The Frogman:
****Well, if you insist; and, please understand that my lack of enthusiasm for this performance and Niquet is the very reason that I had not commented.*****
Negative reviews can be more instructive / valuable, than the positive ones. This is the stuff I most want to hear.
Forgot to say this earlier.
Cheers |
Frogman,I thought the Joe Sullivan big band narrative showed how there are enclaves of musicians all over the world, perfecting their craft. Community. Striving to move forward, knowing if they stop growing and stretching, they will stop getting that RUSH of playing music. I thought it fit into the conversation without actually commenting myself. Listen again if you get a chance.
Joe Sullivan has been in rotation for a while on my local college station KNTU at the University of N.Texas, which as you may know is a pretty good school for JAZZ. Did you notice the Youtube had less than 50 views?
I am a fan of Fred Hirsch, and have several of his CD's. I love the last CD with Julian Lage. Lage was new to me .
I am familiar with Ted Nash. I will dig into his music more. I have only heard him in other peoples bands. I listened to a little of the Presidents Suites, but only little snippets.
I would be lying if I said I had heard Rich Perry. His playing, from what I have heard today, has a beautiful breathy tone. Very nice! I did notice he had a CD out with Jim Mcneely's music. I am a big fan of Mcneely's writing and piano playing, so that may be a good one for me.
I have Tim Hagan's Animation and the live CD that followed. Lost track after that. He is a very good trumpet player. Sometimes the style he WAS playing got in the way of how good he was. Always fun though.
I will have to look into the other players. Only so much time!
As far as Donny Mcaslin,I Iike his music. He is a good soloist. As Rok mentioned he did get a little long, but he is young and having a blast. I personally like a lot of electronic jazz. I will have to keep an eye on him.
Have you heard of a pianist named Chris Parker? |
Acman3, yeah, a shame that the Sullivan clip is only getting 50 views. You're right about the NTS, a lot of great young players have come out of that program and the One O'clock Lab Band. Do you ever hear about or know a trumpet player (also plays saxophone, incredibly enough) named Bob Meyer? When I was going to school at U of Miami in the late '70's there was a guy from Texas (Austin, I think) who was living and teaching at U of M. I remember that he was a rough-around-the edges player, but with fantastic jazz feel and style. I have often wondered what happened to him; I had heard he moved back to Texas.
I will checkout Chris Parker; thanks for the tip. |
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That is the same Bob Meyer. Sad news. Thanks for the clip. He was well past his prime in that clip, he used to be an interesting and fiery player. May he rest in peace. |
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Thanks for the clips. On that first clip, in spite of the poor audio quality, I can hear the Bob Meyer that I remember; good writer, too. Your clips led me to, and reminded me of, a clip of Bob playing with South Fla legend and Chicago native Ira Sullivan. We often bring up the topic of players who seem to go into relative obscurity and and don't seem to get their due. As has also been pointed out, and as incredible as it may seem, some artists simply don't care about popularity and fame. These guys are incredibly dedicated to their art and they just want to play their music; Ira Sullivan is one of those people. One of the most interesting people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and one of the most incredible multi-instrumentalists ever, Ira could burn on trumpet/flugelhorn, all the saxophones and on flute. He is 83 now and still playing great. Every instrument he plays sounds like his main axe; incredible! Ira on trumpet: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=igJKk5L8EF0On tenor: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4y5-ImyDTr0On flute (along with Joe Farrell, my favorite jazz flute player):
On alto and trumpet: you can skip to 6:00 to hear an amazing exchange with another overlooked, and almost forgotten, great bebopper Red Rodney:
[URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=69zE8JrTdCg>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ry-stUpBXEQ[URL]
On alto and trumpet: you can skip to 6:00 to hear an amazing exchange with another overlooked, and almost forgotten, great bebopper Red Rodney:
[URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=69zE8JrTdCg |
Thanks for the clips. On that first clip, in spite of the poor audio quality, I can hear the Bob Meyer that I remember; good writer, too. Your clips led me to, and reminded me of, a clip of Bob playing with South Fla legend and Chicago native Ira Sullivan. We often bring up the topic of players who seem to go into relative obscurity and and don't seem to get their due. As has also been pointed out, and as incredible as it may seem, some artists simply don't care about popularity and fame. These guys are incredibly dedicated to their art and they just want to play their music; Ira Sullivan is one of those people. One of the most interesting people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and one of the most incredible multi-instrumentalists ever, Ira could burn on trumpet/flugelhorn, all the saxophones and on flute. He is 83 now and still playing great. Every instrument he plays sounds like his main axe; incredible! Ira on trumpet: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=igJKk5L8EF0On tenor: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4y5-ImyDTr0On flute (next to Joe Farrell, my favorite jazz flute player: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ry-stUpBXEQOn alto and trumpet with another almost forgotten great bebopper Red Rodney. Skip to 6:00 for an amazing exchange between Ira and Red: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=69zE8JrTdCg |
Everyone familiar with MOOC?
