***** But "No soul, no jazz"? I just don't understand that.*****
He should have said, "No Blues, No Jazz, Know Blues, know Jazz"
One of those pesky things called facts.
Cheers
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
31,720 responses Add your response
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Pryso, I agree with every word you wrote. A different style does not have to mean lacking emotion or “soul”. I hope my comparison of Brubeck’s piano style to Dr. John’s did not imply that. I also agree with your comment about why the bias against Brubeck may exist. As you point out, Brubeck was an extraordinarily well rounded musician with training and vast experience in several musical disciplines. Interestingly, the bias against that kind of background has been demonstrated here quite regualrly. Glad to see that, at least for some, that attitude is changing. Still, as always, the contradictions abound. Personally, I don’t believe that for music to have “soul” it has to be drenched in “blue notes” or have a certain feel. Soul is an expression of......what else?.....one’s soul; and one’s musical soul is determined by one’s background and life experience no matter the ethnic history. The black experience is not the only one that has “soul”. Try telling a great Japanese shakuhachi player that he has no soul; or a great Russian orchestra that they don’t play with soul. As far as what it takes to qualify for being called “jazz”? Well, no point in going there for the 100th time. So limiting. And to what end? Is it good music or not...that’s all. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/uncommon-time-dave-brubeck/ |
Mingus got soul; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY Bobby Timmons got soul; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjRQo-zpKA Ray Charles got double soul; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BzkiZBzcu4 "Soul" is that imperceptible something in jazz that you know it when you hear it, and there is nothing else like it; Soul can not be duplicated or imitated, some got it, and some don't. |
The phenomenology of guist is German Soul; it's a heavy philosophy about the inner spirit of human beings, so as you say "Soul" is universal, but when referring to soul as in jazz, it has a special and very specific meaning. It carries with it the suffering of African Americans throughout a history of suffering brought on by the discrimination of the American system. These emotions are expressed in the music of an oppressed people and it's what's called "Soul". |
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**** Surprise, Surprise!! **** Surely, you can do better than that. How about something just a wee bit more insightful? Now, Brubeck part of the cultural war? Seriously? Kindly explain. Re “soul”: That’s the problem with labels. First of all, the term “soul” was first used to define a specific popular music genre and was not typically used in connection with jazz until the sub genre “soul jazz” came to be. One can’t have it both ways (there’s those contradictions again). If “soul” in jazz “has a special and very specific meaning. It carries with it the suffering of African Americans throughout a history of suffering” only, then I guess Dave Brubeck’s jazz has no soul. Imagine that, a jazz piano player who is claimed to be “a giant among giants” who has no soul in his playing! How does that work? |
Frogman, you have become a "Troll"; as in a blog Troll; In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain. |
O-10, don’t you think it’s high time that you stop the ridiculous and obviously very selective personal attacks and simply address the disagreement and have a dialogue? Just who is it that is “sowing discord”? Once again, when the inconsistency is pointed out, or there is simple disagreement, resort to personal attacks. Seems to me that a good and logical retort or clarification would be much more productive. No? Perhaps next time I should try something like this instead to make sure I don’t sow discord; you seem to prefer this kind of response when there is disagreement: “Are you on the juice again? What a load of BS” Nah, it’s not in me. Btw, I agree that acman3’s links are very good. Funny thing is, they support what I wrote. As always, hoping for civil and adult discussion. Regards. Great MJ clip, btw. The chart has Q’s stamp all over; very nice. Thanks. |
O-10, one of your favorite tunes; arranged by Q. Clark Terry kills as usual: https://youtu.be/ldYen3sYVUc |
True, nothing like going to the source. “Bag’s Groove”, indeed. https://www.keyboardmag.com/lessons/monks-solo-on-bags-groove |
