No Nsp, I never saw Lee Morgan.
It's sad when the perpetrator of the crime is looking down at the body on the floor, wondering how it got there.
A close acquaintance of mine is no longer with us because he said something smart to the women he had just jilted, a day before he was to be married to another women. Women in St. Louis carry guns for a good reason, certainly not with the intention of shooting their lover, but he should not have said what he said; unfortunately, he's well aware of that now.
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OP,
Wise One and Spiritual:
Spiritual was just that, spiritual. Loved them both. Had he lived longer, I think he would have become a solo act. Do you ever get the feeling that he thought the group was holding him back? On 'lush life', three of the tunes were just Coltrane, bass and drums. No piano.
Why did he always have Tyner as his piano player. Was it because he thought Tyner best continued his ideals during the piano solos? Was this the same with Monk and Rouse? Or any other well known combination.
If you just concentrate on the late, late stuff, you miss the fact that he was a / the great / greatest Saxophone player.
Cheers |
Rok, the late late stuff isn't really that late, he just never recorded it, but left that to the live audiences as I related it in my observation.
There is a very good reason for those well known combinations; they could almost read each others minds.
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Rok, what we were discussing in regard to deprivation and depravity is in the news; a 14 year old stabbed that young lady in NYC multiple times.
I wonder what generation was he?
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*****
a 14 year old stabbed that young lady in NYC multiple times.****
I have the solution, but it's draconian.
Cheers |
Rok, you stated that you heard no difference between amps; neither did your favorite reviewer. The differences are subtle for me, and not worth paying for when you get to very expensive, but I'm sure differences exist for those who can hear them.
A long time ago when I'm sure my hearing was much better than it is now, I participated in a frequency response experiment; it was displayed on a decibel meter. When the frequency got past 16K the apparent volume began to drop off. Past 18K I could barely hear it. At 20K, no matter how loud he played it, all was silent.
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Rok, with mosquitoes, you exterminate the swamp, but what if the swamp exists in every single solitary metropolitan city in the USA.
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I just saw something on the news that reminded me of "Casandra Wilson"; it was about Jackson Mississippi where that pretty lady still lives as far as I know. (don't know why) It seems it's flooding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU5jqVOW6gk&list=PLB6373FB1DE69CBA5She really grows on you; at first, I thought she was one one "Quirky" vocalist, but I have so many of her recordings that now I like "Quirky". |
orpheus10There are unanswered questions there regarding Lee Morgans demise but his wife's interview was cut short . once the person is gone do the answer's really matter? It can't bring them back.
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o10Most hunnan speech is between 4 -8khz. At 16khz you are getting to the highest frequencies. Most older people can't hear that high.
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Cassandra Wilson:
She is hard to classify. I have a few of her CDs but don't think of her as a Jazz artist. She is not a Blues artist either. If she still lives in Jackson, that might be the problem. Better get herself to NYC. :(
Cheers
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OP,
Differences in Audio Amps:
Ran across a cartoon, but can't get it to this thread:
Two bums / homeless guys laying on the street between trash containers. One says to the other, "once I had a family, a good job, owned my own home, then one day I discovered I could hear differences among audio components." Take heed.
Have you ever noticed the type music used to demonstrate this ultra high end stuff?? Always some soundscape stuff, or an over age hippie strumming on a guitar. Why don't they use real music.??
Because they are into sounds, not music. Otherwise they would use Beethoven or Mingus or The Stones etc..... Hog Calling Blues???
With Mingus, Kirk and Dolphy going crazy, you gonna pick one amp over another? I think not.
