klipsch speakers,be honest

But Wolf how do I get my 40 year old heresys to sound short fat and fabulous now! Can I believe that they are my first speakers and they are actually more than 40 OY.

The Heresy IIIs are generally dismissed by people who haven't heard them with good ancillary gear, or had the older models 40 years ago. The only caveat is possibly the need for a sub with these as that makes 'em open up and really shine, but the overall tonal response they do produce down to 58hz or so is very coherent and clean. 1500 bucks for the "Capitol Records Anniversary" version was a steal maybe, but you have to admit there's nothing like these out there...short, fat, and fabulous.

I have owned a number of speakers over the past 35 years or so, always looking for the "perfect" sound.  Floor standers, monitors with subs, all very good.  PSB Platinum , several KEF both floorstanders and stand mount , Paradigm Studios, Revel 106, all nice , but no speaker has put a smile on my face or felt more like live music like my Heresy III except maybe the CF 4 I had 20 years ago.   Unfortunately those were just too big and honestly I like the signature of the Heresy better.  

I know there are a lot of Klipsch haters out there but I think the Heresy are solid value compared to a lot of what's out there .  They are paired with a c-j pre and Quicksilver Mid Monos which are 40 watts and it sounds REALLY good,  excellent live recordings sound just that, live.   

As I have said many times on other threads, Klipsch, the Heritage line designed by PWK himself, were made with a price point, and, were made for tubes initially. When early ss came about, many folks were pairing the early Klipsch with monster ss amps, having 12, 16, 24 output transistors per channel, that did not compliment the speakers. Every speaker ever made, could have been improved, not just Klipsch. At their price point ( old and new ), the Heritage speakers are great for the money. Even the new ones, as wolf has mentioned, can be improved, even if the improvements results in less than 10 % ( btw, I was the peer pressure, but wolf was embarrassed to say so, as I am known to be crazy, with my tweaks, upgrades and modifications ). Look at any speaker out there. Better crossover components alone can be improved, all because of the price point in the initial design. If Klipsch are not the choice of the  ( horns in general ), it is ok. There are many choices, and many different sets of ears. Enjoy ! MrD.

I have to comment. I have Klipsch Forte I with Crites x-overs and Ti tweeter diaphragms.  But the reoccurring theme on any forum discussing them seems to be "1. Modify, rebuilt or build your own cabinets from scratch, 2. Get newer, better drivers, 3. Dampen the horns, 4. Get newly designed crossovers and viola' they sound great and anyone who does not like how they sound don't know how to set them up properly.   

Well if you have to CHANGE them this much for them to be satisfactory, doesn't that suggest they aren't that great in stock form?   Heck any speaker can be great if you totally change them to your liking. 

I’ve heard several recent models recently and latest models are very good products overall and could make a lot of people happy including most likely me.

Have not heard any older models in recent years but the consensus seems to be those often need tweaks to compete with more modern designs, as is the case probably for many vintage speaker designs out there.

Klipsch has been around a long time so not reasonable to compare 50+ year old speakers to modern equivalents.

Voice of many theaters, and I have no idea what Klipschorns sounded like then (or currently) as nobody I knew had them. The pro version of the Klipsch apparently had the tweeter, which could have helped the Altecs somewhat maybe...the A7s were very "woody" sounding with a 900hz or so crossover which meant that horn had a really wide range...not sure if ours had phase plugs, or at least I never noticed one when replacing the horn diaphragms. They were likely 1970 or 71ish versions.

Wolf weren't told as a child that everyone is special.Are Altec 7s the VOTT with those big multi cellular horns? I  wanted those years ago, but not now.  I could have put them or Klipschorns in my basement where my LaScalas were. Where my main system was.

I'm glad I'm not the only person using the word "obviating." And I bristle at comments relative to musical style driving speaker preference... "Also remember orchestral and classical music which was more dominant at that time, which made different demands on speakers." No it didn't (make sound specific demands), and no it doesn't now, although I would imagine more financially successful classical (and jazz) freaks back in the day were more likely to have the money and space to buy gigantic folded horn cabinets for their parlors. Klipschorns and Altecs were dominant in movie theaters and concert halls...I had a pair of Altec A7s used for my band PA that were amazing when used for stereo things here and there (rarely) but were just too big for all but the grandest of homes. I once leant those to Loggins and Messina when we opened for them as they hadn't brought their "side fill" speakers to Hawaii for some reason (Clair Brothers were to blame)...that has nothing to do with this topic, but I threw it in anyway as it makes me feel "special."