****Now, Brubeck part of the cultural war? Seriously? Kindly explain.**** I suggest you all go back and watch the Ken Burns Series JAZZ and get refreshed. If you don't know American history, you will never understand the Cultural war thingy. You won't even understand Jazz. You'd be better off reading a little more history and a little less of that music school propaganda. And stop it with the BS from Mingus. Love his music, but that's where it stops. Since I became aware of his refusal to tour the South with Pops, I won't take lectures from him about anything. Cheers |
If you really noticed "Bird", he always had a sly grin, as if he knew something he wasn't sharing with anyone; his music, it had something special and different, it was a secret that only he knew. Even today, his "Bird with Strings" sounds like it could have been made yesterday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg&list=PLqzxGGRskMsArMdq06cOawHAbO2kBWfmD Notice how he plays the melody so smooth and easy, but Bops and riffs all over and around the melody at the same time; a mixture of be bop and a smooth melody, nobody but Bird could ever do that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbXauqq9ayY&index=4&list=PLqzxGGRskMsArMdq06cOawHAbO2kBWfmD All through this album he does that, and makes all the riffs blend so easy with the melody; that's why his music was deified, "Bird lives on". Although I only posted two, listen to your favorites on this album that sounds current, even today. |
When you are talking about "Jazz", you are also talking about "Super Creativity"; that's why they have so much respect for one another. Jazz musicians are born, not made; nothing I can think of would enable a musician to get on a bandstand in front of a crowd of people, without knowing what he's going to play, and blow them away. That's what I've seen hardbop jazz musicians do; of course it took most of the waking moments of their lifetime to do that, but never the less, they finally arrived at that moment. |
Rok, how about addressing the specific question instead of condescending lectures. Let’s see, you won’t take what Mingus has to say seriously, but we are to take your judgmental lectures seriously. Is that it? Now, let’s focus; shall we? You stated that Brubeck was part of the ”culture war”. You choose to call it a “war”. That’s fine, and I and all here, I’m sure, are well aware of the cultural changes (negative and positive) that have been taking place. Additionally, don’t be so quick to suggest you are the only one that understands history. The relationship between iazz and race is well understood by anyone that cares about this music, as is its huge positive impact on race relations; one of the most prominent and important topics discussed in “music school propaganda”, btw. Check your arrogance at the door, please; you just might learn something yourself. Back to Brubeck: Again, how exactly is Brubeck part of this “culturel war”? How is someone who was so admired and who brought so much to the music a negative force in all this? Your comments seem to connect the subject of race to Brubeck’s influence in the scheme of things. How was a musician who was such a staunch advocate of race equality and so admired by other musicians and listeners of all races a negative influence in all this? Please, don’t cop out with “you don’t understand this or that”. Specifics, please. |
rok2id Yes unless you are more specific I don't see the connection between Brubeck and so-called cultural war either. BTW be careful quoting Ken Burn's "Jazz" as a historical reference. When a purported documentary of jazz history makes no mention of Bill Evans in its content , or his place in jazz history and the musicians he influenced it can hardly be called accurate. Also when a documentary of jazz places no emphasis on any jazz past the hard bop period it also lacks credibility. |
orpheus10 I feel your characterization of frogman as a "troll" was inaccurate and unwarranted. Just because someone holds a different position than yours or expresses thought that may question an analysis or statement made does not make them a troll. If there is one positive trait I have developed as an adult it is EMPATHY, the ability to hear and attempt to understand another persons position or feeling even though I may not agree. I used to have a position that my feeling or my attitude towards a subject was the ONLY one and anyone who disagreed was wrong. I have given that up over a lifetime of meeting many people. Jazz is a complicated music and a complicated subject. I understand your definition of "soul" in jazz although I don't agree with it. I saw an old Dick Cavett show recently where he interviewed Miles Davis whom he asked "is playing jazz the expression of oppressed minorities" and Davis stated it was not. I am sure there are other musicians who feel differently. So too with critics, jazz listeners and fans alike. If everyone could have an open mind about the subject of jazz and keep away from the personal attacks I feel the give and take between those who post could have a more positive outcome. |
