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Mary Jo your concern makes my load a little lighter. What will be will be. I've had tests galore but no discussion with the doctors as to what they mean.
Life is one day at a time; today is brightened by your presence.
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Another bit to chew on: Bruce Lundvall:
I remember years ago, Roy Eldridge did a blindfold test, one of Leonard Feather’s for Down Beat. And Roy started off by saying, “I can tell. I can always tell if the musician is black or white.” He was wrong about 60 percent of the time. The above quote is from the following article: https://jazztimes.com/features/black-white-and-beyond/ |
orpheus10 Your comment in your last post is on the mark:"I have no problem with the word "soul" as pertaining to music.Just like any other word the meaning depends on how it's used". Webster's dictionary definition of "soul": "A man's moral and emotional nature, the quality that aroses emotion and sentiment". As used in this context I think most would agree D Brubeck who reached many over decades , had "soul". Websters also defines "soul" as " A quality that is essential to or characteristic of the cultural heritage of black americans". So it is the context and you both are right. As to your last statement in the post I thank you for your consideration. Now back to the music: Some blues to start off the day: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_nhZGIsERUE Another alto player I admire, Sonny Red: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=949vevKlQs8real down home organ based blues: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=USl7n22JsGw |
*****Websters also defines
"soul" as " A quality that is essential to or characteristic of the cultural heritage of black americans".*****
Now this goes to my bigger point about cultural wars. Black folks having 'soul' is now in the dictionary. How ridiculous is that. Who decided this? No one asked me. If they can decide Black folks have 'soul', then they can decide anything else about anyone else. Remember Rok's first and second laws of Jazz. 1. NEVER believe anything you read about black folks that is written by white folks. 2. NEVER believe anything you read about black folks that is written by black folks. Follow these simple rules and you shall know the truth.
Cheers |
Question to The Frogman: Talk about the sax playing on this tune. To me it seems to be a very difficult piece to play. They way they, both the soloist and sax section, are able to maintain their tone while slow and low. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUcEGOLfUTE Cheers
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We've skipped on from the Jamal link but I really enjoyed that updated version. A couple of his albums were among those I bought when I first got into jazz.
As usual, I have a little story. I never heard Jamal live. In college in the early '60s friends and I went to see him with great anticipation. Now after so many years I don't remember if there was an opening act, but I don't think so. Anyway, when Jamal came out and sat at the piano he only played a few notes then stopped. After some words with his trio partners he hit a few more notes. At that he got up and walked off the stage. No amount of clapping, whistling, or even booing could bring him out again. Finally whoever it was who'd announced the group came out again to say the show was cancelled. I can only guess the piano was out of tune, but wasn't there a sound check or warm up, even in those days, before the audience came in? Just a huge disappointment.
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Before the information age that we are living in now, when we didn't always know what the artists we were listening to looked like, I thought Buddy Collette was White, that's because his music always sounded white, and that went on for many years.
His good friend Mingus even said Buddy's music sounded White, that confirmed there was nothing wrong with my ears.
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Tonight I've been enjoying Horace Silver "Serenade To A Soul Sister" and Wayne Shorter "The Best Of" |
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Good to see you - mary_jo
Happy Listening! |
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Puente should leave 'Take Five' to Brubeck. Cheers |
Sheila E and Puente: Nice, but where's the Jazz, or even Music for that matter. cheers |
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**** Talk about the sax playing on this tune. ****
Your link came through as “not available”, but both the 1956 and 1957 recordings have plenty of links available and I’m sure what you posted is one of those two. It’s one of my favorite Ellington/Johnny Hodges features (“Come a Sunday” from Black, Brown and Beige is still the greatest, imo; with “Blood Count” a close second).
