Jazz for aficionados

Orpheus, I do not use pc audio, listen only to original cd's and I am also very carefull which editions I buy.
Changed few systems in last decade, at one point had all Burmester top of the line set up (except speakers), also my last cd/sacd player was Dcs with added clock, it would be rude to even mention its price and still I find the music from even modest analog rig more 'natural' in lack of better word, never mind the rest, which when evaluated in audiophile terms could be perceived as 'better' sound.
Music on sacd's, new production is great, but old production on that format, even when its from Analogue productions still cant beat good lp, imho
If I could afford it, I would buy only records and would have only analog set up,

Frogman, do you like RVG's editions or not? 
Maybe its a silly questions, in sense that they contain such essential music, that sometimes sound becomes less important,no matter the paradox of that sentence

rok2id
Peter Aczel, the Ayn Rand of audio.  Read him.

>>>>Spare us.

alex,

My friend has a turn table and tube preamp (phono) and tube amp. He has decent speakers. He lives an hour from me so I'm not over there much. The last time I went was to listen to that Joe Pass LP you sent me.

The music sounded great on the TT setup. Most of my digital music also sounds great to me. Not all but most. It depends on the source. 

If I was in a better financial situation, with more free time, I would probably try a good analog set - up. That not being the case I have an Oppo SACD player, a top of the line Yamaha AVR, Emotiva 200 wpc for front R and L tower speakers, and 2 matched subwoofers. I switch to the towers and subs for music in "pure audio" sound (stereo and mono)

I have a 5:2 setup. All speakers are the JBL Studio L series released in 2005. I have the L-890 towers front R - L, LC2 center, L820 surrounds, and 2 L8400P subwoofers(600 Watts continuous 1200 watts peak internal digital amp). When listening to music I have a total of 400 watts through the front towers via the 85 pound Emotiva amp (true 200 wpc@ 8ohms) and 1200 watts continuous 2400 watts peak power with the dual subs. 

My whole rig was around 5k which was perfect for me. The 7 JBL speakers was the most expensive part of my gear.

Alex, I think you answered your own question: “essential music”. I think the author of the linked article feels much the same way that I do and why I referred to it as a realistic assessment. 

I love many RVG recordings and my format preferences are exactly like yours. I buy recordings first and foremost for the music and if the sound quality is great that is icing on the cake. Of course, I prefer and choose a particular edition of a recording that I want that is known to have superior sound whenever possible ($?). However, to be honest, I don’t pay as much attention, time or money to that aspect of record collecting as the quality of my all tube audio system might suggest. My preference is still a good sounding quiet Lp pressing for the reasons that you point out, but I buy CD’s of new as well as reissued music simply because that is the only format that the music is available in. Unlike the moderate amount of attention that I pay to Lp pressing differences I pay little to no attention to different CD versions. I am well aware of the differences in sound quality of different CD reissues; but since like you I find a decent Lp pressing to sound more natural than even the better CD’s, I don’t pay that much attention to different CD versions. That may seem like strange logic, but that is my approach and I’m sure that the very good quality of my turntable setup has a lot to do with it. Perhaps stranger still, but I find at least some value in hearing the “inferior” sound of some recordings. There are general recorded sound aesthetics that are representative of different historical periods in the music, different labels and different engineers and in some ways I enjoy the context that some of these recordings put the music in. In some cases these “dated” recordings offer a certain type of unadulterated musical detail that I enjoy. My collection consists of approximately 2,500 Lp’s and a few hundred CD’s.

The greatness of the music on so many of RVG’s recordings goes without saying. From the standpoint of sound I really like many of his recordings; some not as much. I don’t particularly like the general sound aesthetic of some of his CTI recordings and prefer the less produced, more natural sounding recordings like some of his Prestige and Blue Note’s. For me, some of RVG’s very best sound wise are his Prestige mono’s like Sonny Rollins “Saxophone Colossus” and Miles’ “Working/Steaming” sessions; beautifully natural sound. One of my favorite Blue Note stereos sound wise is an OP favorite, Cannonball’s (really a Miles session) “Somethin Else”. Iconic recording engineer.

I hope that was a fairly “straight” answer to your question. Regards.

Paul. sometimes less is more. 
Like I said, I have had few systems and not long ago I had Dcs Puccini with clock,as source, with Arc Ref 3 and Avantgarde Acoustic active speakers.
With music that we discuss here (all older production) I have discovered that many recordings have become less enjoyable, meaning that I could hear all the 'details', including the limits of recordings and masterings.
Usually I know all the players on some record, than I had to remember the mastering engineenir as well.