http://www.mooc-list.com/course/introduction-music-etsu
Cheers |
No, but watched the intro; seems worthwhile. Go for it! |
The DCI championships used to be televised each year. Another casualty of lowest common denominator programming.
I love this stuff!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myiEWUL37ZU
Check out all the different group's youtubes from the 2013 Championships.
Cheers |
Billy Bang Quintet -- RAINBOW GLADIATOR
If this is an example of Avant-Garde Jazz, I stand corrected.
This is great stuff. The booklet was a joke, did not even list the players by name or instrument.
But, I just had to go to AMG, to discover the ID of the piano player. Her name is Michele Rosewoman. She can play. Another 'discovery' of mine.
Check it out.
Cheers |
Michele Rosewoman released one of the top Latin Jazz recordings this past year!
Michele Rosewoman's New Yor-Uba! VERY ethnic/folkoric mixed with very exciting Jazz voicings. Not for the faint-hearted though!;)
http://www.michelerosewoman.com/newyoruba/ |
It will never be abstract again!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOFAtg9twM
Cheers |
Agree about Michelle Rosewoman. And like Chazro points out, not for the faint-hearted; but, man her stuff is interesting! One of the most creative musicians on the Latin scene; she kills! Where's ONE?! http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=sHhZAIs8XrAThis intro is just beautiful! The great Howard Johnson plays some beautiful penny-whistle (!) and then kills on tuba. http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=sJ60HyN9EosAnd some keep claiming that jazz is dead?! |
Jazz is musicians music.
I knew some big time jazzman once upon a time, most had little money.Audience was simply not there in USA, most what they did make was in Europe according to Paul Bley. |
The Frogman:
Your links didn't work. Please re-check them. I did youtube her, and I don't get this 'faint of heart' business. I find her stuff very accessible. Maybe because it has cohesion.
It could be that watching a performance creates empathy for the players that LP/CD do not. It's great seeing young people trying to create SERIOUS music.
Cheers |
I believe Jazz is in, or heading for another peak. Tremendous musicianship, and most of all great writing. Of course, some will pine for he past, which I also love, but really liking most of the directions Jazz is taking. |
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Every study I've seen shows Jazz AND Classical combined are listened to by 2% of American Public.
Of course thats 6 million souls.
I'm lucky , the college where I live has a Jazz Studies program that Downbeat has rated #1 in US 3-4 times.
Has 3 big bands and numerous ensembles giving free to cheap concerts many times from Sept to Mat + visiting artists etc.
I believe about 300 majors . Decent classical and vocal concerts as well.
A mini Indiana. |
I am reposting with (hopefully) working links. Agree about Michelle Rosewoman. And like Chazro points out, not for the faint-hearted; but, man her stuff is interesting! One of the most creative musicians on the Latin scene; she kills! Where's ONE?! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sHhZAIs8XrAThis intro is just beautiful! The great Howard Johnson plays some beautiful penny-whistle (!) and then kills on tuba. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ60HyN9EosAnd some keep claiming that jazz is dead?! |
The Frogman:
The links worked the second time. VIVA CUBA!!!