I suggest we go with new vocals for a change of pace. Of course we are all familiar with Ella, Sarah, Lady Day, and Dinah, but there are relatively new vocalists that we aren't familiar with, lets focus on them. Cecille Salvant has a new album "Dreams and Daggers"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Dr7sNqqUM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0LzcYUHGh8 I'm looking forward to hearing from you and those new vocalists. |
nsp, have you ever heard Dave Brubeck and the word "soul" used in the same sentence until Frogman decided to use the two over and over. I ask you why? Dave Brubeck got "soul"; how does that sound? Dave Brubeck don't got no soul; who cares, Dave's music and soul are incongruous. Why does Frogman continue to connect the two? |
Don’t get me started on Miss Dee Dee. Here she is singing an old Brubeck tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3C9L6VzOdY Cheers |
Is this Victor Goines on horn. He plays with Wynton. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp4YKvx37w8 Cheers |
**** Dave's music and soul are incongruous. Why does Frogman continue to connect the two? **** Well, I could take exception with the use of “continue”, but let’s get to the meat of it instead. And I hope my response serves as an example of a reasoned attempt at dialogue instead of absurd and nonsensical personal attacks, name calling and accusations of trolling. **** when referring to soul as in jazz, it has a special and very specific meaning. It carries with it the suffering of African Americans throughout a history of suffering brought on by the discrimination of the American system. **** First, to suggest that being able to play with “soul” is the sole 😎 province of black musicians strikes me as not only inaccurate, but downright racist. I am sure you are not that, O-10; but, the implication is there. **** “Soul" is that imperceptible something in jazz that you know it when you hear it, and there is nothing else like it; Soul can not be duplicated or imitated, some got it, and some ain’t got it **** I agree with that comment. However, “playing with soul” is simply playing with emotion and feeling. That is how musicians use the term and how many listeners think of it. One does not have to be black to play with emotion (soul). As nsp points out, I think even Miles would agree. To use another of his examples: Bill Evans doesn’t play with soul?! One of the most deeply soulful piano players ever. Brubeck played jazz; I think we can agree on that. The idea that in the jazz world the playing of a “giant among giants” is “incongruous” with emotion (soul), struck me as the epitome of incongruousness; hence my question: “How does that work?” Is this trolling? Really? I hope that answered your question. https://youtu.be/nP1jkdz2lKw |
This man has such an elegant touch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnW9wNN_IVg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiARr9JhLEo Cheers |
I detest the word soul, as it is used in music. Always thought it was sort of arrogant. It made folks, especially singers, make all sorts of silly sounds trying to be 'soulful'. A certain person, whom we will not name, has gone from Pro, to Guru, to The Oracle of New York, and finally to Troll. hahahahh My, my, how the mighty have fallen. Cheers |
I have no problem with the word "Soul" as pertaining to music. Just like any other word, the meaning depends on how it's used. Sam and Dave "I'm a Soul Man"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVx2i6jGzf8 That pertained to an altogether different genre of music other than jazz, it was quite specific, and it was called "Soul music". "Soul" in jazz is in reference to deep emotion that is generated by the music; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhgUUe5czxc "Sandra's Blues" Dave Brubeck's music falls into neither category; it has more of an intellectual appeal, but if you find it "soulful", you're one of a kind, and I will never dispute your perception. |
**** My, my, how the mighty have fallen **** You once wrote those very words about Wayne Shorter. If I cared, I might say “Thanks, not too shabby”. Still a pro, btw, and more so than ever. Every other label is your doing. Once again, in the absence of a meaningful comeback, resort to sarcasm or personal attacks. Still waiting for those specifics re Brubeck/“culture war”. |
An interesting conversation has been taking part here ...so will just shortly jump in here and jump out (it’s good for muscles), just to say hello. *** *** Little bit of Django and Debussy... Django Reinhardt - Anouman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tDkaRvNHl8 Django Reinhardt - Claire De Lune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdjPZQnPGHA Debussy plays Debussy - Clair de Lune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yri2JNhyG4k |