In Wolf's defense he is talking about the Heresy III.  I own the original Heresys (2 pair no less) and the bass clearly rolls off at the published 50 Hz +- 5Db. From a long time owner (since 1976) I always thought the bass could benefit from reinforcement, I can understand employing a subwoofer.
The Klipschorn however has a 20Hz bass frequency response, obviating the need for any bass reinforcement.

Tatum

Klipschorns = no subwoofer need apply. If you don't agree, you've either never heard them in the right room, or never heard them at all.

My guess is the latter.

Oz

The mid horns in Heresy IIIs are smooth and accurate as long as clean amps are driving them. The 12" woofers in these may be "short throw" only because they're designed for impact to 58hz only...my "long throw" subs add the throwiness component to the party, as long as nothing gets thrown at me.

People have talked about putting mutes in the mid horn. I doubt that’s is better than a better crossover or improving the bass driver so that it is a longer throw driver.I get similar bass with my 1950s JBLs they are both short throw. In their day that was SOTA now it is wanting. If you want to maintain the sound that these things have you have to change your expectations. Also remember orchestral and classical music which was more dominant at that time, which made different demands on speakers.

Are you being honest? Heh heh...By the way, my Heresy IIIs cost just under 1500 bucks shipped (list for these Capitol Editions is 2500), and I already owned the subs. I put stick-on Dynamat damping material on the mid horn due to intense peer pressure (you know who you are!). It may have made them sound better, and it gave me a weird project cutting up this gooey stuff into exact fitting pieces...little horn braces on the things with small curved surfaces...fiddly but hey...it improved my Klipsch tweak credibility by exactly 8.3%.

I recently bought KH AK5.
My first listening was in the early 80's and I was pretty impressed.
The AK5 are simply a revelation to me.
When properly setup, the music just becomes a miracle.
These are the best speakers I have ever heard so far. At any price.

I've owned a lot of speakers over many decades, and I bought a pair of Heresy IIIs last year and and found that they're amazing sounding fat little speakers...who knew?...they need a sub, but so what? A bargain.

They are good speakers like many others but different mainly more sensitive. Just feed and set them up right.

Klipsch = huge cabinets with large woofers that still somehow manage to need a subwoofer for any real bass. Oh, and flea watt tubes to tame the rising treble that people misunderstand for detail. So many better speaker choices out there

Put acoustic foam in the cabinet to increase bass response and stuff a small bit in the throats of the mid horn to tame minds.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have a clue about horns. And judging from his post history, I'd say I am correct.

Oz

Never play with the inside of the throat of the mid horn. There are other ways to tame the mids. Really ? You do not want to get me started.............Enjoy ! MrD.

Put acoustic foam in the cabinet to increase bass response and stuff a small bit in the throats of the mid horn to tame minds.

Well, they do need to be managed in the very least.  I would guess that some of the success of the guys who make improved crossovers is warrranted.  A couple of these modders have gone on to develop a better "Klipsch" altogether.  I own 2 pair of Heresys, I should probably use the newly acquired set as experiment subjects.  I would like a different bass response and for the midrange to be more recessed etc.A low power all class A power amp might be best.

Klipsch speakers can sound magical, but you need to achieve synergy of all components in the audio chain. With the wrong electronics, it can be a disaster. Trying out is the message, whether solid state or tube amps.

Trippin,

After years with JBL's I now have Klipschors, Belles, Heresys and an Academy. I have been on the Klipsch forum for about 4 years now and have modded my system and K Horns. They are great speakers but you, as you know, need to have a good source and amplification, as well as crossovers.

I started with a Scott LK-48 tube amp. This worked very well. I added ALK's that I built myself. I also built "false corners" for the K Horns because "perfect corners" are hard to come by. I also switch back and forth between an AH! upsampled Tubed CD player (with Amperex PQ's) and a Toshiba 3950 transport and Benchmark DAC1.

I now use a Juicy Music Peach Preamp (with Amperex pinched waist tube) and have the K Horns Tri-amped with a Yamaha D2040 divider network and a QSC 1202 power amp for woofer and two Teac L700P's for the mids and tweeters. This budget amplification mates very well with the horns, especially with the tube preamp. No harshness, tons of detail and great imaging. I love when people come over and I put on some Neil Young accoustic and ask where the speaker is. They respond "behind the TV." The speakers really do dissappear.