What was that 'toy' saxophone? Soprano?
Cheers |
Various -- THE BEST JAZZ TUNES OF 1960
Various -- THE BEST JAZZ TUNES OF 1961
From the same people that produced the "100 Best Jazz Tunes of the 1950s"
The sound quality is of the same high standard. As before, all top tier players and groups. More lesser known tunes, but that is a good thing.
Nice notes in the inserts with good pictures. Nice package. 2 CDs in each set.
I felt that the 'middle' was sort of weak on Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' and Ornette Coleman's 'Blues Connotation'. At low levels it can disappear. That Ornette gets better every time I hear him.
ANDY BEY AND THE BEY SISTERS. This is great singing with awesome arrangements. Ain't got it, git it. This is the one on the 'prestige' label.
I am listening to my second CD by Bey and his sisters now. Another great one I think!
Cheers |
That was a curved (as opposed the more common straight) soprano. |
The Frogman:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner -- WATER-FIREWORKS
Received this yesterday. It's on 'Authentic' Instruments.
I noticed that the horn sound was much smoother and rounder than the horns on the Proms/French piece. They sounded almost liked modern valved horns.
Is it possible that the French horn players, played the piece exactly as they intended. Could it be that that's the way the horns would have sounded when Handel wrote the piece. The BBC presenter did say the sound would be 'different' to modern ears.
Why isn't all, or at least most, Classical music played on the instruments in use when the music was first written and performed?
Cheers |
Excellent questions.
****Is it possible that the French horn players, played the piece exactly as they intended. ****
Unlikely. Choice of volume, blend and tone, possibly. Those are aesthetic choices in part dictated by the conductor. However, out of tune playing is never a desirable choice. The French players were very out of tune; better in tune playing can sometimes be perceived as "smoother". The English Baroque players are simply better players. Having said that, it is probably true that orchestras back then did not demonstrate the often flawless intonation heard from modern orchestras. This is due not only to today's, overall, much higher technical standard on the part of players, but also the superiority of modern instruments. I suppose an argument could be made that "rough-around-the-edges" playing was, in fact, what was often heard back then; but, I would wager that composers back then often cringed and wished that the playing were more refined.
****Why isn't all, or at least most, Classical music played on the instruments in use when the music was first written and performed?****
Assuming the availability of enough period instruments (still intact) to go around (not a safe assumption), playing those instruments presents special challenges to players. These instruments were not fully developed design-wise with fewer (or no) keys or valves in the case of the winds. These same orchestral players would also need to be ready to play more contemporary works that require the sophistication and more complete design of modern instruments without which much of the more modern (1800 or so +) repertory would simply be unplayable. It would be almost impossible for players to keep and stay up to speed on such a wide-range arsenal of different instruments for each historical period of music. |
Hi Rok - as the resident horn player, allow me to clarify Frogman's answers (which were good). The period instruments (what we now call "natural" horns), had no valves. So they could only get the notes of the natural harmonic series of the key that the instrument was pitched in. To change the key of the instrument, tubing had to be added or subtracted to it, pieces of tubing called "crooks." To fill in the notes of the scale, the players used a hand technique, which is much easier demonstrated than described - they would "close" the bell of the instrument with their hand, which bends the pitch to the correct note they want. These "stopped" notes have a much more metallic sound - we still do this today, actually, for the sound effect - Mahler in particular wrote a great deal of "stopped horn" notes. With the invention of the valves, this allowed the horn to play chromatically and get any notes needed without hand stopping them, with an even tone quality. I hope this is a decently satisfactory explanation - feel free to ask any questions this brings up, and I will try to clarify.
Most modern players do not have training in the specialized hand technique required to play the period instruments well anymore, only the people who actually play these early instruments would need to learn it. The technique can be demonstrated roughly on a modern instrument, however, which I often do at educational concerts, but I am not really a "natural horn" player.
