@willemj I will definitely check out the Yamaha power amp. I have enough cash to buy a decent power amp so I might as well use it. Thanks again for all your help.
Just confused about where to start
Hello all,
I'm looking to add speakers to my audiophile setup which currently consists of (very high end) headphones. I want speakers for everything the headphones cannot do - simple enough. Problem is, I'm having difficulty deciding which gear I want to buy. I demoed a pair of B&W 705 S2's today and was very impressed. Unfortunately, my budget isn't that high. It's $1500 total, for the speakers and amp combined. Source is a computer. I listened to a cheaper pair of B&W bookshelf speakers (can't remember which, but were around $1200) and was not impressed. I am leaning toward bookshelf speakers but don't know if getting floorstanding at this price point would be a large increase in quality. The room they will be placed in is only 100 square feet. I am willing to buy used.
So, my questions, summed up are:
Is bookshelf a better option than floorstanding?
Is it worth looking at cheaper B&W models, or should I look at other companies altogether?
At least with headphones, I like a pretty neutral sound, if not a tad warm. Are there any companies that predominantly have this sound signature?
How should the room size inform my choice of speakers?
I'm looking to add speakers to my audiophile setup which currently consists of (very high end) headphones. I want speakers for everything the headphones cannot do - simple enough. Problem is, I'm having difficulty deciding which gear I want to buy. I demoed a pair of B&W 705 S2's today and was very impressed. Unfortunately, my budget isn't that high. It's $1500 total, for the speakers and amp combined. Source is a computer. I listened to a cheaper pair of B&W bookshelf speakers (can't remember which, but were around $1200) and was not impressed. I am leaning toward bookshelf speakers but don't know if getting floorstanding at this price point would be a large increase in quality. The room they will be placed in is only 100 square feet. I am willing to buy used.
So, my questions, summed up are:
Is bookshelf a better option than floorstanding?
Is it worth looking at cheaper B&W models, or should I look at other companies altogether?
At least with headphones, I like a pretty neutral sound, if not a tad warm. Are there any companies that predominantly have this sound signature?
How should the room size inform my choice of speakers?
72 responses Add your response
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This is volunteer work for the Dutch Cyle Touring Club. The course is taught by the best frame builder in the Netherlands, in his workshop, and I am there to make the coffee and to give a helping hand. Camping in the orchard. I am sure it will get me in the mood for this summer's tour, probably to the South of France. As for your amplifier: since you already have the DAC/pre amp part of the chain, you may want to consider the 2x120 watt Behringer A500. Alternatively, for a bit more money but also better build quality, why not try to find a Yamaha P2500s or P3500s. I bought a 2x250 watt P2500s for my son for only 300 euro, and it is outstanding. The model has recently been discontinued, but you may still find one somewhere, and perhaps at a discount. See here for a review of the 2x350 watt p3500s: http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/amplificateurs-de-puissance-haute-fidelite/mesures-ampli-yamaha-p... |
@willemj Sorry, guess I didn't tag you in my blurb about the headphone amp. https://www.schiit-europe.com/index.php/producten/lyr-2-high-power-tube-hybrid-or-solid-state-headam... This is the amp. It's stated that it can be used as a preamp with "powered desktop speakers" So does this mean it would work fine with a power amp as well? I'm creating a new thread as has been suggested and will tag you there as well. |
If budget is tight, nothing beats Yamaha with their AS 501/701/801 integrated amplifiers or their receivers like the RN803d that was mentioned earlier. I see no point in going second hand with budget gear: by the time you have had them refurbished, you may have spent more than on a new unit. Howeer, you have not yet answered my question about your DAC/headphone amp: can you use it as a pre amplifier? If so, all you would need is something like a $200 Behringer A500 power amplifier. |
The new Yamaha integrated amp is worth checking out. It has bass management and YPAO room correction, plus more wattage than the Elac Element I mentioned upthread. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha’s-new-21-channel-receiver-boasts-ypao-room-correction |
I got them! https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8gig3-snell-m-7-stand-mount-monitor-speakers-monitors?show_list... $500 in the hole, I can stretch my budget up to $1500, but I’d like to keep it under $1000 if possible. Thanks so much @jond for the recommendation! Haven’t auditioned them sadly, but it seems that this was too good of a deal to pass on. They supposed to be pretty neutral, owing to their inefficient power use. So now that is done, I ’d welcome any recommendations for the amp. The Luxman before has been suggested, so I can contact the seller for that. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8f99a-luxman-l-530-stereo-integrated-amplifier-solid-state https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sansui-AU-D11-II-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier-Japan-Serviced-Near-MI... The Sansui AU-D11 looks like a good option on paper. Looks like a quality amp, but the specs sheet didn’t tell me what class amp it is. I have this https://www.electromod.co.uk/schiit/amplifiers/lyr-2/ which can be used as a preamp for *powered desktop speakers* I’m not sure about its use with a power amp for passive speakers. I really appreciate everyone providing their input. It's exciting hearing everyone's different takes on gear. With headphones it pretty simple, but speakers have so much more variety in the setups. |