What you are reacting to is the art of section playing and Duke’s saxophone section did it better than just about any other big band saxophone section. It is truly an art. Not only were Duke’s saxophone players great soloists, but they were also great section players who knew how to blend, match vibratos and, very importantly, recognize when they had to play to serve the orchestration and not their individual egos. They saved that for their solo outings within the orchestration or solo projects. Now, an important issue in all thisrelates to something that has been discussed here (tried to, anyway): the evolution of jazz. We have discussed the evolution of styles, but not so much the specific component of style as demonstrated by the tone of players; and not just saxophone players. Alex is very keyed in to that specific aspect of playing styles. As jazz in general evolved and individual styles evolved, generally speaking, players’ tone concepts would become more aggressive, brighter and louder. Even when playing softly; what I like to call the sound of a quiet scream. A “modern” sound doesn’t lend itself to that kind of homogenous blending as does the tone that players from Duke’s era generally played with. A kind of tone which, believe it or not, is a lot closer to what is considered an appropriate tone for Classical music than most modern sounds.
**** To me it seems to be a very difficult piece to play. They way they, both the soloist and sax section, are able to maintain their tone while slow and low. ****
Its a good observation. It really is not a difficult piece to play at all in the technical sense; and “maintaining the tone while low and slow” is a technical skill. What is difficult (very), and why it’s called the “art” of, are the aesthetic difficulties which have more to do with what may seem to some to be almost anti the spirit of jazz; total freedom and self expression. However, that is a very incomplete and unsophisticated view of what jazz playing is about in its totality; even solo playing. The fact that great players can be a piece of the whole while adding just enough (!) of their own musical presence to the whole, and all the while following the lead of the section leader (Hodges), is very difficult. How section players, the leader of each section, and each individual section as a whole approaches the composition’s orchestration is key to how successful the music will be and how good the listeners’s perception and reaction to the music will be. Good players will tell you that executing these challenges are in many ways just as musically satisfying as playing solo. There is little correlation between a player being a good or a bad section players and being a good soloist. Some do both very well and some are terrible section players. Duke’s band had players that were great at both.
Now, and as always, in the spirit of striving for better dialogues, I have to point out that I find a certain irony (and this is, by far, the kindest word that I might use) in the idea that you can frequently put down what is achievable in music education (which is what allows explanation of these things in a way that makes sense) and often in a personal way, and then also frequently ask for answers and explanations of these things. As I have pointed out many times before, understanding the technical can help understand the aesthetic more deeply. Musical likes and dislikes is an entirely different issue. And, yes, we know about Ruby’s 😊
On a related note:
I agree about the Tito/SheilaE clip; a lot of showmanship and not a whole lot of music. I almost agree with your comment about Tito’s “Take Five”. I agree with O-10 that the chart has a lot of “pep in its step” and I kind of like it. However, I don’t understand the comparison to Brubeck’s music, nor why the comparison is relevant. What I mean is that the only thing that it has in common with Brubeck is that they used the same melody (actually, Paul Desmond’s composition). However, they play it in a completely different style (Salsa); so, apples and oranges. Even more importantly, they removed the most important aspect of the tune, the fact that the tune is in 5, or five beats to the measure. They do “Take Five” ...IN FOUR! This gives it a completely different feel. One could say that the feel of the Brubeck’s “Take Five” is that of a great steady walk with a skip after every four steps and Tito’s is a just a steady walk with more swagger and the waistline way too low; if you know what I mean.
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Excellent explanation from The Frogman. We all appreciate the effort you make to be comprehensive in your responses. Where would this thread be without The Frogman?. I suspect it would have ended years ago. We all have our opinions, he actually knows the facts.
I was listening to the Count Basie CD 'The Complete Atomic Basie' this afternoon. My question is, talk about the differences between the Basie and Ellington bands. Their unique respective 'sound', and the relative talent levels of the individual band members. Thanks again. Cheers |
When Sheila E is playing, who cares about the music; what music?
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Since my jazz selections don't seem to be pleasing anyone, it's time for my jaunt to faraway places with strange sounding names and people to match; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY01irEl8EoUSTAD NUSRAT FATEH ALI KHAN, I dare you to try and top that name. You go Nusrat. |
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Nusrat:
I liked Puente's 'Take Four' better.
