Jeff Rowlands Amp and Dac vs. VAC amp and DAC
Getting the amplification, speaker, room part of the system optimized together to a good degree is the most critical part to get right technically. With that you have a solid foundation to work upon. The rest is much easier to get right as long as one knows what kind of sound they are seeking to start with. You can’t hit the target exactly without a solid foundation to stand on or if you don’t know where or what the target is exactly. |
I would say we maintained a relative neutrality, most certainly when it came to the wallet. I did hint slightly that LAMM could be the best choice from purely audiophile perspective. But there are other factors here at play, namely aesthetics, convinience, size, familiarity, reliability. And I only did it because I think I got a pretty good idea of what Rinpoche wants to accomplish. I believe, we've been good and I find your statements totally incorrect and irrelevant when it comes to this thread. By the way, what makes you think that nothing is perfect? This implies that you know everything. What a wonderful arrogance. |
ricpoche, at some point you just make a decision knowing that nothing is perfect, you will always have people telling you what you should do or what's better(despite the fact they probably haven't actually heard the component). It took me a long time to realize my ears are the only ones that count. I submit it's great to ask for opinions as a way of narrowing down what to listen to, but "your ears and wallet" will make the right decision for you. |
My aplogies Inna, I really have no experience what so ever shopping oriental bazars, so I have no idea about negotiation practices therein. Want to help me with that next time I have the opportunity? Conversely, I have negotiated all my musical purchases since 1970... Both sides of the Pond, both North and South of the 49th. Have I broken etiquette again on this thread by suggesting the application of such uncooth acquisitional techniques? G. |
Hi again Rinpoche, "problem" is that by listening to M625 S2 you have set your reference point very high. I suspect that if you get any other amp, including Continuum S2, you will place yourself onto a path of regrets and second guessing yourself, followed by an unavoidable course of "upgraditis furiosa". Rather, why not try to megotiate a price break with Angie? Regards, Guido |
I love the 625 S2 so that is what this is all about. Making sure this is where I want to be. The goal is to be happy. I don't know if you have heard the Vac 200, it is lovely. But for me it is the amount of time it is in use (given it is also for my work) and the playing around with tubes. The JR is lovely. I am in the final stretch now. Thank you all. |
Hi Rinpoche, in the Rowland field, there is also the Continuum S2 integrated. I ssuspect its cost in Canada might be 60% to 65% of M625 S2. CS2 is an absolutely marvellous sounding amp... Approximately 400W per channel. I heard it several times at RMAF and it is incredibly musical and resolving. You can either feed your Aeris in its line level inputs, or bypass the built-in Capri S2 linestage circuit, and feed Aeris directly into the amplification stage inputs. Here is Roy Gregory's review of Continuum S2 on The Audiobeat: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/jeff_rowland_continuum_s2.htm Guido
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I listened to Sarah's music on youtube. She is articulated and controlled, in addtion to being dreamy. This is a wild guess, but I think that in the long run, at least at this level not perhaps the best possible level, you will enjoy Rowland or LAMM more than VAC. Which one would be better? You could ask Vladimir this too. You could ask him why he might think that his amps would be better with your Wilsons for your taste and the kind of music you listen to. As far as I know, unless it changed, he doesn't make dacs or integrated amps. This tells us that he is a die hard analog man and strives for the highest performance. |
There is still a pair of LAMM M2.2 monoblocks available here for $12800 or best offer. If you consider LAMM, ask the seller for serial numbers and then call or write Vladimir Shushirin, LAMM designer and owner, and ask him about these particular amp's service and repair history. He matches tubes to each amp ! He is a serious person and audiophile. You can ask him about Wilson/LAMM match too. The biggest mistake in choosing the equipment is spending less than needed. The second biggest mistake is spending more than needed. If you eventually go with LAMM and later want to add a preamp, this preamp will almost certainly be all tube LAMM, could usually be found for $6000 or so. If you also consider older Rowlands, I suggest you start a separate thread specifically about them. Some people heard them all with different speakers, and not all Rowlands were great. |