The drivers in Klipsch are budget and I am seling the K Horns because mine are very rare (less than 6 pairs in tigerwood were made) and I don't want to hack them up. I am switching to factory built Speakerlab bass bins and woofers, JBL 2470 compression midrange drivers with Altec 511b horns, and JBL 2404 "baby cheek" tweeters with the same divider network and amps. This should be my "ultimate setup." I got a ton of help from the folks over at the Klipsch forum.

For you, I would suggest contacting Bob Crites and having a set of Type AA crossovers built. They are relatively cheap (under $300) and have tweeter protection. The ALK's are more expensive and complex, but present a constant load to the amp. Check out ALKENG.com. Dean G also makes some nice crossovers. In my experience, for the price of the more exotic crossovers, an active crossover and tri-amplification was the ticket. I have steep crossover slopes (24 db), time alignment (remember, the woofer horn is 16 feet long and the mid is two feet)and serious tuning capabilities (parametric EQ, digital and analog attenuation).

As far as amps, the Klipsch engineering staff uses QSC PLX amps in their labs. These are Class AB amps and are very affordable. The PLX 1202 can be had for $600 new and has 200 wpc from 20 to 20K at low THD (vs a 1khz test tone). This thing is just plain clean power that mates very well with horns. I used it with my ALK's and it just worked so well. For years everyone on the Klipsch Forum recommended tube amps, then after a few of us took the plunge on the QSC's, it is now divided between SS and Tubes, but everyone seems to recommend tube preamps, especialy Juicy Music products.

Crown has a K1 (I think) that is similar to the QSC's but has no colling fan if fan noise is an issue. In your case, I don't think fan noise is a problem. I replaced the fan with a low flow unit.

I'm not sure what your budget is, but Juicy Music makes some great preamps that mate well. They use no feedback and have great detail and clarity. The Merlin can be had for about $600 new. This is an unbelieveable deal. The Peach and Blueberry are both between $1,000 and $2,000 and are both great deals for the money.

I suggest going to the Klipsch Forum to learn more about these speakers and upgrades. If you want very loud and clarity, the K Horns will definately do it for you. The nice thing about them is that because teh drivers are short throw and compression drivers, they really do not wear out. The only parts that need to be replaced are the caps in the crossovers.

Where are you getting your k horns from? Like I said, mine are for sale and are very rare and beautiful with Tigerwood finish.

Chris

Hi Bigjoe, I owned the Heresy's in the eighties, and while I liked the dynamic range and the bass, I never much cottoned to the midrange response or the timbre of the instruments or voice. I ran them with a CJ PV-5 tubed preamp and a carver amp at the time, and even after endlessly playing with placement and room treatment, they never "did it" for me.

Trippin:
I wrote to you in your other thread. I own La Scalas and Heresies and have been a Klipsch owner for 25 years. The best amplification is actually an amp that can move the big 15 inch folded horn woofer. So in despite the incredible SPLs you can get because of the powerful midrange horns with low power amps and I have heard them sound decent with 2A3 SETs, you really get your best sound if you give a wit about controling the bass, with fairly powerful SS amps. There have been several threads on this topic. Believe it or not Mac amps synergize well with these speakers ask Big Joe. I have used Mac and ARC SS amps with good results. Tubes would be fine but the impedance curve of those woofers with the old crossovers are tough on the tubes. (you can get modded x-overs which supposedly make it much easier to drive the woofer properly). Try it for yourself you'll see what I mean. In either case they are capable of being truly Loud Speakers.

I am no audiophile expert - but i do care immeasurably for music and strive to present it in its most natural form within my dancespace. I am considering purchasing a pair of Khorns for use in a 10m square room - concrete floor and walls - the space is a dance space and high volume is essential...clarity taking precedence over bass extension.

I would be very grateful to anyone who could confirm that these are the same model Klipsch that David Mancuso & Alex Rosner used at the legendary 'Loft' in NYC during the 70s/80s.

I would also be very grateful to anyone willing to give me advice in terms of amplification: I am considering restoring a couple of giant Manley Monoblocs (i need to purchase the valves)

many thanks - Dominic (London)

I've been enjoying the above discourse regarding Klipsh tweaks; I also lost all of my PC files in that regard, so this review is a nice catchup.
One very basic issue that hasn't yet been mentioned is the installation of cones/spikes. Spiking the cabinets to my concrete floor provided the typical improvements that most speakers exhibit from spiking: especially notable were improvements in overall clarity & bass definition of my Belles. I have the BBC MKII threaded brass cones.

