Jazz for aficionados

I agree with the frogman.

I can easily decipher Monk on the title track. Silver and Monk are easily discernable.

Quick interrupt. Is there a consensus on recordings by Rudy Van Gelder? The reason I’m asking is because there appears to be some controversy because he made so many recordings in his makeshift studio in Hackensack, NJ from 1946 until 1959 when he moved to a real recording facility in Englewood Cliffs. And for many different labels, over a very long period of time, especially Savoy and Blue Note until 1959. I read somewhere that certain musicians refused to be recorded by Van Gekder because his recordings didn’t sound like the musicians. Some people speculated that this self constructed studio was not acoustically satisfactory. I am trying to avoid purchase of Rudy Van Gelder recordings until I sort all this out. Is it a coincidence that many of the Savoy Jazz Japan CDs from the 40s and 50s for sale on eBay and Amazon are Rudy Van Gelder productions? There’s a Rudy Van Gelder website that provides the complete discography for his recordings.

It's an honor to participate on a jazz thread with such astute aficionados. Pjw stated;

"I can easily decipher Monk on the title track. Silver and Monk are easily discernable."

I played the CD and duplicated his experience; therefore, that was not the album on which the alleged incident occurred.



In order to relay to you how "the alleged incident" occurs, which has occurred many times, I have to explain how I listen to music. Rarely do I put a CD in, and my record player is in storage. I simply settle back in my listening chair and turn on the computer "play-list", which I listen to for hours.

The computer is in the basement, while my listening room is on the ground floor. (Line level signals can be transmitted up to 80 feet using RG8 and USB.) Consequently, I have to identify the artist by ear alone, otherwise I have to get up and go down to the basement and check the "play-list" to verify the artist. If I identify the artist wrong, nobody is going to shoot me.

The experience I relayed to my friend Rok, had occurred numerous times before I discovered why it occurred. One thing is for certain, it was not on that album; my mistake. I simply relayed the experience to a friend, never thinking I would have to verify it.

If "every" time I hear this, I'm positive it's Monk, when in reality it's Horace Silver, there is a reason. The same thought always comes into my mind, "Would Frogman be fooled as well", and the answer to that question is; we would all have to be in the same room doing a blind listening test, because there is no way the Frogman would admit that he was deceived when the correct answer was right in front of him.

If anyone does not believe that Horace Silver can "comp" behind Miles Davis exactly like Monk, to the extent that everyone would think it was Monk, I got a bridge to sell them.

frog, I've read the same account of the tiff between Miles and Monk as o10 related, but no idea of where I read it or how long ago.  Anyway, your reasoning about Silver makes sense.

Now even though I have that disk, I've not listened to it for some time.  But playing your link offered a minor revelation.  Bags' solo prior to when Monk came in was the perfect intro.  It was like he offered up a small tribute to Monk's style.  I enjoyed that.

Today's Listen:

Ahmad Jamal  --  THE ESSENCE

Notes:   "Liner Notes Are Boring.   One of the best pieces ever done liner-notes-wise was done by Delfayo Marsalis -- "Brilliant."
"This music represents some of the things I have heard and continue to hear during my career as composer, pianist, and Orchestrator".

I like his attitude.   Excellent pictures, few words, in the booklet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9GmRLZtWng 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUZrobsfzgc  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgR3hLOeg8w 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-AtoqHNAgw   

A lot more to this man than 'Poinciana'.

Cheers

***** Is there a consensus on recordings by Rudy Van Gelder?*****

I will defer to the more audiophile leaning aficionados on this question.   I am somewhat of an anti-audiophile person, and I always, if given the option, will purchase the van Gelder editions.

Cheers

***** It's an honor to participate on a jazz thread with such astute aficionados.*****

Can't stop laughing.  I will be smiling all day.   Thanks OP.

Cheers

I’m not sure I understand what the problem is and certainly don’t understand why there has to be any negativity or sarcasm around the sharing of ideas about this great music. I would hope that the value in attempting to create an accurate picture of a musical event is appreciated by Aficionados. Again, I don’t question the tiff between Miles and Monk, I have read it as well.

**** If anyone does not believe that Horace Silver can "comp" behind Miles Davis exactly like Monk, to the extent that everyone would think it was Monk, I got a bridge to sell them. ****

Like Monk? Maybe....mostly. “exactly like Monk”? No way!  And, that’s not a bad thing; it’s a good thing.