Thanks, it seems I am courting the right products. Again, since I wrote, another ad for LAMM M2.2 has come to my attention. A friend sent it to me. I am inquiring about its age and so on. I would love to know more from you about LAMM, since you were the first to recommend it. I am still leaning very much toward JR as you know, but don't want to make the wrong move since this is an expensive and hopefully long term committment. I would be able to spend up to 15-16,000 USD. But why not spend less if I can!!!!! Then I could add preamp and cables and just listen to Sarah Mclaughlan and be happy. |
Hello Rinpoche. It would be helpful if you could tell how much you were prepared to spend on the amp, in $US. But if you asked me, I would not settle for anything less than VAC, Rowland or LAMM. Others here, and Wilson Audio themselves, also suggested ARC and VTL. I cannot comment on this because I have no idea. |
Hello everyone and especially Inna, I have not yet taken the plunge. The price of the JR is very high. However, I am going to decide very soon. But this morning as I was browsing some sights I found a LAMM M1.2 that I could afford. It is in the US so I might not be able to hear it (???) unless I go on a short trip (which I could do given my brother lives not far away). It is used so well priced. Any thoughts on this? R |
rinpoche, If at the moment you want to minimize the outlay of cash but still get a capable cd transport to use now, a consideration might be a Cambridge CXC, or maybe an Oppo player; can always upgrade to a PS Audio Perfectwave Transport or the like when it makes sense to you to do so. In the meantime you'd get to use your cd collection. |
If you see or hear of a used CD player that you think would be good for not a lot of money, let me know.Hi Rinpoche, The Aeris DAC does not provide any analog inputs, so until and unless you purchase a preamp you would want to connect a digital output of the CD player to a digital input of the DAC. Or, alternatively, you could consider purchasing a CD transport, which would not include a digital-to-analog converter function and would only provide digital outputs. It seems that in more situations than not a coaxial S/PDIF digital connection provides better sonics than a Toslink connection, although that is certainly not always the case. The Aeris provides BNC connectors for its coaxial S/PDIF inputs, while most CD players and transports (especially in the lower parts of the price spectrum) provide those signals on RCA connectors. But BNC/RCA adapters are readily available inexpensively, and can provide fine results. Best regards, -- Al |
ricred1..don't get your pan..... in a twist! I own a customized ( by Jeff) model 8T...which frankly blew away the standard 625 in my system when I did an AB. My tube amp ( which I suspect you do not own--or for that matter any tube amp!) is an ARC classic. Like all great tube amps, it has a sound that no ss amp can achieve....none. Sure, the Rowlands create depth, just not IME as much depth as the best tube amps of my experience. Unfortunately, I suspect that you have not heard what a great tube amp can do in your system... That's not my problem. Like I said before---no wrongs, no rights. Ok, next--- |
daveyf, I’m not concerned about if you like or dislike the 625 S2. I don’t understand why or how you make blankets statements about equipment when you admit that you haven’t compared it to a tube amplifier in your system, because you haven’t heard it in your system. I have the 625 S2 and in my system, if the recording has depth, it reproduces it. I’ve had and heard many amplifiers with music that I’m very familiar and the 625 S2 produces depth equal to or better than every amplifier I’ve listened to. No it’s not for everyone, but to suggest it doesn’t do something that it does is a disservice to OP that either purchased or is considering this amp. |
ricred1, i have not heard the 625S2 in my system, but I have heard the 625's on several occasions. The 625's are a good amp, but like I said, they sound to me like a ss amp ( nothing really wrong in that). The ss sound is ( at least to my ears) not quite the same "flavor" as the tube sound. No wrongs, no rights. |