Cheers
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Rok, I get where you’re coming from and I agree that your attitude re equipment is the right approach......for you. I have no doubt that when you listen to music on your system that you get far more of the message of the music than many who listen on ultra expensive systems. That’s because when you listen to music you, Rok, go to the music first and foremost and the ear candy aspect of hifi takes a back seat. That’s a good thing. Your equipment is more than capable of delivering the message. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that the perceived differences in the sound of amplifiers are not real. They are very real and they can be very significant. The differences and improvements in the sound of the timbre of instruments and very subtle rhythmic nuances are very real and FOR SOME listeners they can allow a deeper look into the music. On the other hand, some listeners actually find that level of resolution a kind of distraction. It is a pointless argument. I think that your system is more than capable of delivering the message; but, given what you have described about your system, I think that you would be surprised at how much more music you might hear with a good amp driving your Polks. Awesome Trane clips; all classics. That “Lush Life” has been a favorite for years. Simply incredible artist in the truest sense of the word. Greatest saxophone player? Maybe. Greatest Jazz musician who played saxophone? Without a doubt; by a long shot. You posed some great questions. Rhythm section holding him back? Great observation. I completely agree and was exactly what I kept feeling as I listened to “Chasing Another Trane”, Felt like Roy Haynes was not in the same musical universe as Trane’s; something Elvin Jones never had a problem with, Some favorite Trane (so much to choose from): https://youtu.be/dN9MMnQyAp8https://youtu.be/w5QGBHavF0Uhttps://youtu.be/nrcCDJrwMIEhttps://youtu.be/lJ7QTRzV9RMYou asked, why McCoy? McCoy and Trane lived in similar musical universes which had a deep sense of spirituality in the message. That level of musical “simpatico” doesn’t happen that often. Trane with McCoy months before Trane passed (1967): https://youtu.be/Z594RQQs2oYMcCoy, 1975. Pretty obvious lineage: https://youtu.be/IrZkbSeyF6M |
I thought we had moved on from“Somethin Else” . Alas. That players sometimes play the same tune in different ways goes without saying. Now, re the two versions of “Love For Sale” :
Thanks for making my point for me. What is the most important thing that both have in common? On both, it is a Miles, not Cannonball, that makes the statement of the melody, Just as in the case of a vocalist band leader who sings the tune and then the sidemen in the band follow with solos, Miles “sings” the melody and the sidemen (Cannonball) follow with solos; both times, Why is it not Cannonball playing the melody on “his” record with Miles soloing afterwards? |
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The Frogman:
*****
I think that you would be surprised at how much more music you might hear with a good amp driving your Polks.*****
You got my attention with the mention of Timbre. What would you consider a good amp? I'm in a buying mood, ordered headphones today.
Expression:
This would not considered 'accessible' Coltrane, but as I listened I wondered if the 'fault' was Coltrane or his group. I tired to block out the group (impossible), but any confused or disjointed playing seem to be coming from them, and not Coltrane.
Comments.
Cheers
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O-10, with respect, there is no logic to your argument. First of all, if you want to go down that road, you can start by suggesting that it be called a “Ronnie Cuber” album. That is Ronnie Cuber, not Adams. Secondly, it is not about logic; it is about practice and tradition. Mingus was a rhythm section player. Bass is not a typical melody instrument in a Jazz band. Mingus’ records were first and foremost about Mingus the composer, not Mingus the soloist...usually.
O-10, we can let it go now. You have your opinion and I have mine. I’m good with that. You want to believe you’re correct; I’m good with that too.
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Check again Frogman, that is "Pepper Adams" not Ronnie Cuber. |
“Expression”:
I would agree it is not the most accessible, but it was a direct and demonstrably natural place for his playing to be at. I certainly would not think of attaching “fault” to any of the music. Not disjointed at all, but free of the usual constraints of comfortable and recognizable form. Not your typical “Chin, Chin, kaChin kind of a Jazz. Pure and free “Expression”. He would be dead a few months later.
If you follow all the clips posted (and more) with an eye for dates and a timeline you can hear his playing heading in that direction. I believe the quote you posted was something along the lines of Trane “found it impossible to coast”. To a creative artist coasting is playing what he has done or played before. Think about it, if he’s always trying to play something new....is it any wonder that’s were his playing ended up? We may find it “inaccessible”, but there is a certain beauty to the process.
What amps are you using now?
