Jazz for aficionados
Frogman - Take my advice. Don’t even bother responding. It is wasted effort. Extraordinary and disappointing to read of a lack of interest on the one hand and scornful dismissal on the other for learning more about something one professes to love. Meaningful dialog is only possible within limits set by O and Rok, apparently. "I don’t understand what an analysis of music is suppose[d] to achieve." That strikes me as a remarkably ignorant statement from one of the main contributors to a thread called, "Jazz for aficionados". Selective memory about liner notes aside, in the larger universe of music appreciation, analysis plays an important and respected role. Aficionadao: a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about an activity, subject, or pastime. "aficionados of the finest wines" synonyms: connoisseur, expert, authority, specialist, pundit, cognoscente |
**** The Frogman just wants to strut his stuff **** As is often the case when we come to this impasse, Rok, you would be dead wrong. Rok, you simply don't get it; so, rant away. Now, if you were to have an honest interest about any real motivation, be open to the truth, and you can find it within yourself to communicate that and any follow up commentary in a respectful, civilized and reasonably logical way then I would, once again, try and explain it to you. Otherwise, I think my comments have been perfectly clear. **** "I do not want to learn squat in regard to making music".**** O-10, I'll make you a deal. You (and Rok) pledge to never say anything negative about a music, or make unsubstantiated and hyperbolic-to-the-point-of-humor proclamations about music (like your "Enigma" comments) and I will never again say anything that could remotely be considered "about making music". Obviously, if you "don't want to learn squat about music", why should anyone care what you have to say about it? Otherwise, kindly explain why your personal anecdotes and Rok's comments about his Aunt should be relevant to anyone except yourselves? Why do you guys feel so threatened by others' (and I am far from alone) interest in what, as Ghosthouse says, makes it all tick, and by the ability and desire to express it? If you are not interested in it, then simply look the other way. I know why, but I'll leave it for you to figure out. You want to control the way that others express themselves about music and what it means to them. Instead of appreciating the opportunity to glean some knowledge or, at least, understand that there are different perspectives, you want to shut it down; a kind of music fascism. Pretty pathetic if you ask me; and mostly because all one has to do is look at what the end result is. |
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I don’t understand what an analysis of music is suppose[d] to achieve." That strikes me as a remarkably ignorant statement***** Well instead of name calling, why not take this opportunity to answer the question, You could enlighten us all. I will assume I have to remind you that no one is saying there is anything wrong with musical analysis, it has it's place. However, the question is, should that analysis influence what we think of the Jazz performance in question. Cheers |
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kindly explain why your personal anecdotes and Rok's comments about his Aunt should be relevant to anyone except yourselves? ****** This shows you have no appreciation of Jazz at all. You learned Jazz history in a school house. And, I could make the same statement about almost every word you have uttered on this thread. Cheers |
Rok - I do think you are the one that needs to "read it again". I called your statement ignorant, not you. I said "selective memory" about liner notes because I strongly suspect you are ignoring those that previewed the music in analytical terms; fairly common, I think, on classical LPs. As far as "enlighten us", who is "us"? Orpheus doesn’t care (regrettable, but I get it). You’ve already made your position clear. Why should I bother? I will say, however that for some of "us" analysis of the music is part of the overall enjoyment and it enhances the auditory experience. This is what it achieves. Seems a simple enough proposition: the mental process goes hand in hand with the auditory process. Understanding what I’m listening to deepens my enjoyment of the music. Is that to say enjoyment without understanding is impossible? Not at all. But in my worldview (and contrary to popular opinion), the oldest profession is taxonomy. "Man gave names to the animals". Some of us like to "give names" to the music. It deepens our appreciation. You don’t accept that for whatever reason? No problem to me, just please spare "us" the pontificating about how irrelevant it is. |