I had a dealer who had a pair of Cornwalls he said he could not sell...really! So I told him to bring in a Jolida JD1000 el34 100wpc tube integrated to mate with it. He sold the system within a week. Just about any of the old K's were...are great. I know small is in, but reality is that cabinet volume does work well when properly engineered.

Thanks for the info Howard. Sean
>

Sean,
Here's a link to one of Bob's creations. You can write him, and he will send photos with an explanation of the process. I don't think he has a web site, but I'm not certain about that.

I use his crossovers on my La Scala's, and they sound tonally like the originals, but the mids/highs project notably better.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14993&item=5753603889&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Howard

Boa: Do you have a website for this product? Sean
>

Happily, Fishboat. I'll have to take a drive
up to Tahoe and get a listen when he has them
assembled. He will be using them with both a Cary
300B SEI and a Yamamoto 45 SET amp. He also has a factory
modded Audio Aero Capitole MKII. Darn nice system, really. I'll let you know when I get a chance to hear them.
Have a great weekend!

Boa,

Please report back with some thoughts after they're up and running.

Just to add to the discussion, there is a man named Bob Crites who can be found both on the Klipsch forums as well as selling replacement Klipsch crossovers (and other parts) on eBay. Bob has fabricated a cabinet and custom crossover for a speaker he calls the 'Cornscala'. Excuse me if this has already been covered somewhere in these threads.

With this speaker setup, you can either use the existing tweeter and horn from a La Scala, or buy them from him. The woofer is also forward, like that of the Cornwall. A friend of mine has just ordered the kit, so I haven't yet had the chance to hear it. I believe that you can get the cabinet, all of the drivers, and the crossover for under $1000. You end up with the mids of the La Scala and bass response down to 30Hz, and Bob claims that they sound pretty darn good.

It just never ends...

Marco/Sean,

Thanks for the thoughts. All the discussion about modding LaScalas makes me wish I still had mine, but they've been gone nye-twenty years now. I'm guessing Marco is pondering his LaScalas at this point ("...I love what I have....but what if.... :-)

Sean's descriptions come pretty close to what I heard in my recent setup & thus my interest in any tweaks. I'll drop into the Klipsch site for some hints & weigh my options. With regard to the Chorus at least, it does sound as if the potential for significant improvement is limited. If/when I get into a new place I may take a "stock or block" approach....either they sound good (in a new room with a little treatment) in a stock form or they go on the block. It's not like these things are family hierlooms... :-)

Marco: Take the top off of your La Scala's, pull the horns & crossovers and then open up the woofer chamber. In the long run, you're going to leave this open and seal the rear of the horn chamber that used to be open. You may have to do some fabrication in terms of a partial plate where the original woofer hatch was, but this drastically increases the bass chamber volume. That tiny bass chamber is what raises the resonant frequency of the driver, limiting bass extension.

Once all that is done, fill what is now the shared bass / horn chamber with fiberglass. This will also increase apparent box volume AND damp the vibration of the horn bodies even further. Altering the amount and type of fiberglass used will change the Q of the system, but 2 lbs per cubic foot is typically a good place to start with any sealed and stuffed design. Don't forget to take into account the internal volume lost from the horn bodies and crossover boards when trying to factor the actual weight to use.

You might find that you like slightly less than 2 lbs per cubic foot, which is easy to deal with. I think that i ended up with about 1.7 lbs per cubic foot or so when all was said and done. At 2 lbs, the chamber is absolutely crammed full to the point of over-flowing. At 1.7 lbs, it is still VERY full, but not billowing out quite as badly.

The end result is that you lower the resonance of the system by appr 12 - 15 Hz, which is quite a bit. The Q is lowered from appr .85 down to appr .57 or so, which is a phenomenal gain. This reduces the peak at resonance for more control AND at the same time, improves transient response. The peak at impedance is also reduced, increasing power transfer from the amp to the woofer where it needs it the most. In many other attempts to increase bass extension via increasing the Q, "speed", "control" and "definition" are sacrificed, but not with this approach. Low Q with a good design is a "win, win, win" situation.

Due to the lower peak at resonance via the reduced Q, the bass is also now more extended. That is, you can either get greater apparent bass with less control ( like a vented design or the stock Klipsch high Q design ) or more control and greater extension ( like a "good" low Q sealed design ). We are opting for the latter, which is what i've always promoted in previous posts. This ends up giving us appr +4 to +5 dB's at 30 Hz compared to the stock La Scala.

While reducing the resonant frequency by 12 - 15 Hz definitely improves bass extension, that added +4.5 dB's REALLY improves bass solidity and "thunder". We've now got REAL deep bass without near as much "false" upper bass and the "snap" of the bass has been improved.