I think that trend in industry (as I listen to different systems that my frineds have) is such that many new gear is 'less musical' and 'more analytical'.

My choice now is all tubes, p.single ended amp and preamp, together with speakers that have higher impedance (8ohm min)

Like I said, if I could find and get all music that I like on vinyl, I would not look for anything else.

Frogman, have nothing to add. Perhaps only that I have many Verve remasters, usually great sound, much better than RVG last edition of remasters ( older Blue Note editions sound much better to me)

I'm glad we're having this conversation here; "analogers" are prone to exaggeration, but I believe and trust my fellow music lovers.

I always had to spend more money on analog to equal CD, and now I know why; all CD players are not created equal, and my "Marantz" is evidently better than most. It's taken me years to come to that conclusion, and it answers the question why I have to spend more on analog to equal it.

Alex, I have a PC "Guru" who is worth his weight in gold, otherwise I might not have it either because I don't understand computers. What's funny is when I call him over, and ask a question about computers, he gives me that look that says, "You wouldn't understand it even after I explained it". That look means, just tell me what you want accomplished.

If you had Burmester, what you call modest might be better than what the "exaggerators" call modest.

My description of sound is "Either the thing produces "Holography" or it doesn't" I don't know what "natural" means.

While we agree on old and new CD's, I'm not sure about this statement for me; "If I could afford it, I would buy only records and would have only analog set up".

Rok, I know you're taking this all in, and since you no longer have records, I don't suggest you buy any. If you have excess funds, I suggest a DAC for your PC output, and upgrade in CD player if you still have loose change.

Back to Alex's "If I could afford"; I would most certainly have a very expensive "analog rig", but in the meantime, it's flip a coin as to which is better in regard to what I have presently.

I have three systems in one rack. I have three Marantz CD players. One cost 350, one 500 and one SACD at 900 dollars. I also have a Onkyo SACD player at 369, and an Oppo SACD player at 500.

I have all this connected to three amps. I play each ’system’ for a week or so at a time, then change to the next one for a week or so.

All play thru the same speakers.

What differences do I hear between the different amps and players?

No difference at all. Between CDs, yes, there is a difference. Between SACD and redbook.

Timbre is the most important thing.
All forms of noise and distortion were defeated long ago. Including the ones the marketing guys made up.

In classical, there is a slight difference between different Orchestras. Bigger differences between conductors.

Cheers

Btw, DACs are the new wire, or bricks, or cable lifters, or directional fuses   etc.........   Spare me Indeed!!

Tube, or SS is not about the quality of one over the other, it just that as an objective "music lover", tube pre is the only way to go. I listened to SS Audio Research and rushed it back to the dealer, while I considered Tube ARC the best.

Just like in ice cream there are many different flavors, and so it is with tube preamps, I'm not pushing one tube over the other, but I am pushing tube over SS.

Rok, we might have the same CD player; I'm quite satisfied with mine.

OP,
Mine are CD 5004, CD 6005 and SA 8001. The SA8001 is 14 years old. When it dies, will replace it with a Yamaha. Some one at Marantz decided that their latest 1000 dollar range player would not play SACD.

Cheers

Rok, I assume you already have this;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVXuCFzK7s


You already use your play list the same as me, and this is the cheapest way to improve the music coming from your PC.

While there are differences in interconnects, my computer "Guru" told me that what comes with computer gear is sufficient, no need for a high end USB lead.

Your guru is correct.  You, as a defender of 'the people' should be aware that for every item made, there will soon be the models for, just folks, and then the models for the 'elites'.   As sure as night follows day.   

But, the audio scene is changing, albeit slowly.  More and more moderately price gear is being reviewed favorably.   A handful of folks buying uber expensive gear, cannot keep this industry afloat.

Without change, soon your amp choices will be, junk at some big box store, or Pass Labs.   Nothing in between.   Which is another reason I have so much 2-channel stuff.
 
Cheers

Orpheus, my experience is very different.
I think many things 'matter' in audio (including all cables) but its up to any individual to decide how far he will go in pursuing such endeavour, as building a very good system is.
Also, level of enjoyment is not necessery conected to invested funds, everything is in 'the head' of the listener or observer...