Now is the time for the Frogman to shine, he never met a "Bruhah" that he didn't instantly fall in love with. Unfortunately he has a legitimate reason for not responding to my post on soul; but he picks and chooses to respond to posts like a politician; it depends on who he is in favor of on any given day. The reason he likes a "Bruhah" is because he can write one of his two page diatribes, that if I'm included, I wont know what I said or didn't say; I wont even recognize myself. It's like seeing myself in one of those fun house mirrors; I look short and squat in one, and like a tall skinny bean pole in the next one. Now that this has begun, there is no telling when we'll get back to music, so I might as well include a story that I've told a dozen times; it's about a guy who got a degree, or maybe degrees from Juilliard. He was my best friends brother, who lived in New York until he retired and moved to Florida. Recently, my friend got sick (very ill) and we were trying to contact his brother in Spain, but the hotel said he left there for another hotel; anyway, I never heard him play one note of jazz, but he made a very good living teaching music. I had two other friends who could really pack the house; they could jam like you would not believe, and neither one of them went to anybody's school. My point is quite simple, when it comes to "hard bop" jazz, either you got it, or you no got it; if they didn't care about school, why should I? Although I must concede that a degree from da big "J" will most certainly command a fat paycheck. Enjoy the music. |
There’s really not much that can be added that isn’t obvious to anyone with a reasonable level of intellect; and therein lies the fundamental problem here. This would normally (and ideally) not be an issue at all if it weren’t accompanied by an equally low level of basic decorum and civility in the way that the interaction takes place. I do find fascinating and highly appropriate the "looking in the mirror" analogy; remarkable how we can fool ourselves into seeing what we want to see (instead of the truth) in order to build ourselves up. Early on in the history of this thread I made the comment that I felt that one of the most important aspects of being a good music listener is to never lose one’s sense of humility. Iow, the music is always greater than personal ego and there is danger in identifying with it in a way that is overly self-serving and doesn’t honor the grandeur of the music. No matter one’s level or type of experience in or with the music there is always much more to learn. The danger in not respecting this reality is the stunning level of irrationality and hypocracy demonstrated here by those who cannot bear to consider the possibility that someone else may have a different way of approaching the listening experience; or, God forbid!, some level of insight that eludes them. |
Alex (and others), here's a rarity, Art Pepper on clarinet. Not exactly the most accomplished clarinetist, but always with that fantastic sense of swing that he had in spades which, for a nice relaxed tune like this, renders moot any limitations on the instrument. Two different takes of the same tune from one of my favorite records: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLc1mfuf6zTgipDQ_MPPkbVgugTVUH2w8i&v=FpDcFkdATbI https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLc1mfuf6zTgipDQ_MPPkbVgugTVUH2w8i&v=cZSKf8s8NfY The current reigning king of the clarinet. Eddie Daniels is an amazing virtuoso on multiple woodwinds who has focused on the clarinet in recent years and can play in any genre from Classical to Jazz to fusion. Beautiful player and, like Michael Brecker on the tenor, and putting stylistic preferences aside, possibly the greatest virtuoso to ever play jazz clarinet. I admit that I don't always like his very "noty" style, but I post it to show what is possible on the instrument: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sfeoqVulAXg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7SdCFoReTSY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3wSASuSp0 |
Frogman, I find it very interesting how music affect us all differently and how origins of 'taste' could be very elusive. For reasons that I still try to understand,the sound of clarinet and accordion (even more) are the ones that associate me with almost instant and complete sadness, no matter what music is played. (slight exception is jazz on clarinet) Here are couple of links of music played on clarinet and accordion that are not jazz, but you may find them interesting, if nothing, than out of pure cuorisity. The music itself is from Balkans region, that was ruled by Otoman empire (as well as other powers) for couple of centuries and those influnces can be heard. I'll be interested to hear your comment, as well from others, if you find it interesting https://youtu.be/0cvKvd6HynA same guy, playing composition of A.Shaw, some 30 years before(would not guess it, by looking at cover,ha,ha) https://youtu.be/OzD2Y9rI50I https://youtu.be/nhiZ8lDhSJM |
