a SUT, but it cannot produce music unless you consider music to be a series of distorted notes with no timing.
SUTs are a disaster for amplification of LOMC’s. Transformers have non linearities, particularly with regard to phase accuracy and are prone to ringing, it is not possible for a SUT based phono system to accurately reproduce what is on the record correctly. Ringing muddies the sound and phase anomalies result is harmonics destroyed and sound stage distortions - the musical timing is lost. Even the much vaunted Jensen transformers have to resort to zobel networks to try and tidy these issues up. If you only listen to noise then by all means use a SUT, but it cannot produce music unless you consider music to be a series of distorted notes with no timing.
Damn, so how we should listen to 0,05mV Ortofon MC2000 cartridge then?
Without SUTs the volume on my amp turned at 12’oclock for late evening listening sessions, but it’s with 0.17mV Fidelity-Research PMC-3.
I don’t even tried to use my Ortofon MC2000 yet, i have this additional ZYX CPP-1 pre-preamp (headamp), but it was designed for 0,22mV cartridge. For the Ortofon MC2000 i was thinking about dedicated SUT :(
@chakster That is the million dollar question. I have an Ikeda Kiwame (0.15mv) & Dynavector Karat Nova 13D (0.12mv) and have tried many options over the years. Tubes - noisy but preserve timing Fets - grainy/opaque Transformers - low noise but act as tone controls, timing & coherency skewed
Most successful for me have been a custom head amp using bipolar devices and another unit custom designed specifically for a Highphonic cartridge ( 0.12mv ) using Burr Brown chips which are not available even to manufacturers ( they were research development chips for internal BB use only ). Both these units left my old Klyne System 7, Gryphon phono and many others for dust - grain free, transparent, ultra low noise floor. For LOMC cartridges 0.3mv and up its pure tube for me ( at 47k ) unless I need the extra gain. To be fair I have not heard current state of the art from Pass, Trinity etc so can’t comment whats currently available at that level. In general, in my view, many reviews of LOMC’s more reflect the phono stage than the actual cartridge as really exceptional phono stages are few and far between.
@nandric Not so, no holy water consumed prior, but yes we do produce some world class wines. You are no doubt aware that your fellow countrymen contributed greatly to our wine industry following the migrations for the gold rush in the 1800's and later mass migration from europe after the ravages of WW2. If you line up multiple phono stages in the same system of each type you will quickly recognise what I have described.
I don't know who is Arthur Salvatore, but this man tested many SUTs and posted on his website about it. He was a Koetsu dealer for 10 years. There are only a few SUTs in his "class A" category and his favorite is
Bent Silver TX-103, my ZYX CPP-1 active headamp is the first in his "Class B" category and described as very close. He said: " For those audiophiles who don't like any MC transformer, for whatever reason(s), the ZYX is a no-brainer choice, if it's affordable."
If I remeber well you mentioned your ZYX CPP-1 at least 5 times
(grin).
Few times, yes, but seems like i’m still the only one owner here on audiogon. That’s why i always remember A.Salvatore.
When i did my search for "Denon AU-S1" on audiogon, i saw at leat 25 posts of yourself, so i hope you’re very happy about this SUT, lol Another person who mentioned this was Raul, but only few times. BTW, correction: the impedance range of AU-S1 is not 2 - 40 Ohm, but 3 - 40 Ohm. And why i remember Salvator again is because his favorite Bent Silver SUT has similar construction (with direct connection to the transformer for each channel), but without the cabinet.
Anyway the ZYX CPP-1 is not a SUT, but an active headamp, and considering Dover’s post (to avoid all the SUTs) i decided to remind about this device, hoping somebody else experienced with this, except Arthur Salvatore (ex Koetsu dealer) who rated it so high.
Well, i have transformers inside my WLM Phonata Reference MM/MC phono stage, but unfortunately this stage is also unknown to the members here. The construction of the stage is also unusual as it has "automatic load imedance for any cartridges" (not fixed load imedance like on most of the mc stages). Those transformers are very small, must be lundahl transformers, i screwed up my device when i changed 47k resistors for MM input (to vishay naked foil 100k).
I wish i could try more SUTs, because the gain on my MC stage is not enough for 0,05mV Ortofon MC 2000, but OK for 0,17mV FR PMC-3 as i said earlier.
And as the oppisite to the SUTs i have those headamp and additional JLTi phono stage with "high gain" to handle 0,20mV carts (not not high enough for 0,05mV carts like MC2000).
So it’s not the point to praise zyx headamp, but just a curiosity what is better and why. For some reason (for the first time) i have hum when i use zyx with FR PMC-3, but when i use same cartridge with my WLM MC phono stage (with build in transformers) i have no hum.
I’m gonna continue my experiments with everything (SUTs, headamps, and high gain prono stages with plug in load resistors). At the moment i can’t say what is better. Sadly no one use the same gear here.
What i don't like about those external devices is that i need more cables and those cables must be top quality to avoid hum. Some cables what works fine for MM carts does not good for low output MC carts.
I’ve come across @rauliruegas post from 2013 and his list of tested SUTs looks impressive (see below):
Dear Dover/friends: Maybe any one could ask: why me that always is against SUTs wants to test it again?.
Well, the at random finding at my place of those SUTs give me the opportunity to test it and to make something that I never try it: the SUT up to date.
I owned and heard a lot of SUTs in my system and in other systems.