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This is not about 'opinion', this is about fact and definition. |
O-10, please, this is really getting silly, childish and you are embarrassing yourself. You went back and edited the clip and changed it to the original version with Adams; different album cover and all. You’ve made the same mistake twice before with those clips. I’m done with the topic. This is what you posted first; it was still open in my menu bar:: (Cuber sounds little like Adams.) https://youtu.be/__OSyznVDOY |
***** What amps are you using now?*****
Harman kardon HK 3490 and Marantz PM 7200. I have a Yamaha M-60 that has been in the closet for a long time.
Keep in mind that I am not a member of the ’mega yacht’ crowd.
Cheers |
Have you tried the Oppo directly into the M-60? That’s the first thing that I would try. You may find a nice improvement in transparency. If you want to really improve timbre there is nothing like tubes. They are not cheap and are not as hassle free as ss, but there are some nice fairly inexpensive tube integrateds from Jolida and Cayin. I don’t like spending other people’s $ 😰 |
*****
Have you tried the Oppo directly into the M-60?*****
I will try the oppo & yamaha.. What do you think of Parasound? Would that be an upgrade from what I have now?
Cheers |
First, the Miles Davis cult stated that KOB was better than "Somethin Else" now that's not good enough; next they claim that "Somethin Else" is in reality a Miles Davis Album.
As a Cannonball fan, there is no way I'm going to allow this; facts are not fiction.
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Rok, in this case, it's not about your bank account, it's about your ear account. From the discussions we've had over the years, I would say you're good just like you are.
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**** First, the Miles Davis cult stated that KOB was better than "Somethin Else" ****
No, O-10, that’s not how this silly argument started. No one stated that KOB was “better” than SE. YOU went out of your way to put down KOB and stated that SE was not only “better” than KOB, but that “there are more records than one can shake a stick at that are better than KOB”. The whole concept of “better” being a silly notion when speaking of two records representative on two entirely different periods in the life of an innovative giant like Miles and a ground breaking record like KOB which is entirely different from SE conceptually.
You like SE’s more traditional vibe more than KOB’s modal sound. That’s fine and no one is trying to make you change your mind. Can we please move on now? |
Kind of Blue is a studio album by American jazz trumpeter Miles Davis. It was recorded on March 2 and April 22, 1959, at Columbia's 30th Street Studio in New York City, and released on August 17 of that year by Columbia Records.
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Somethin' Else is a jazz album by saxophonist Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, released on Blue Note Records in 1958. Also on the session is trumpeter Miles Davis in one of his handful of recording dates for Blue Note.
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orpheus10,
Do you realize that you have spent the better part of 4 days now making sure everyone is aware that "Somethin Else" is a Cannonball Adderley album?
The thing is we all know this so why keep at it?
By the way I have "Somethin Else" on 3 separate discs. SACD hybrid, 24/192 pcm HDAD, and a RVG remaster. All 3 sound different yet all 3 are good.
Of course the SACD and HDAD sound better then the RVG RM. I'm happy I bought the DSD versions when they came out as they are selling for ridiculous prices now.
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frogman, That KOB was a seminal recording that ushered in the "Modal Jazz" with such a unique and beautiful body of work, but yet still "accessible" to the masses is a testament to the fact that Miles was always evolving and not afraid to lose some of his fans to try new sounds. In 2019, it was certified Quintuple Platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) for shipments of over five million copies in 2003 it was ranked number 12 on Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 greatest albums of all time. It was voted number 14 in Colin Larkin's All Time Top 1000 Albums. Kind of Blue isn't merely an artistic highlight for Miles Davis, it's an album that towers above its peers, a record generally considered as the definitive jazz album, a universally acknowledged standard of excellence. Why does Kind of Blue possess such a mystique? Perhaps because this music never flaunts its genius. ... It's the pinnacle of modal jazz — tonality and solos build from the overall key, not chord changes, giving the music a subtly shifting quality. ... It may be a stretch to say that if you don't like Kind of Blue, you don't like jazz — but it's hard to imagine it as anything other than a cornerstone of any jazz collection. Seminal - 1(of a work, event, moment, or figure) strongly influencing later developments |
Pjw, I'll quit when I get good and ready, not when you or Frogman tell me to quit. |
You and Frogman tell me to quit, yet you both go on and on; there's something wrong with that picture.