Very interesting comments, Alex, and I agree completely; the origins of "taste" can indeed be very elusive. I love ethnic music from that part of the world as well as most ethnic musics. The subject of "soul" comes up frequently here and I think it's important to appreciate that "soul" is not unique to music with roots in the Afro-American experience. I first fully understood this the first time that I travelled to Japan. After years of finding Japanese ethnic music unlistenable, being extremely grating and abrasive to everything that was part of my musical frame of reference, learning a bit about Japanese culture showed me just how soulful that ethnic music is. I feel the same way about music from the Balkans and find much of it very soulful. As far as the feeling of sadness that the clarinet/accordion invokes in you, a couple of thoughts; but, first, I would like to give anyone who will be offended by a bit of "analysis" time to leave the room😔................ .......................................................................................................... ........... is the coast clear? ............................................................OK: On the assumption that you have heard a fair amount of ethnic music from the Balkans (hence your familiarity with Milosevic) it should be pointed out that much of it features the clarinet, so I am sure that you are considering the very natural feeling of nostalgia that it may invoke in you, just as Cuban folk music does for me. Beyond that, and this is key (pun intended).............. last chance ......................................................................................................... .......................................................................................................OK, most ethnic music from the Balkans is in a minor key; the "sadness" key, as opposed to a major key, the "happy" key. Music in a minor key is recognized as invoking a feeling of sadness. Almost all blues is in a minor key. Perhaps this contributes to your feeling. Very good clarinetist Milosevik. I am well aware of his son Milan Milosevik, also a very accomplished and highly respected clarinetist who works in North America (mainly Canada). I knew his father was also a musician, but knew nothing more. Thank you for those clips. He's a fine clarinetist; very expressive. It is interesting to compare his playing to his son's who is more a product of the "internationalization" of the different styles of clarinet playing; a twentieth century phenomenon. Less overtly "ethnic" and individualistic, but more refined and, arguably, even more soulful: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HcFTnxRMbHw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bjv2nAhIbiQ (he plays Tarogato at the end of this) |
Frogman, its good to know and understand some 'tricks' from the trade. Aldo, must add, that origin of music might have some influence (even if its not from the parts or 'culture' where I live) I have the same (sad) sensation even when I hear or listen to classical music played on accordion. Who would know the exact reason? I was 'exposed' to jazz as a child, by my parents, but did not start to listen it untill I was 23. Needless to say, been digging it since and still it looks like there is sea of unknown music and players, all within one decade. Will that feeling change, I cant say, will let you know all, here perhaps |
Alex, my favorite "The Far Side" cartoon: https://www.reddit.com/r/Accordion/comments/3pvqb7/the_far_side/ |
Old and new jazz is a fallacy; are you referring to the date it was recorded, or the style, or the artists; it can get confusing; especially when you make that classification. But in order to clarify the allegations; "No I don't like new jazz". I don't like new or old jazz that does not sound like squat. Here is some clarinet work featuring two of the most interesting people in jazz who will never go out of style; they will always be modern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93d_37synC4&t=40s Enjoy the music. |
Please, try and control the tears ☺️: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCMzRLov58 If that fails, try this (is this jazz-jazz?): https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL0D56CCF56E7DF4C8&v=IrQGcIIwwR0 |
I like clarinet where it seems "appropriate" as in the time when it was popular. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkdCr9HlRE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=towtYP6bpBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhkZ_eiqLXg |
Rok, eastern europe is a such vast area, any generalization is impossible. But, if you are curious, take a look at this. This is considered to be ’traditional music’ or at least one sort of it, from parts where I live. It is in fact recorded in a streets of my hometown, in a old centre. https://youtu.be/naJsH5SPzlU Probablly all started from such gatherings, around the kitchen table. This form is quite alive today, in many versions, some better than others https://youtu.be/fBU7qg-W3kM Female ’group’ (its caled ’klapa’ ) https://youtu.be/ZIl9myYxuGk Sometimes its possible to see some of those groups singing on streets, at summer usually, ’sotto voce’, just for fun of it... |
Frogman, glad you like it. I believe that such sorts of accapella singing can be found in different parts of world,do you know has anybody made any comparations? Rok, I really would not know, always I go to ytube. Why its spellled that way, with a dot between, its beyond me. Maybe it has something to do depending from which part of the world you log onto it? But, if others are opening and listening to clips that I post, I guess you should have no fear either. I assure you that I am not trying to hack your pc |