I can remember some of them. From Audio Technica: At630, AT7000, AT1000, etc. from Ortofon: T30, T2000,T3000,T5000,etc. Luxman 8020/8030. Denon 320,HA1000, Pionner headamp. Two different Audio Note Kondo’s. Expressive Technologies. Highphonic. Dynavector DV6 ( or something. Classe NIL3 headamp. I owned 2-3 vintage SUT’s by USA designers that I can´t remember. Bent Audio and many many more.
In no one but the NIL3 I made any single up date.
-Raul
This Classe NIL3 is also in Arthur Salvator’s list, it’s funny @nandric but Raul’s farovite Classe N.I.L. headam was creamed by ZYX headamp in Salvator’s tests :)
A.Salvator said: "The Classe was the finest solid-state "head amplifier" ever made (until the ZYX CPP-1)." http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Step-ups.html So i think Raul should try CPP-1, lol
Maybe i already have one of the best headamps, who knows.
The Audio-Technica AT1000T and AT300T, Denon AU-1s and Ortofon T2000 were in my wantlist for some of my LOMC, never tried them yet.
How does Koetsu Black (wood body) compare with Koetsu Black Goldline (Aluminium body)? Same price in the UK, different spec, but it would interest me to know their characters if anyone can help?
I don't have much experience with Koetsu, but I can report my RSP is breaking in VERY nicely. I took a leap of faith and I'm very happy. Out of the box, it sounded very similar to my previous cartridge (Clearaudio Maestro MM). I'm about 20 hours into running in the RSP, and the richness has appeared, so has the bloom and frequency extremes. I hear and feel the Koetsu charm and spell.
Hi James. I too have been enjoying an RSP since last May. I can tell you that it continues to get better! I use a PASS XP-15 as a phono preamp at the medium gain setting and 100 Ohm loading. To the original posters point, I don’t know if this is the sweet spot in the line, but it is hard to imagine something more correct and enjoyable than this cartridge.
How does Koetsu Black (wood body) compare with Koetsu Black Goldline (Aluminium body)? Same price in the UK, different spec, but it would interest me to know their characters if anyone can help?
Rgds, Paul
I have owned the Black, and Black Gold Line, and as far as I remember, they both had aluminium bodies. That was a long time ago, almost 30 years. I recently heard the Black Gold Line again, and I consider it a very good cartridge. Fast, dynamic, and on the warm side.
I'm using the tonearm that came with my Technics SL1210MG5 with a KAB fluid damper attached. I've loaded the tonearm with mass so that I've achieved a resonant frequency of 11Hz which helped quite a bit with tracking and better bass. Tracking force is set to 1.92 grams.
Do you know what resonant frequency you have achieved with your RSP? I'm curious if I should go lower to the optimal 10Hz?
Hard to answer that if it is sounding so good! I use a Fidelity Research FR-64S which has an effective mass of 35 grams. I am currently using a Jelco-Rosewood headshell at 16.7 grams. I would assume that the resonance Hz is below ideal, but this combo won't even fit on the vinyl engine calculator. Might have to try a lighter headshell for fun.
I'm using the HiFi News Analogue Test LP to measure resonant frequency: side 2, track 2. If you are curious to see how your setup measures. It's an audible/visual test.
I have an Audio-technica AT-LH 18, 18 gram head shell coming in soon, I will use that, and recalibrate to see if I can make the optimal 9Hz - 10Hz frequency.
I own a Koetsu Urushi. Which I like. Unlike other cartridges in the Koetsu line below the level of the "stone body" Koetsu's, the Urushi has some low bass and extreme treble. Otherwise, the Koetsu sound is a midrange sound, once again excepting the stone-body ones. The Urushi is not a super low output cartridge; output is either 0.4 mV or 0.6mV, depending upon the stylus velocity at which you measure the output. Syntax, an occasional acerbic commentator on this forum, used to hate Koetsu cartridges and never missed an opportunity to insult the brand. But then I think he got hold of a stone-body Koetsu and fell in love. Either that or I am falling for his sense of irony. Use a high mass tonearm.
The argument about SUTs or not to use a SUT or what is the best SUT is eternal in audio. The subject is actually rather boring. Try one and see if you like it, is my advice. My phono stage (Atma-sphere MP1) has been modified by me in a way that greatly increases its gain. Thus I can handle the output of even an MC2000 with much headroom to spare and dead silence. But I would like to try the T2000 SUT made by Ortofon for the MC2000, just to see if it is a match made in heaven or whether Dover is right. One or the other.
Someone characterized low output cartridges as those having an output of less than 1.0mV. That sort of value is more typical of a HOMC; many preamps can handle that much output with ease.
James1969, I wouldn't tie myself in knots to go from 11Hz to 10Hz, unless you hear symptoms of a problem. If that is the case, I would shoot for 8Hz. But I ascribe to the notion that if it sounds good, it IS good. Did you measure 11Hz or are you estimating it by calculation? The latter method is fraught with possibilities for error.
@lewm, James, & Karl, And everyone else for that matter- This has all been enormously helpful. I do not have the opportunity to audition hardly any of my purchases. And yet I've been very fortunate to have assembled good sounding systems by way of thorough research and "sound" judgment. Thanks again
lewm, I'm not too worried about 1Hz really, I'm using the HiFi News Analogue Test LP to measure resonant frequency. I'm not hearing any issues what so ever, what I hear is making me very happy with my choice.
dancekerl, good luck with your decision, please let us know where you land. The Koetsu experience is real.
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