What I ment, when I said 'If I could afford' is that price of buying big collection of jazz music on lp's is much higher than having an expensive system.
I've had some pricey gear ,for exmp.Burmester 001, 011, 956mk2  (in fact its cheaper in Europe than in US) and so on, but to buy 2000 records would cost me double of that, or even much more, because I bought my gear in second hand and that I would not do if I would buy records.

Aldo I listen music on cd's and on quite decent equipment, I still think that analog sound is just 'better', more 'natural', even when cost of the gear is much in favour of digital.

Agree 100%.

No OP, I do not have that.   My computer and stereo system are completely separate.  No connection at all.  No need, since they are in the same room.

Apparently you are more advanced than I am.   I am not even sure what 'streaming' is.   I have a sound card in my computer and Logitech Z-623 speakers.   The speakers are awesome.   The only computer music I listen to are the music clips submitted on aficionados, and rarely, CDs played in the computer drive.

My rig is as basic as it gets.

Cheers

In 1960, I bought "Mingus Ah Um Charles Mingus" and I only had a one box record player in one room at the barracks, and I enjoyed it very much. I have a high end rig now, and I'm still enjoying it. I would rather listen to the music posted on this thread on a one box record player, than listen to the music posted elsewhere on this forum on the best rig in the world.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7hoX7golZI&list=PLiN-7mukU_REK9zBMvZoNERNvhovxnsE5

When discussing audio gear, I always think of a photo I once saw of the group, Lambert, Hendricks & Ross.   They were sitting on folding chairs, apparently at rehearsal, between them, on the floor,  was a plastic record player playing a LP.   They were listening very intently.

I often wondered about what they were listening to / for.   If they could hear / get what they needed from that, then my Thorens  / SME was just fine.

Cheers

I’m sure that plastic record player was just a prop for the pic.  Your Thorens/SME, however, is more than just fine; good, classic combo. 

My new favorite instrument is "bass clarinet" it's really different. Oran Etkin is one of the featured players.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvB0f5akEoQ

Because Miles is featured on Cannonball's album "Somthin Else", there are those who want to say this is a Miles Davis album.

Miles is a "sideman" on this album; repeat after me, "Sideman"!

All the music on this album is Cannonball's, not Miles. Cannonball didn't write all the music, but it sounds the way he wants it to sound, not the way Miles wants it to sound. If that were the case it would sound like KOB; nuff said.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut5qbImhS9s&list=PLTIb4fKCEAevQGcDKFIXdimOXsMK4uVNv&index=4

Silly me, I would have thought that it would be far more interesting (and friendly) to have a discussion about an interesting topic and in the process to try and understand what the reason that someone has a different opinion on this topic might be, instead of challenging it by shutting the door in a heavy handed way. An opinion, btw, originally expressed and not meant as any kind of challenge to anyone else’s. It might also be an opportunity to look at the very interesting topic of band leader/sideman dynamics. I’ll go ahead and push the door open anyway and hope that there might be positive discussion. Here’s why I (and others) feel this way; that the record is IN MANY WAYS a Cannonball date in name only:

-By the time “Somethin Else” was recorded (1957) Miles was already a very established leader and universally considered a giant in Jazz. Importantly, the size of his ego was well known. Cannonball was a relative newcomer and had recorded his first record as a leader less than two years prior. He had been recruited by Miles as a sideman and was part of Miles’ then current band.

-Even the liner notes point out that it was Miles, not Cannon, who chose most of the material.

-It was Miles, not Cannon, who composed the title cut “Somethin Else”.

-It was Miles, not Cannon, who makes the first significant musical statement on the record, on the opening cut “Autumm Leaves”.

-Haven’t counted, but Miles plays many of the first solos on the record.

-It is Miles, not Cannon, who is heard at one point addressing producer Alfred Lions and asking “is that what you want Alfred?”. A role that is usually reserved for a leader not a sideman.

Fantastic record made two years BEFORE “Kind Of Blue” (1959). Two years was an eternity in the history of Miles’ ever changing styles. The music on the record is very much like what Miles was doing at that time (1957), so the fact that it doesn’t sound like KOB and its groundbreaking modal sound is irrelevant.

Just an opinion; it does have Cannonball’s name on the cover.

A debate is what it is; here's Miles Davis sounding like "Miles Davis" on Autumn Leaves;


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiE8-NlMbSM



Here's Miles Davis sounding like Cannonball wants him to sound;



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpB7-8SGlJ0


I rest my case, the music speaks for itself.