It is no surprise at all to me, by the way, that the horn players on your Gardiner recording sound much better than the others. The guys in his group are pretty much the best in the world at it, as far as orchestral playing goes, anyway. The French groups are not nearly so well regarded as far as horn playing goes, and this actually goes for the modern instrument as well.
One thing to bear in mind is that in those Handel pieces, there aren't that many "stopped" notes anyway - hence, they will sound much more like modern instruments than they would if they were playing say Mozart or Beethoven, who wrote much more difficult and complicated parts for the horn. If you listen carefully, however, to that Gardiner recording, you will hear the difference between the "stopped" and open tones. Part of the technique is to make the "stopped" notes sound as much like the open ones as is possible, and those guys are really good at it. So they won't sound so metallic, they might sound more "covered" instead. That is a great recording, in fact the best I know of for the natural horn playing. |
What do you two musicians think of my fav ensemble,Musica Antiqua Koln ? |
The Frogman & Learsfool:
Can't the French get a little love? :) I saw the 'crooks' on the stage floor behind the players at the BBC Proms.
As far as the answers about why playing 'period' instruments would be a problem; it brought to mind the famous exchange between Monk and Coleman Hawkins. :)
Thanks to both of you for your excellent information. Where would we be without your unique perspectives on music and musicians.
Cheers |
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Acman3:
I have the soundtrack CD from the movie 'Kansas City' and another titled 'Kansas City Band/After Dark' which includes additional music from the film.
Your Clips: This is Jazz in it's natural enviroment. You got ya small cramped bar, you got ya smoke, you got ya rowdy crowd, you got ya working girls. Not a sheet of music in sight. The music just has to be Jazz!!
I see they are all wearing suits and ties. :) It does matter.
I prefer the Kansas city style above all others. It swings!
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers |
Hi Schubert - I am really not very familiar with Musica Antiqua Köln. I don't believe the group is actually in existence any more, I think they disbanded several years ago. If I remember correctly, they are the ones who specialized in the lesser known composers of the 17th and 18th centuries, and when they did perform say Bach or Handel, it was lesser known works.
I have always had an interest in the natural horn, but I never did pull the trigger on buying one and really learning the technique, I have only just messed around on one for a few minutes in a horn shop before. There is an active early music group in my area who tried to talk me into it, and would still probably hire me and program some stuff with horn were I to decide to do it, as there is only one guy in the area who does, and he doesn't do it very well anymore (he is nearing retirement), but I haven't yet. It is quite a bit different from what I normally do, so it would involve much time and work in my off-season, when I normally take some rest from playing. Not to mention the money involved in buying one and traveling to take some lessons to learn the special hand techniques involved. I would be lucky at this point to ever break even on that, as there wouldn't be a whole lot of opportunities to perform with it, there being only the one group in my area. So I would just be doing it for fun, which it no doubt would be. |
Yes, they disbanded in 2007, but still out there on Archiv.
Heavy on Bach and Telemann but about anyone in 17-18th Century.
I heard Herman Baumann play a Mozart Concerto on natural horn with the Berlin Radio Orch. , seemed almost a super-human feat to me.Beautiful beyond description. |
Craig Handy & 2nd Line Smith gets a mixed review from me. When It's good, it great. Unfortunately it only feels good for me 1/2 the time. Probably a killa band to see live!
If you're feeling in a swingin' 'Nawlins mood, I highly recommend a record I just picked up yesterday; Henry Butler & Steve Bernstein (& the Hot 9!)- Viper's Drag. Now this is the shit!;). Bernstein's a good trumpet player with excellent credentials, one of them being that he co-produced the soundtrack for 'Kansas City'!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxbPKLHl_A0&feature=player_embedded |
Nice clip, Acman3; nothing like a good tenor battle. A couple of thoughts that relate to recently discussed subjects:
Completely unimportant period instrument trivia: Craig Handy is playing a Selmer MK6 tenor and Joshua Redman a Selmer "Balanced Action". Redman's is the historically "correct" horn and is like what a player would have played in Kansas City at the time. The model Handy is playing was not made until almost twenty years later. Both great players and Redman actually captures the style of that era better than Handy who hints at a more modern harmonic sensibility. Great stuff!