To sum things up, you end up with a completely different speaker that is far superior in every respect. Greater bass extension, improved transient response and more bass "weight" without introducing gobs more distortion or losing impact or definition. The really cool thing about this is that everything is 100% reversible with no signs of external cosmetic modifications if done properly.

Outside of doing this and the basic horn damping / crossover mods / wiring changes / removal of the screens within the horn throats, one has to get into doing MAJOR bass horn modifications to go to the next level of performance.

It is my opinion that it is easier to build new cabinets from scratch than it is to try and modify the existing bass horn for improved performance. While doing that, one could factor in front mounted horns for reduced diffraction as compared to the factory rear mounted design. They could also build a larger ( taller ) low frequency section, improving the extension due to having a larger horn mouth without eating up more cubic floor space. Radiusing the bends inside the bass horns is a huge benefit, minimizing standing waves ( muddy lower midrange / upper bass ) even further.

Some of the muddiness in the lower mid / upper bass can be reduced in the stock design by bracing the outer cabinet walls to the "V" of the bass chamber, but this may introduce introduce non-reversible cosmetic changes to the cabinet. If done tastefully though, you can't tell that the braces aren't stock and the sonic benefits far outweigh the small cosmetic drawbacks. One can temporarily do something like this by carefully wedging a form fitting piece of wood between the "V" and the outer walls without permanently attaching it. The use of felt between the contacting areas will minimize the potential for any scratches to take place. To be honest here, and that's what this thread is about, most of the vintage Klipsch cabinets are poorly built and designed from a performance standpoint. From a mass production standpoint, they are engineering marvels. Sean
>

PS.... Some of the facts & figures quoted are strictly ballpark. Due to the tolerances on the mass produced drivers that Klipsch used, each woofer will respond just a hair differently than others. Following the basic guidelines as listed above though will DEFINITELY improve the performance of the system on the whole, regardless of the absolute accuracy of any individual spec's quoted.

PPS...Much of what i learned about Klipsch's came from personal experimentation. Another great source that really helped me, on La Scala's in particular, is Dennis Kleitsch. You can find some of his posts at AA in the "high efficiency" Asylum and at the Klipsch forums under the name of djk ( all small letters if doing a search by author ). Dennis is truly a wizard when working with these and other horn loaded speakers.

Ah, yes, Sean's post (thanks Sean) reminded me of the one modification I did leave out: The outside of my metal horn is covered in dampening material purchased at PartsExpress. This is the stuff they use to dampen the inside of the doors of automobiles. Dynamat is the more expensive version of a the similar stuff. Works wonders on the 'ringing' horn syndrome he Sean mentions.

There is a forum section over at Klipsch.com where much of this stuff is discussed ad nauseum. A source of some good information (as well as misinformation just as any Internet source) if you care to sift through the archives. There is another tweeter made by a Spanish manufacturer that has very close curves and sensitivity to the stock EV T35/Klipsch K77. Many folks over there have been delighted with this as a drop-in replacement. Can't recall the brand, but a quick search over there oughta find it. I believe AlK also endorses this particular tweater, and certainly the potential for improvement, in posts on that site.

Of course little of this applies to your Chorus speakers since they do not use the same tweeter and the tractrix horns are plastic. I'd have to agree about sealing the cabinets better. I did that on my Heresy's by replacing the back with thicker MDF and adding sealent around the perimiter of all the drivers. It made an audible improvement in the bass response and tightness. I think in your case the cabinet only has the driver openings to improve the seal. You can purchase a caulking material to seal around the drivers better as an option to felt. Again, PartsExpress, or any speaker-building supply should have this stuff and it is cheap.

Sean, thanks for the tip on dampening the Solens. I'll give that a try, although I am delighted with the sound of my speakers right now. The only place I'd like to improve them is in the bass region. I did seal up the box at the bottom better, and around the bass driver. I've been toying with the idea of building a forward-firing bass cabinet and creating an arrangement more like the Oris and Avantegarde. Still, since I'm not really a bass freak it may be a long time before I do this. It is certainly not a glaring fault.

Fishboat- in addition to Sean's good advice, search the forums over at Klipsch to see if you can come up with more Chorus-specific advice.

Marco

My experiences with anything but the "vintage" Klipsch models is less than enthusiastic and even the "vintage" models need a LOT of help in my opinion.