Frogman, I'm positive that you would have said it was Monk in a blind test, but that can never be proven, because it can never happen, and in a hypothetical case you are  never wrong.

I'm listening to Diane Schuur; "The Man I Love". I have never heard this song sung before with such depth and sincerity. She's not singing a song, she's sharing with us her deepest emotions, and what she would do if she met "The Man She Loved".


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d80CT75ovqg


She became a drug addict; what I call a "legitimate drug addict", that's someone who has reasons, or a need to "escape reality". When reality becomes so overbearing that an individuals mind is about to explode, there is a reason to either escape it or go insane; that is when a psychiatrist would prescribe something as effective as heroin to relieve his patients suffering.

Diane Schuur:

Very good singer, however, all her albums suffer from the same thing, non-Jazz cover art / photo.  It does not draw you in the way the Blue Note / Impulse covers do.
Nice clip.

Cheers

Btw, there is no such thing as a 'legtimate' drug addict, in the sense that you meant it.   Drugs mean death, destruction, depravity and degradation.   Drugs solve NO problems.
There is no up side.   Look at the inner cities.  

Cheers

Rok, you're getting as good as Frogman in twisting my words; they were quite specific and explicit.

Legitimate:

4 : conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards

Webster

Cheers

Legitimate, when a doctor prescribes something to relieve his patients pain.  When the mental anguish is beyond our comprehension.

Acman, I listened to Bobby Mcferrin with tears in my eyes, I was a medic in USAF; God knows I've witnessed all kinds of pain.

I wonder where mary_jo is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA23rI2xGac

I agree.  The thread is is need of a mary_jo fix (sorry).  

Great Helen Merrill.

https://youtu.be/2V4kdMEJeoI

Not a post from Mary Jo but you might be interested anyway...

Charnett Moffett - Music From Our Soul
Great piano by Cyrus Chestnut on this "standard" (track 3)....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgv0c8IP9hE&list=PLIprspV8mpL6SmXiRZruchPUD6WlYbrnV&index=3

Ghosthouse, that is the most unusual grouping I've ever seen.

I thought "Music From Our Soul" was quite interesting.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioKSZhYc_iE&list=PLIprspV8mpL6SmXiRZruchPUD6WlYbrnV&index=1

Nice clip, ghosthouse.  Well, that fly got out from behind the screen 😉. Thanks for the introduction. Chestnut is one of my very favorite young lions on the piano. First time I heard him was live when he was part of Betty Carter’s trio and have liked his playing since. Mike Clark’s name caught my eye on the album cover. Another favorite whose name for some reason I haven’t seen too often since his HC “Headhunters” days. Great funk drummer and great to hear him play straight ahead. Another young lion whose career I have not followed is Stanley Jordan. Both he and Clark play on “So What” which follows “Mood Indigo” on your link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWWnl4aLjDw&list=PLIprspV8mpL6SmXiRZruchPUD6WlYbrnV&index=4

1974! And, if anyone doubts the huge impact Herbie Hancock has had on the music of the past 50 (!) years. Mike Clark is a bada&s:

https://youtu.be/m0c38Wtdvz0

Geoffkait, this might be the wrong thread to get that question answered.

As many LP's I have by Rudy, I never made that distinction. For a minute or two I got off into nit picking about record differences, and decided it was too much trouble.

orpheus10 

I agree with you its not worth the trouble except if you are in a financial situation where you can afford true audiophile grade gear. A 25,000 - 100,000 dollar audio rig is for people that make at 250,000 - 1,000,000 per year.

ghost house,

Charnett Moffett - Music From Our Soul is an excellent album. But I still miss mary_jo….