Nobody ever said they didn't like KOB, it's just that some of us like SE even more.
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Rok, it really would be unfair and probably unproductive for me to give you specific amp recommendations. I don’t know your particular amps, but I’m sure that they sound good. My recommendation is simply to stay open minded about the impact that a very good (musical) amp can have on the listening experience.
I have played with this stuff for many years and in different price ranges, but haven’t heard any of the amps that you own except for the Yamaha which a friend used to own. I think it is a good and probably a better sounding amp than the amp section in your integrated amps. I’m very curious what you think of the Oppo/Yamaha. |
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Rok, very important if you do decide to try the Yamaha again. Sounds like you haven’t used it in while. Play at least an entire CD before judging; needs to warm up...seriously. |
frogman, That Cannonball album is excellent. I have 2 versions of it. Here is another Miles/Cannonball album I have recorded on 2 dates in 1958 with the future KOB band . There is some controversy about this album because it was reissued a few times after its initial release on LP and CD with some of the reissues having extra songs an/or bad sound quality. The original LP release 1n 1974 contained 4 songs recorded live at the Plaza Hotel NYC and 4 recorded at Columbia's 30th St. studio. Its the same exact personnel that recorded KOB the following year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvOoIdBDHH0 |
I have an Emotiva XPA - 2 amp. Around 5 -10 years ago they were the best amps available in their price range. I paid 700.00 for mine brand new from Emotiva in 2013.
Its a class AB 2 channel amp with 250wpc. It literally made my front JBL towers "come to life" it weighs 85 pounds!
I am not sure why but Emotiva stopped manufacturing their "audiophile grade" amps at a working mans price and used Emotiva'a are selling for double their original price and sometimes more then that.
I heard their 500 watt monoblocks were class A - AB and are highly sought after by audiophiles. If I remember correctly they were selling brand new in 2012 - 13 for 1200.00 dollars!
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The Frogman,
I will take it out on the patio before I turn it on. :) Just in case there is smoke and sparks. I did fire it up several years ago and everything worked perfectly. Even the meters. It was built before the throw away society was in full swing. I think I got this in the mid-80s.
Cheers |
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What can one say about that record that hasn’t been said a thousand times. Awesome.
Make sure you have speakers hooked up to the amp before you turn it on. Any speakers. |
Miles vs Cannonball:
Does the 'Music Business' enter into this talk of whose album is it?
i.e. Legal requirements or personal commitments to appear on sessions? Whose name goes on the top etc... This happens a lot in Hollywood, or used to.
Cheers
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You got it! Happens all the time.
Perhaps not so much in this case. They are co-leaders and I’m sure that was the intention. Notice the order of the names; alphabetical, the default way to do it when the performers are to be considered equals: “Cannonball and Coltrane”. “Adderley and Coltrane” doesn’t have nearly as much ring 😊. Other records that shall remain nameless....what you suggest definitely happens or are factors. |
rok, a word of caution with your Yamaha. I’m not an EE or a tech, but electrolytic caps go bad with age. There is no universal life expectancy I’m aware of, some say 10 years, others say 15. The point is they will leak or fail at some point. If your Yamaha is 35 years old there is a very high probability it will have problems. It may still play but it certainly won’t perform at its design capability.
The fact it has been in a closet (not being used) makes the problem worse. Capacitors need to be charged (turned on) with some regularity to last as long as possible.
I speak from experience. I had two amps in storage for some time before I got around to selling them. Both were more than 10 years old and both had been idle the last few years. Both also failed on turn-on and required repair to sell them. And yes, both worked fine the last time I tried either of them before setting them aside.
Sorry but this also raises the question; how old are your HK and Marantz amps? If either is 10 or more years then even though they work they may not be up to their designed performance. Restoring any of your amps should cost much less than buying a new one. But if you do consider a new amp I would say one of the Parasound models should be a reasonable choice.
PS -- I think you hit upon the answer to the "Somethin Else" album credit. |
Rok, have electrolytic capacitors replaced on anything over 10 years old if you want it to sound as good as it can.
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