The main things that the "vintage" models have going for them is that they are very simple designs that utilize sealed cabinets, which are almost "fool proof" in terms of working with. The newer models utilize lower grade parts in the crossovers and you have to deal with the various bass alignments used in a vented design.

As a side note, the older models weren't so much "bright" as they were "ringy" due to the metal horns resonating like mad. The newer models ARE "bright" and the plastic horn bodies tend to have a very specific albeit "forward" upper midrange sound to them. On top of that, the passive radiators are tuned to produce a large peak in the bass, which reduces transient response and definition. In effect, you end up with a speaker that is bloated on the bottom, thick in the warmth region, forward in the mids and piercing in the treble. In effect, you ended up with a Klipsch speaker that sounded more like a Cerwin-Vega. Both are LOUDspeakers that can rock & roll, but lack any type of finesse and refinement. When driven hard, these newer speakers just sound flat out "abrasive" to me. How do you fix this? It's called a LOT of work.

Probably the easiest things to do that are completely reversible would be to buy a bag or two of polyester fiberfil at your local Wal-Mart ( $2 per bag ) and play with the amount of stuffing in each cabinet. By varying the density of stuffing within the cabinet, you can fine tune the bass response to your liking. Just make sure that any stuffing that you add to the box does NOT interfere with the movement of any of the drivers.

The next thing to do would be to cover the baffle area surrounding the horns with felt. You can pick up enough felt and some "temporary double sided hem tape" at your local fabric shop for about $10. Not only will this help to tame the peaky response of the upper mids and treble region, imaging should improve. You might end up losing a bit of the "snap" or "jump factor" on horns and / or cymbals, so experiment with how much felt you use.

Personally, i would probably felt the entire baffle on these myself, but others may find this to sound TOO subdued. I know that at least one guy posted over on AA that Heresy's as modified as i suggested ended up sounding "dark" to him. Then again, he was used to years and years worth of "ringing" in his system and going to a more natural, less resonant presentation may have sounded "flat & dull" to him. That's why i said start with the simple and easily reversible stuff for now and see how you like the initial results.

As to the ALK crossovers, i've never used them but i have seen them. They make use of Solen cap's, which are not bad so long as you keep the leads as short as possible and damp them where they enter the body of the cap. Something along the lines of "blu-tak" or "fun-tak" can work wonders here. If you don't do this, the caps will ring and sound bright. The cap bodies themselves are so lightweight that the solid core metal leads become microphonic, causing the cap body to resonate. By damping the leads where they enter the body of the cap, you damp & decouple any ringing that the lead picks up before it can excite the body of the cap. If you doubt this, hold a Solen ( or other similar cap ) at he far end of one lead with your fingertips and "flick" the other lead with your finger. You won't believe how much and how long the cap vibrates once you "flick" the leg. Nor will you believe how loud the leg rings. In this respect, the original Klipsch's used paper in oil caps, which are somewhat self-damping to begin with. In this respect, the stock caps aren't bad in the older models and may sound more natural than newer caps that are poorly implimented.

The ALK's also make use of Solen Litz wound coils which are of a stranded design. Personally, i think that stranded wire is typically a step backwards in performance from a well chosen solid wire or a foil conductor. This is strictly a matter of personal preference though and some would debate the viability and cost effectiveness of other approaches.

As a side note, Audio Xpress had a recent article about the ElectroVoice T35 tweeters as used in the vintage Klipsch models. In this article, they show graphs and response curves of this tweeter, demonstrating how limited in bandwidth it really was and that it had a noticeable peak at appr 11 - 12 KHz falling off rapidly above that.

The author of the article ended up replacing his T35's as found in his K-Horns with some JBL's and the differences were like night and day according to what was published. I would not doubt that Marco's Fane swap provided much the same type of results. Personally, I'm using some $6 tweeters that are easily superior to the EV's in every way, shape and form. Only problem is, these $6 tweeters are now discontinued :( Sean
>

PS... You guys aren't helping me any. I'm trying to stay off of the forums and get some other things done!!!

Fishboat - sounds like the Snell's are a better match overall for your system/room as it stands now. I don't have any experience with Snells, so can't comment beyond that as far as comparisons go. I would've thought the Chorus put out more bass than the Forte's from their larger size. Don't they also have the passive woofer firing to the rear (as do the Fortes)? The Fortes would not be my choice for the music I love most (acoustic, vocals, strings, small-scale classical arrangements). The larger Klipsch speakers that Paul designed have a more 'refined' sound to my ear, which comes out mostly in the midrange. The newer designs using the Tractrix horn and large, forward-firing woofers are more of a rockin' out speaker IMO, and I've moved on from that kind of music to where it is only a very small portion of what I enjoy. I believe their current designs use similar architecture, the few of those I've heard have not impressed me at all. Again, no direct experience with the Chorus to share. Perhaps Sean can be of some help here (?).