I've never heard the LS50W described as sounding that way. I wonder if there was a problem with that speaker, a poor quality source, etc., but there are plenty of other great options out there and it sounds like you have some you're excited about...pick what sounds great to your ears and best of luck. You definitely aren't obligated to buy from your local dealer, but if you're buying something they offer, I think it's a good idea once you've worked with them to at least make a phone call as a courtesy and see if they can match the price you can get online or elsewhere...many times they will get far closer than you expect and you'll have the benefit of someone local to deal with any issues down the line. They'll appreciate getting the chance to earn your business and most are very understanding that you buy elsewhere when they can't come close on the price...and if they're a total jerk about it, you know you're better spending elsewhere anyway. |
Man if it was me all I want to do in any price range , especially yours is wait for something great under the money to come along. My choice however would be especially based on your comments to look for a pr of lightly used Magnaplanar MG II,s for around $800 or so. On EBay right now is one of the biggest baddest best sounding underrated bullet proof integrated amps around. Sansui Aud11 for $700 that would make some Maggy’s very happy with its 200 w x 2 huge power supply and just as happy into 4ohms Sold a lot of better audio in my early days and always thought this amp sounded as good as a lot of other gear costing 3x the $ bookshelves can sound great but nothing better at modest volumes than Maggie’s ,they get up and follow you around. Good luck. |
To elaborate on the room size issue: the Schroeder frequency of that room will be about 275 Hz. Below that you will suffer room modes (i.e. massive peaks and dips and hence boomy one note bass), and the more so the more deep bass you pump into the room. Hence my preference for speakers without deep bass. The bass that there is will still have to be corrected/equalized. Since you will be using a computer as a source, this is relatively easy. All you need is a cheap UMIK-1 calibrated microphone, using the free REW software. Measure the in-room response (you will be horrified), create a correction curve, and load that into the free Equalizer APO software (if you are using a PC, there are alternatives for other platforms). |
That room is tiny, so you really do not need massive amplification. Spend as litle as you can on the amplifier (within reason) to have as much budget for speakers. Can you use your headphone DAC/amplifier as a pre amplifier? If you can, you will only need a (modest) power amplifier. You do run a risk with second hand speakers. They may have been abused, and they may have degraded. Many do not perform to spec anymore after only 15 years, or less if they have been in the sun in front of a window. |
@tls49 the salesman used the same amp and simply swapped out the speakers for me. The amp was McIntosh’s brand new hybrid model https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers/MA252 Very nice tubey sound with the amp, and quite synergistic with the 705 S2's. I took a listen to a track I knew well and decided the B&W 707 S2’s weren’t for me. The 705 S2’s however, were excellent. Imaged very well and had a very spacious sound. Detail was good too. Shame about the $2500 price tag... |
Good luck on getting the M7's, but keep in mind they will need a substantial amp. I saw where the impedance drops below 4 ohms, so that, the 87 db sensitivity, and manufacturer recommending a minimum of 100 watts means they will need serious power. I would be looking for a high current 200 watt amp that is stable at 4 ohms. You mentioned that the B&W's that impressed you were being driven by a McIntosh amp. Do you remember the amp driving the lesser expensive B&W's that didn't impress? |
@lowrider57 https://content.abt.com/documents/8800/M7_cut-sheet.pdf At 16"x13"x8", they're massive for bookshelf speakers |
@lowrider57 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8gig3-snell-m-7-stand-mount-monitor-speakers-monitors At 28 lbs each and having a recommended power rating of 100-300w it looks like I'm gonna have a field day finding an amp for these. I didn't buy the Luxman mentioned earlier because it looks like it doesn't have enough juice for these. |
Muffinhead, on which speakers did you make an offer? Would it be best if I match receivers to speakers based on wattage? My concern is not getting enough volume.When you select speakers, look at the specs; sensitivity (in dB), nominal impedance, recommended power rating. If possible, check the impedance curve; how hard it is to drive the speaker throughout the frequency range. When selecting an amp/receiver, choose power on the higher end of the speaker’s rating. |
@jond Thank you. Buying used is something I enjoy because of the recovery of costs in the event of resale, and the fun in hunting for deals. I just made an offer for the speakers, hope I get them. Would it be best if I match receivers to speakers based on wattage? My concern is not getting enough volume. |
I am a fan of buying used and maximizing your budget especially when its a smaller one. Browsing the listings a couple things jumped out at me. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8gig3-snell-m-7-stand-mount-monitor-speakers-monitors A nice pair of monitors from Snell $1800 new for $450 I like that they use s silk dome tweeter and paper woofer more natural sounding materials. Snell tends to make solid musical speakers and these look like a bit of a steal. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8f99a-luxman-l-530-stereo-integrated-amplifier-solid-state A nice looking vintage Luxman integrated for $700 the first 15 watts are Class A so it should have a warmer sound. One downside the listing ends in about 90 minutes but if you not the sellers name you can always contact him later. Those two pieces call them $12-1300 shipped leave you a little money leftover for speaker stands and/or cables. No affiliation with either buyer. It doesn't have to be these exact pieces but that's how I would approach your project. Good luck! |