Error in personnel listing: the baritone player is James Carter not Don Byron; Carter is the one with the "I am better than both those guys put together" expression on his face.
The suit thing: I agree that it's important; but, let's remember that most men wore suits and hats to walk to the drugstore. That's the way men dressed back then.
Thanks for sharing! |
Schubert, and also Rok, Herman Baumann's recording of the Mozart Horn Concerti on natural horn, conducted by Nicolas Harnoncourt, with the Concentus Musicus Wien, on the Telefunken label, is the finest natural horn playing I know of. Truly astounding. There are a few other good ones out there, but none of them better that one, which was I believe the first time they had been recorded on natural horn, in 1974. |
Rok, in my last post I stated that I stayed within the narrow definition of jazz to appease you. While that was the downside, the upside more than made up for it. Had it not been for you, I never would have discovered Nica, and those two very well recorded decades of jazz. In regard to factors surrounding jazz, they are the same factors surrounding everything; every body except the very rich have a lot less money or are unemployed. If you want to know what I'm talking about, go to this website http://wp.me/p2vRlu-4Enjoy the music. |
O-10:
The people that contribute to this thread can define Jazz anyway they please. No need to 'appease' me.
Some celeb, I forget who, once said, "I know my lane, and I stay in it". I do the same when it comes to music. There is plenty of choice for everyone. I am just glad I lived in the heyday of recorded Jazz. The young crowd can take it on in from here.
On the thread 'SET Bliss', Charles1dad recommended Monk's 'Live at the IT Club -- Complete.' I have it, so of course I listened to it. Great stuff. I have a question / Comment.
Monk, along among all the greatest Jazz players I am aware of, seemed to play quite a few of his 'Hits' on almost all of his recordings. Why is that?
Silver only played 'song for my father' once. Trane, 'Giant Steps' only once. I am not counting compliations or live recording dates. But all of Monk's records seem to always contain a lot of his "hits". Am I wrong in this? Any explanation?
The link you sent: Most negative social situations can be traced to one basic problem. There are too many people on this planet!! Think about it.
Cheers |
FYI: 'Tube Amps' on 'How it's made' tonight. Science channel. All of you that are into ancient technologies might find it interesting! |
Rok, which episode? I don't see Tube Amps listed on any of them for tonight. |
8-8:30
Central Standard Time. Time Warner Cable.
Cheers |
Monk never played anything the same way twice, consequently, each time he played it was different.
Too many people on the planet. "Stick to music Rok".
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Some people have too much money and use too much of the resoures, think about that . |
These are not being presented as input to the Jazz thread. Just a convenient place to store them for easy retrieval.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4C4NiVKrXk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZyCPhVvvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en6kmiX0SDc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6pnzyfFi9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0XMn0U9b2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmvT7B3u7II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EdmHSTwmWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIt3dx4an9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqBtS6BIP1E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWIGu6-r67Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0oFadjx-is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IEJlSGRX1Y |
Temporary storage: Not Jazz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFIOu2sYxoc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu9RVPTpDyA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNj9bXKGOiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlLsbL2LJKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oab4ZCfTbOI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO0Q3192Jrs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJX_MHeMm5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRctq68MGxM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOPYn1l1pvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43QMfiXMCeo |
O-10:
Thanks for the Monk comment. We can always depend on you to sort out all things Jazz.
****Too many people on the planet. "Stick to music Rok".****
I had to laugh at this one myself. But rest assured, when the herd is culled, we Jazz Aficionados will still be standing!! :)
Cheers |
O-10, Make sure you are Them and not Us.
Just make sure you spend your life giving not taking. If you start holding on to wealth you will never have enough. Think about it. |
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