Marco

Jax,
The fatigue for me is the mid to top end of things. The horns seem to be in my face too much. The bass in the Fortes are lower than the Chorus, even though the Chorus runs a 15 inch woofer. The Chorus-I rolls off around 45 Hz(the Fortes go down to 32Hz). Actually the bass on the Chorus isn't that "big" unless their backs are against the wall & even then not large by any means.

Chorus I specs

I have played around with speaker placement & again this helped, but didn't eliminate the in your face aspect ("shouting" at me?) The room is fairly dead I think as it's carpeted and has too much (soon to go) over-stuffed furniture in it. I haven't done any room treatments yet as I'm just researching such things now. 3/4's of one wall is open above a half-wall to the kitchen. For comparison's sake...the Chorus were terrific on a very narrow slice of music styles (strings/harp/acoustics & female vocals) ..your El Cant De La Sibil La sounds wonderful...huge dynamics..however as soon as I switch to jazz..well..the speakers get shut down. Compare this to the Snells and, while the sound has a different 'feel' to it, all types of music sound very good & non-fatiguing. Soundstage & imaging has definitely improved..a lot...the speakers completely disappear. Bass is much better. Cymballs are smooth & shimmer...not 'loud' (as they were with the Chorus, even at lower volumes). All this with the Snells in the same room, basically the same position as the Chorus were (~5 feet off the back wall & ~3 feet off the side walls), and my listening position in the same place....though I've moved things around to sort of come back to where I started.

I picked up the Snell E-IV's as I got a good price on them & they were local. A friend has the CV Snells & they're very easy to listen to while sounding very good. With the new equipment I 'needed' something to listen to so I took a flyer on the E IV's. The Snells are not the end of the road by any means, but at least I have a nice-sounding and listenable system until I figure out what's next.

I may be looking for a different house before long. I figured I keep the Chorus as one never knows what type of room I'll get into & how they will sound. Naturally, if I can work through any well-found tweaks on them in the mean time, so much the better.

I think Klipsch got a bad rap from what is mentioned above. (Improper System Matching)In the audiophile community you will see brows wrinkle when Klipsch Speakers are brought up. Most of these opinions were formed hearing Klipsch speakers hooked up up to an Adcom Stack in a hi fi store or hearing a pair of Heresey Pros in a club being played ear bleedingly LOUD. I always hear people say, yea, those Klipsch sure are BRIGHT!

When paired with a tube amp and the right setup, they can sound great!

Hey Fishboat - The closest experience I have with the Chorus speakers is with their smaler cousins, the Fortes. These speakers use the Tractrix horns and forward firing bass drivers, so are quite different from my LaScalas. I did enjoy the Fortes as great speakers for rockin' out. In a smaller room I wonder if the Chorus aren't giving you problems with bass-loading the room? They do put out a significant low end if they are anything like the Fortes. You may try fiddling with speaker position and room treatments to address that. Doesn't have to be proprietary treatments, you can use things like curtains, rugs and plants to help. The 'fatigue' I mentioned only happened with the ALK crossovers in a smaller room and had more to do with the mids and highs than the bass. Your Chorus speakers produced significantly lower bass than my Scalas do. As far as 'surgery' on the speakers themselves, without any direct experience I'd be at a loss to give you specific advice. From experience with many other Klipsch products of that era and earlier I'd guess swapping out the wiring harness with better wires and reinforcing the cabinets would be at the top of my list of where to start. But honestly I'd try addressing the room first if listening fatigue is the problem. As you know, I certainly do prefer tubes to SS with the vintage Klipsch products so I'm not at all surprised that step was, as you say, a significant improvement.

Marco

Jax,
We traded a few posts & emails a month or two ago as I was trying to improve the sound of my Chorus I's. Since then the SS equipment is gone and replaced with all tube from the CDP through power. Tubes made a BIG improvement in the sound of the Chorus speakers, but I still suffered from listening fatigue. Like you, I think it has a lot to do with the relatively small room (13.5 x 18 x 8). For the time being I've jumped into a nice pair of Snell's that are very easy to listen to, sound great, and quite different from the Klipsch Chorus. But...I haven't given up on the Chorus I's yet.