I kind of surprised you liked the Motion 15s considering the sound signature you mentioned upthread, I found the ML Motion series to be unpleasantly bright, but it could've been set up poorly in the BB when I demoed them, there's a ton of variation between different stores, and even between speakers in the same store with them. The first time I checked out the ML Electromotion ESLs I thought they sounded like junk, heard them at a different store and they sounded great. The LS50 Wireless is supposed to be superior to the unpowered version, so it could have been a setup issue. Having built-in DSP and amps matched to the drivers should actually lead to a performance edge. I've only demoed the unpowered version and I thought they were nice enough, but I didn't think they sounded any better than my Elac Uni-Fis and weren't worth anywhere near twice the price. They are finished much more nicely though. If you're going to add a sub (which again, I do recommend) make sure whichever pre-amp/amp or integrated you choose has built-in bass management and some form of room EQ. Aside from the Elac Element there's also the Paradigm PW Amp and the Martin Logan Forte (which is just a Paradigm PW Amp in a Martin Logan case) both of which offer great subwoofer integration and ARC room correction. They don't have the built-in USB DAC or a remote control like the Elac Element, however, you have to use a smartphone app to control them. |
I have $3000 in headphone gear, which is well beyond the point of diminishing marginal returns. There's really nowhere for me to go from where I am with those. One other reason I want speakers is because I like listening to music with friends. As for having to buy because I used the saleman's time: I am in no way obligated to buy something just because someone did their job and showed me the features of a product...just putting that out there. I neglected to mention that the visit to the best buy also led to a purchase of $1800 tower speakers for my mother, and that the $1500 total of the offer doesn't include sales tax nor the price of shipping the stuff up to college. I know I can do better with the price of this gear, and want some more opinions and more listens to additional speakers before I make a decision. |
Listened to the Kef LS50’s and thought they sounded like hot garbage. Dark, muddy, poor articulation. No way they’re worth $1000. Was the same amp used for both speaker demos? Can you tell us which amp you would be purchasing? |
Well if you have an itch to get an audio system quickly... go for it. I helped my neighbor install a Sonos system from Best Buy to meet his needs and he really enjoys it. I think you could do better but your ears are the ones that must be satisfied. The Peachtree Integrated gets many postive reviews even if it does not test well. I suggested that amp because it has the ICE amps that would push the MMGs to sound stellar. |
OK, just got back from best buy... Listened to the Kef LS50’s and thought they sounded like hot garbage. Dark, muddy, poor articulation. No way they’re worth $1000. I listened to a pair of Martin Logan Motion 15’s...sounded great. Almost as good as the more expensive B&W’s to my ears. The salesman gave me a deal of $1500 which included the speakers, a subwoofer, and an amp. The pair of speakers is available for $600 shipped off the web. I told the salesman I would consider his offer and come back later. Any thoughts on these? |
You've discussed New vs Used, but there's a middle-ground option...Refurbished. That gets you a significant discount and still usually includes a decent return policy if you aren't happy with the results. At accessories4less.com they have refurbished Kef LS50s & Focal Aria 906s both for $999. I have a pair of LS50s and highly recommend them. Pick up a decent integrated amp for <$500 (yamaha a-s501?) and talk one of the flatmates who uses them for TV into picking up the cost of the subwoofer if any deem it necessary to feel the room shake. I have my LS50s in a master bedroom system and am more than satisfied without the subwoofer though. |
I am sure the Magnepan speakers will sound great. However, I am not so sure about the Peachtree amp. Other Peachtree amps have shown pretty weird measured performance in Stereophile tests. I think a Yamaha AS 501 would be far better, and for less. See here for a review of its predecessor the AS 500, identical but for the lack of digital inputs. For example, the frequency response under load is stunningly flat (and a lesson to Peachtree). |
Overall, no it isn't a problem to buy used speakers... You might want to ask questions first. If the speakers have been driven very hard for years, their suspensions could be weak. I'd personally want them to be under 7 or 8 years old without abusive treatment. 2 or 3 year old speakers should be safe and really, if a friend had 10 plus year old speakers and I knew that they were driven with quality components and never abused with clipping & such, even then, I would buy them.... Alot to absorb and this is just my opinion from my experience. |
@timlub ok, sounds like I'll give the ELAC setup a go. I'm going to listen to some speakers today at some more HIFI stores, so maybe I'll find something else in the $1000 range. Otherwise, it sounds like that's the best option. One more question: Should I be averse to buying used speakers? Besides the obvious problems of dented drivers and tweeters, are there any issues I should look out for? |