Cheers |
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Another Trane to add to my shopping list.
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When Roland Kirk first came on the scene we thought he was just an oddity who played more than one horn at at a time, little did we know he was a jazz genius; you can't have too much of his music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haTHXTssfJg |
Another +vote for Roland Kirk.
Happy Listening! |
Kirk: Now, this is more like it. Great clip. Makes up for all the noise you posted earlier. Cheers |
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Big fan of Matthew Shipp as well. |
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o10, your Ali Khan posts reminded me of a wonderful musical introduction and experience from many years ago. Sometime later in his career Ravi Shankar bought a home near San Diego. In the 1980s he opened his house for concerts, featuring touring Indian musicians he respected. I had been familiar with Shankar prior to that but only recently expanded my listening to other artists from the Middle East. So I attended many of those concerts and it was an appreciation expanding experience. Ravi never performed at any of those concerts although he was nearly always present. One of those artists was V. M. Bhatt, who later made a wonderful album with Ry Cooder - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKE3gDpgd2cAll this was my push to explore what is now called World Music. Jazz remains my overall favored genre but I do enjoy many others too. BTW, for those with only a passing recollection of Shankar, his two daughters became well respected musicians. Anoushka Shankar followed her father and became an accomplished sitar player and composer. Her better known half-sister is Nora Jones who many jazz fans may know. (She may record on Blue Note but I won't defend her as a jazz artist.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Bry7hN8Cw |
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acman, thanks much; from that two further thoughts.
One, I'm often fascinated some of these Indian percussionists can get so much variety and nuance out of just two drums.
Second, I'm almost afraid to suggest it, but Ravi plays with soul. Just watch his face! ;^)
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You know it's a funny thing that everybody is playing with the word "Soul" since Dave Brubeck, but I don't care how you flip it, you can not connect the word soul with Dave Brubeck's music; that's not a bad thing, just a fact. Here we have the word used again, and we can hear it; you can not connect the word with the music unless somehow you can hear it; if you think it's applicable to Dave's music, that's fine with me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJPqM3xHEi8 |
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Wait a minute, did I just see a Brubeck video with both Body and Soul? |
*****I know Rok is about to explode by now as a result of our choice in music.***** Nah, I have gotten used to this assault upon real Jazz. It's been going on for over 5 years now.
*****Wait a minute, did I just see a Brubeck video with both Body and Soul?***** No, those were pigs you saw flying.
Cheers |
According to Joshua Redman, what people have called jazz over the years has changed so much. I definitely don't define jazz as a style or set of styles, because the stylistic components of it will always be changing. I don't know whether you agree Joe (Joe Lovano) but there are certain things like swing, that are crucial components of jazz and almost anything I would call jazz has something of that. The improvisational attitude, bringing your life experienceto the music, that is the key thing, not the stylistic elements.
What Joshua said sounds pretty good to me, but I'm not in the defining business, I'm a listener, and when I listen to current music called jazz, it just don't cut it. No longer am I going to listen and try to make sense out of it, I don't have that much time. While there are exceptions to that, they are too few and far in between for me to bother.
Recently, almost every day, someone is posting old jazz that's new to me, and it sounds like my kind of music; consequently, I am not going to waste another minute or peso investing in "new jazz", case closed.
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Rok, this Bud is for you. As you know, I'm not a true blue Blues fan, but this guy caught my attention today; "Johnny Guitar Watson"; although I've heard the name before, this is the first time I listened to his music, and I like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFA9dP967tsIt's reminiscent of "Al Green". |
o10, you were apparently quoting Redman, but I don't agree with "there are certain things like swing, that are crucial components of jazz". When a performance swings that can be enjoyable and even stimulating. But in my opinion that is not essential to being considered jazz. I've always used a measure of a sense of improvisation. That's one reason I enjoy solo or small group more than big band, there's more room for improvisation. Here's an example of something that doesn't "swing" but clearly has an expression of jazz in my perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIgOthers may agree or disagree, I don't mind. |