Hello to all of you. Just got all of your fabulous posts. I don't know any of you, yet I feel a kindred spirit-ness. Guido — no offence taken whatsoever. Your amps are definitely better. And, if I could afford more I would go that route without question. And, just to let you know Angie spoke so highly of you and she remembers you well. I gave her your regards and she returns your best wishes. Next, inna — I didn't entertain the LAMM because in Canadian dollars it it still way out of my budget. Would that it were other wise I would be listening to the M1 whatever # they are and travelling to visit the Quebec dealership. Alas, admittedly, I do listen to digital and I take your observation to heart. I am sure this is the WEAK link in the whole chain. I agree totally. But, again, convenience is a high priority. It is clear that I will (probably) never go vinyl. CDs might happen. I have a fabulous CD collection but no CD player presently. If and when I have some extra cash (LOL) I might get on and will return to you to get your advice. As you have already provided excellent advice on CDs — thank you so much. Also, I will run the Aeris directly until I can save up for the right pre-amp. I don't want to hurry things too much just because I am impatient. The Aeris and 625 S2 (yes it is the S2) will work for now and make me very happy. When that plateaus, as we all know it will, then I will add in the pre-amp and be in listening nirvana again. But no tweaking. No rolling tubes. No two amps and changing wires. Just a great sound with a nice aesthetic. That is okay, isn't it? |
Thank you Facten, you are absolutely correct. I was merely pointing out that not only Nirvana is perfectly achievable with SS preamplifiers instead of tubed ones... But the complete abscence of a preamplifier in the chain need not be a limiting factor in the enjoyment of music. As for my admittedly beloved M925s... No performance comparison with M625 S2 was implied. Saluti, G. |
Congrats Rinpoche for your preliminary selection. Just in case Angie does not have the Rowland M625 S2 Manual yet, you can quickly download it from my Dropbox public folder.... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53640097/JRDG_M625_S2_MANUAL_REVA1.pdf Concerning preamps / linestages, Rowland currently has two offerings... The Capri S2, and the flagship Corus with external power supply. I suspect that Angie might have at have one or both of them to listen to... No worries, just like the M625 S2, these creatures do not sound shallow or solid statish *grins!* On the other hand, I have my Rowland M925 monos fed directly by the Aeris DAC, and I am not suffering a ... in heaven *grins! Saluti, Guido |
And..I didn't want to say it before but I will say it now. Having an excellent hearing and artistic taste, she is bothered by digital without fully realizing it more than by tubes/transistors incompleteness. Digital does not have analog's naturalness and continuity, it can at times approximate. No amp in the world can compensate for it but good amp can make the digital sound as best as it can, and that's the theoretical objective in this case. |
There are many brands that could be worth auditioning, including Ayre. She chose to audition these two with occasionaly couple of others in the mix. The big question here is tubes or not. The possible question Rowland or Ayre is not very significant by comparison. People approach things differently. With the same speakers I would compare used LAMM tube preamp/ hybrid amps and VAC, I would not consider either Rowland or Ayre except maybe older Rowland 8Ti and 9Ti with Coherence preamp. I suggested LAMM, she doesn't want to go this direction and I understand well why. I think, she is doing all the right things within her set of parameters. She is a music lover not an audiophile and doesn't want to spend all weekends for a year to choose something that she already might've auditioned. |
Here's a thought, maybe do as I do... own a Rowland ss amp for when you want that ss sound..and a tube amp for when you like the sound of tubes! The Rowland is an excellent ss amp, having said that, it has all of the typical ss attributes...less depth than what tubes will give you, less purity in the midrange and slightly less definition of timbre. OTOH, the ss amp has better control of the bass, slightly more exact positioning of the players on the stage...although as I said above, the stage is foreshortened and the bonus of being a) probably more reliable and b) giving off less heat. Plus, the ss amp can typically drive a wider range of speakers ( at least the one I own). There is no amp that I am aware of that gives the best of both worlds...ss and tube. |
Hi Rinpoche, Congratulations on your decision, preliminary though it may be. To be sure it's clear, is the Roland you have tentatively settled on the 625S2? Also, just out of curiosity, which speaker make (Focal?) and specific model was it that you listened to in the recent session? And if you know or can determine it during your next visit, which tap on the 200iq was used in connecting to that speaker? Best, -- Al |