Sean/Jax,

Any specific suggestions to improve the Chorus I's? For the time being they are out of my system & available for some surgery. I have no plans to get rid of them in the foreseeable future as they would probably be a good option to try out with a SET system of some sort. It sounds like they might be ripe for some tweaking...

I can confirm first-hand just about all the points that Sean makes regarding the vintage Klipsch. My LaScala's have improved significantly with modifications Sean mentions. The only thing I have not done is rebuild the bass cabinet, and that is the only area I feel the speakers are currently lacking (bass currently takes a nose dive at 50hz). Here's my take on the improvements I've done:

Internal wiring harness: Replaced with DH Labs silver wires - a noticeable difference in clarity and detail. The stock harness is simple 16 ga. copper wires.

Swapped out the stock tweeter with Fane 5020 - this made a HUGE difference in the upper register bringing out details I'd never heard on these speakers before, making the entire range sounded more coherent, and musical. These tweeters required padding down as their 110db sensitivity is too hot as-is. Of the modifications I've done, this one certainly made the most significant difference to me.

Replaced stock AA crossover with ALK's crossover. Here's where I'd take some exception to this as a 'rule' for guaranteed improvement. In my much smaller listening room at home I preferred the 'softer' and more dimensional sound of the stock AA crossovers. Though the ALK's exhibited more clarity and focus, and were imediately recognizable as an audible difference, I still liked the AA's better in this space. I tried all different settings with the ALK's and swapped back and forth for many days and sessions. I ended up sticking with the AA's as they just sounded more dimensional and natural to me. It reminded me of the difference between a 'tubey' sound and an SS sound, the later being the ALK. Later I moved my LaScala's to a much larger listening room (my work space) where they had room to breath. Here in this space the ALK's won hands down delivering both laser focus, clarity and the width and breadth of soundstage they seemed not to in the smaller space. I think perhaps there was some element of 'fatigue' in the smaller space that just doesn't occur in the larger one with the ALK's. The soundstage seemed to equal that of the AA's in the larger space, whereas in the smaller space the AA's seemed to provide a wider and deeper stage. I'll leave that one to Sean to try to explain as I was baffled.

I have no doubt the bass could be improved as well, and the cabinet is merely adequate in construction (as far as speaker cabinets are concerned) and stands for much improvement in reinforcement to assist in this realm.

Still, the clarity, the transparency and the speed of these speakers in my system, to my ears, has kept me spoiled in a sense as everything else I listen to falls short somehow. Granted, this is only a personal preference, and I certainly have not heard all there is to hear.

Anyway, good advice by Sean!

Marco

I was refering to La Scala's primarily, but the comments apply to any of the "vintage" series Klipsch units in one way, shape or form. Obviously, the smaller non-horn woofer designed Heresy's and Cornwall's would have to be handled differently, but they too can be drastically improved.

All of my detailed Klipsch notes were lost in a computer crash. If you've got specific questions, i can remember quite a bit of it in my head. Drop me an email and i'll do what i can to "reproduce the data" : ) Sean
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Sean, you are referring to the K-horns I suppose? I'd be interested in any refs you have regarding these moifications... Cheers

It's too bad that Villchur and Klipsch didn't work together and solve their differences. We would have had a highly linear speaker that was phenomenally efficient with great dynamics.

I've got both "vintage" Klipsch and "vintage" AR's that are both highly modified. Using the OEM drivers, the AR's are far superior speakers. It is not even close, even though the AR's need gobs more power. If you build new cabinets for the Klipsch, as they should have been from the factory ( front mounted horns with larger bass chambers and radiused corners in the bass horn itself ), upgrade the tweeters to something that extends beyond 12 KHz without major break-up and "fix" the problems in the crossover and internal wiring, they are FAR superior to the factory designs. It is at that point that the playing field levels off and may actually favour the Klipsch. It is at this point that the Klipsch are no longer Klipsch though and have become a custom built product : ) Sean
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I've posted this elsewhere, but one of the most entertaining sessions of the Acoustical Society of America I attended was a debate between Paul Klipsch and Edgar Villcher (of AR fame). At issue, of course, was a large speaker driven through small excursions vs. a small speaker driven through large excursions, and controlling distortions with large excursions. Klipsch said something like, I don't care if you push it with a broom handle, you still have to move the air.

I assume stereo reduced the popularity of corner loaded horns, given that an integral part of the design was incorporating the walls extending from the corner of a room as an extension of the horn. Not many rooms lend themselves to two horns placed in the corners.

db