One of the most interesting sideman/ leader dynamics is Donald Byrd/ Pepper Adams.

Max Roach/ Clifford Brown; who was the leader and who was the sideman?

Bird and Diz is never referred to as   Diz and Bird, I wonder why not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovCpL1zjBgI
      

I have no idea what it is about certain records, but I prefer "Bird" records to CD’s; maybe it is because that’s the way I originally heard them; even the record noise seems so appropriate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcEN21wTy64&list=PLccpwGk_xup-FEyUWMOBms5XKycr0ueBb

o10, I was quite surprised to read this from you: "Here’s Miles Davis sounding like Cannonball wants him to sound".

With your deep experience with jazz personalities do you really feel Miles’ ego by the late ’50s would allow him to play as someone else wanted? I just can’t imagine that happening, even as a sideman on someone else’s recording, as commonly credited in this case.  His approach on that recording sounds pretty much like the other things he was doing at that time.  And given how ofter Miles changed his style, just as frog mentioned, can you compare anything he did in 1957 to that from 1964? 

BTW, I never owned a Marantz CD player but I’ve heard models a few friends own, good choice.

Precisely; on all counts....I did own a Marantz ’though; good player.

No matter what, referring to some players as 'sidemen', seems downright 'incredulous'.  As the OP might say.

Cheers

Pryso, evidently my words failed me because I would never convey what you stated; however, the music links I posted spoke for me; they are as different as night and day, yet both are titled "Autumn Leaves". I believed they conveyed my thoughts without words.

Sideman, (Jazz) a member of a band or a jazz group other than the leader.

This is in honor of Lyle Mays; I saw him and the Pat Metheney Group on the Admiral Riverboat in St. Louis about this time, they were fantastic, this is my favorite tune by him;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4jIbLYE3gQ

Lyle Mays and Pat Metheney were like Peanut butter and jelly; bacon and eggs; you can't have one without the other. While not "mainstream jazz" their music to me is like the Missouri landscape after you leave the metropolitan area, it's wide open and free.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac9x6BcQLjc&list=PLIOE7mhMWLE1_2PbamjINjRzUFJm3u3DL


       
Sometimes Lyle's music just grabs you, and at other times it requires a calm introspective mood to hear into the music.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvf8UT3uqPY


We will miss Lyle, but we will always have his music to keep his memory alive.



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-wDHE7-Ik&list=RDAx-wDHE7-Ik&start_radio=1

I know youse guys wont believe this but "So What". I was sitting in my listening chair dozing off when the tune "Somthin Else" popped on. (I listen the same as someone listens to the radio, I turn the rig on and music starts playing from my play-list)

I was little groggy, and I didn't immediately recognize the music, but it excited me, and I had to wake up and listen. Unlike every body else, I didn't put on a record, or push a CD in, I had to identify everything from what I heard.

After I realized it was the title tune from the album under discussion, my ears really perked up.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kag0vqS8CU


From the opening notes to the last fade out; this tune is "Somethin Else"
After that I put KOB in the CD player; "So What", my favorite tune on that album began to play.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylXk1LBvIqU


Cool Miles, blow cool Miles, as much as I like your cool sound, you don't excite me like you did on "Somethin Else" and Cannonball was just blowing his A-- off on that tune.

Nice, but after all is said and done, it comes in second place compared to "Somethin Else".


You can cut my legs off and call me "shorty", but my opinion will never change on that.

Maybe this be the best. Ain’t trying to start a ruckus, Just saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTonhINTeXQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpxLihgVwk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-GdNgJgq64

And they did it the hard way, LIVE.
Cheers

Today's Listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT37-5IE4yE

Cheers

Warning, woman on the thread. Hide all your cigarettes and adult magazines...or maybe not.

Just dropping by to say warm hello...

They asked once an old man, an atheist, why he celebrated Christmas if he wasn’t believer. The old man said: Are you crazy? You’re saying I should miss the chance to have a party?

Same here...
Happy Valentine’s day guys. This party is not be missed. Hashtag roses and hearts. :--))

What else? Chet of course...
https://youtu.be/UOEIQKczRPY

I have changed my hair for you, just to let you know.

Almost forgot. If there is among you anyone who does not appreciate Chet singing, calm down, I have prepared the alternative for today’s celebration day:
https://youtu.be/FzG4uDgje3M
1.9B views, just noticing...