Geoff and all, you may find this article of interest. Interesting, some might say controversial and, I think, realistic perspective on RVG’s legacy:

https://sonicscoop.com/2017/03/15/rudy-van-gelder-optometrist-day-recordist-night/

Today’s Listen:

Sonny Stitt -- THE LAST SESSIONS VOLS ONE AND TWO

Excellent notes and booklet.
"Drummer Kenny Clarke is reported to have said that "If there had never been a Bird there would have been a Sonny Stitt." And then there is the story about Charlie Parker meeting Sonny Stitt shortly before Parker’s death in 1955 and telling him, "Man, I’m handing you the keys to the kingdom."
Stitt died of cancer on July 22, 1982. He was 58 years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rnG9xxLIcw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQrCsydZed8 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32uI-Uxw6jw 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K8_vrBO7qw 

Sonny plays both Alto and Tenor throughout. This is a single CD. The notes mention "bye bye Blackbird" but it does not appear on the disc. I think they tried to put two CDs on to one disc.

Cheers

Btw, That ’drug’, called nicotine, killed it’s fair share of people back in the day.

Rok, Stitt really has a beautiful tone on that record.

One of RVG's statements that's never mentioned is, when asked about his take on digital and records, he said "Good riddance to records".


            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Van_Gelder

There is nothing that irritates me more than guys in the "Analog" forum. When these "newbies" buy a record player and wonder why their records don't sound so hot, those guys act like they don't know what's wrong, when they know full well that if you don't have a big buck high end rig, CD's sound better.

@frogman    :-) Laughing about the reminder of my b in l's take on bass solos.  Not hearing that from Charnett at all.  I got onto him because he was the bass player on TW's Civilization recording. 

I'd heard the name Cyrus Chestnut but knew not much else.  There's a lengthy run he does on Mood Indigo that really caught my ear when I first heard it.  Read his bio on Wiki.  The man is gifted and well-schooled.  

@orpheus10   The entire Music From Our Soul recording strikes me as a little "oddball" - though in a good way.  It's a real "stew"  considering the selection of compositions, performers, as well as recording venues (both studio and live).  Hearing and liking Pharoah Sanders' contributions was a happy surprise to me.  

Thanks to all for taking time to give a listen.  Gratifying.  

@pjw - Hope Mary Jo re-visits the thread soon.

Audiophile:
a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.
(webster).

Music has nothing to do with it. CD players are just too simple. Insert disc, hear music. Minimum involvement. Nothing to ’fiddle’ with.

On a Steve Guttenberg episode, an audiophile ’admitted’ that he was interested in sound, not music. He said his wife liked music.   Steve said, "you are the first to admit it".

Some just like the gadgets. Once I understood this, all became clear.

Cheers

There is nothing that irritates me more than guys in the "Analog" forum. When these "newbies" buy a record player and wonder why their records don’t sound so hot, those guys act like they don’t know what’s wrong, when they know full well that if you don’t have a big buck high end rig, CD’s sound better.

Back in the early 90’s I had just put in a good 3 years auditioning and putting together my dream system in my newly remodeled listening room. Had a nice CD player and thought I was done when reading Robert Harley’s Compete Guide to High End Audio and got to the chapter on turntables, wherein he says this is the foundation of a high end system. Still.

Really? How? No way.

But out in my garage was my old Technics SL-1700 just sitting in a box. Still had my 1970’s vintage Kenwood integrated with its built-in phono stage. So I dug it out and hooked it all up. It was around this time that I noticed the cantilever on the Stanton 681EEE cartridge was bent. Dang. Oh well, pliers. Kinked but straightened I put on one of my records.

Out from my speakers came this rich full sound so much better than anything I had heard from any CD anywhere in my searches. You coulda knocked me over with a feather.

Wife comes home that night, hears music, gets all interested asks what is that? Tom Petty. No, I mean what is it? What do you mean? It sounds so good. She was right. It did sound good. She had no idea. Could not see it was a record. The turntable was down on the floor, out of sight, so of course it had to be CD. That was after all all we had. When she came in and had a look she was as amazed as me.

Okay so let’s review:  
1970’s DD turntable.  
Bent cantilever.  
Patch cords. 
1970’s phono stage.  
Grand total $700 new, or about $0 at then used prices. Before the Technics started appreciating. Beat CD, according to double- no, wait! triple blind testing.
Anyone says you need to spend a lot to sound good, either no idea what they’re talking about, or they’re talking ideology not sound. Or both.

Millercarbon, your ears are 180 degrees out from mine and millions of other people who trashed their old TT's and sold their records.

I didn't sell my records but trashed the TT. Without going into a lot of detail, I am presently waiting for a spare $600 bucks for 2 NOS tubes that are the only one's which suit my phono. Correction "Upscale" raised the price to $350 apiece.

Analog nirvana comes at a steep price; a price that puts me temporarily out of commission.


I am absolutely positive that what you presented would not meet my requirements.

@frogman 

Back atcha' on the Herbie Hancock.  I have spent little time listening to HH's jazz funk.  When it first came out I wrote it off as him cashing in.  Amazing how much I knew in my 20s.  

Listened to Actual Proof via the link you supplied.  Enjoyed it.  The music is much more complex and substantial than my younger self thought. Quite a few commented there about Mike Clark's drumming...and rightly so, I think.  Quick quick quick and light handed (if that's even possible in a funk setting).   

Just recently stumbled onto HH's "VSOP Quintet" on the live double album, VSOP (1977).  Was amazed at the performance of Maiden Voyage that opens things.  Freddie Hubbard in particular lights it up! in his soloing.  But circling back to jazz funk, side 4 contains two HH jazz funk compositions...Hang Up your Hang Ups (from Man-Child) and Spider from Secrets.  

Here's Spider from the VSOP Live.  Kind of a slow build so patience required.  The drummer is James Levi (not Mike Clark).  Nice work from Herbie at around the midway point. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2J2w9enLZ0

Herbie Hancock sailed through all sub jazz genres with flying colors; he is probably the most innovative keyboardist ever. That is some boss "Funk".

Refarding the article about the RVG, if that is of any significance to anyone, the author is mostly correct, but he forgot one very important thing to add. It is the mastering of those tapes and later work done by different people, that makes the ’recording’ as such and that is what we finally listen as a product in a form of cd or lp. There are very big differences between same albums that are mastered by different people and again, differences between formats (lp. sacd or cd) So, I guess, only the lucky ones who listened original tapes or their copies prior their mastering, are the ones who can really know how good or not RVG’ s work was

o10, " they know full well that if you don't have a big buck high end rig, CD's sound better."

Well, that's one opinion.  I don't happen to agree.  If you have some basic mechanical knowledge you could buy an AR-XA table and arm for example for maybe $200 and do a basic restoration (clean up, re-lube, new belt, adjust the arm) and install a new Grado or Audio Technica cartridge for $300 (tops).  I don't think $500 is "big buck" but with that and any number of original release jazz LPs in decent condition (may require a little time in a thrift store if you don't already have any) one could get very good sonics and deep enjoyment from the music.  Some would argue with more depth and body to the music than a CD system for 3-4 X that.  I say that because I've done it a couple of times for friends.

But this is not the Analog forum so maybe not the place to discuss such things.  So to each their own. ;^)

Pryso, we discuss what ever we feel like discussing on this thread, although the "deleter in chief" might erase it.

Maybe I have a much better digital rig, because it took 3K for me to just equal it, and that was with a Rega tweeked to the max, plus tube phono; although the phono with NOS tubes put it over the top.

Alex, most of my records are original, and me and Rok bought the best 100 jazz tunes that were on CD, and those new CD's are better than my original records.

I have a "Marantz" CD player that's rated "Class A" by Stereophile.

I agree completely with pryso.  That AR was my introduction to good analog sound.  
Alex, makes a very good point re the importance of the skill of the mastering engineer.  However, as they say, “you can’t polish a turd”.  

When you consider what happens to the sound wave once it leaves the musical instrument, the question becomes, what are you trying to recreate?

None, of it sounds ’live’, and none of it sounds like what went into the mics / mixing boards, so, what is all this about.

The most you can hope for is a system that sounds like a good recording of a musical event. No noise, no distortion and decent dynamic range and freq response. That’s all there is folks. ANY CD player does that.

Golden ears???? Do you know how many people are killed each year because they could not hear a train coming. Human senses, compared to other animals, suck. All we have is a brain, which most refuse to use.

Cheers

Peter Aczel, the Ayn Rand of audio.   Read him.

The truth shall make you free.

https://www.ecoustics.com/articles/ten-biggest-lies-audio/

Cheers

FOR SALE:  Telephone pole.  Well used, but perfectly functional.  Make offer.

Lyle Mays - R.I.P.

Jafant, where are you getting this report? 

I see where his old roommate Pat Coil, has reported Lyle Mays death. No other news. Hopefully his account was hacked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbALZ6h-7Y