I liked it very much. There is a very strong choral music tradition in The Balkans and Eastern Europe as a whole which often incorporates folk songs. I’ve always found something very attractive about the music of that part of world. One of the distinctive qualities is the use of unique minor scales (there are different kinds) that cause the melodies to not have the usual tendencies to resolve or move the way that Western ears are accustomed to. This can give the melodies a sense of staying suspended and not resolving. One can hear the influence of early Christian music as well as folk music and, indeed, acapella singing has its roots in Christian, Jewish and Muslim religious music from a time when the use of instruments in religious services was considered inappropriate. It would not be surprising if some of that tradition found its way to the kitchen table. Not exactly from The Balkans, one of my very favorite records is of choral works by Hungarian composer Zoltan Kodaly for girls chorus and mixed chorus. A beautiful and at times haunting sound.. That record is not on YouTube, but this is some of the music: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7_PFwnbPOn4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=denTCk20Ahw |
Frogman, if you are interested to find out more about it, here is the link on english from Institute of ethnology and folklore research http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/68112 In it, its in fact been said, how the origins of 'klapa' singing are from northern Italy (Italy is just across the sea,with strong influence, during many centuries) But, we kind of drifted away from the jazz, dont want to be rude If you have any questions, please ask |
Apropos of nothing recent but the serenity here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwmRQ0PBtXU&ab_channel=jazzhole13 |
Ghosthouse, as you so appropriately stated, "You can have jazz without soul, but the best jazz got to have soul", and you can hear it. Believe it or not, not everyone can hear it. I think one must have a built in "soul receptor" in order to hear it; whatever it is that enables one to hear soul, you got it. That's indicated by the music you choose. "Maiden Voyage" has been one of my favorite tunes since the first time I heard it. It's a memory I shall never forget; I was cruising in the "Deuce" down one of the main boulevards tuned to "Jazz FM", when out of the clear night came this most beautiful tune; it was "Maiden Voyage"; that added to my feeling good sense of being. Before I even knew the title, the music made me feel the calm resolve one must feel when going on a "Maiden Voyage"; as well as the sense of adventure when on a journey into the unknown. This is at a time when I was young (in my twenties) and any time I was cruising in the "Deuce" down one of the main boulevards in the night, I felt a sense of adventure because I never knew what pleasures I might encounter before the night was over. Enjoy the music. |
Few piano players could invoke a feeling of serenity like Bill Evans could: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIg |
When it comes to "serenity" the combination of Bill Evans and Toots deliver; they are like one on the album "Affinity"; which is in my personal top 10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToND0PqRrPE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsDRdbkGRf0 And they can also "Boogy" a little bit, on the same LP; git down Charley Brown! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ESLJebaWyU Enjoy the music. |
O - Your compliment much appreciated. Flattered, actually. That jazz remark you attribute to me was really a takeoff on what you yourself had posted. Depending on context - call it "soul", magic, inspiration, emotional connection, spark (you get my drift) - it’s that mysterious transcendent something that elevates some music. Having a music degree and great technical chops do NOT guarantee it’s going to be present. I will certainly give you and Rok that. Though I also believe (and this is not original with me) study, practice, eduction and hard work can make the vessel better able to receive the gift when it’s granted. Of course, we all respond to and feel that "something" differently. So another area for discussion and disagreement: what’s got it; what doesn’t. We both agree on Maiden Voyage, though. Glad it evoked a response in you - both now and back when you first heard it. |
What would a movie be without music? No one can even imagine it; but do you think any of the "movie makers" want to learn anything about how to make music? Nowhere is it stated that this thread should have anything about making music; it's about listening to, and evaluating "Jazz music". Everything about this thread is spelled out in the beginning; it's about collecting and evaluating "Jazz records", and that is what an "Aficionado" of jazz records does. If you are an aficionado who wants to teach something about music, I have no objection to that. If there are aficionados who want to learn something about making music, I have no objection to that; however, I do object to including "yours truly". Enjoy the music. |
As with some poster(s)’ knee jerk reaction to new jazz, usually followed by silliness and ugliness, there is often more energy spent (posts) on objecting to, qualifying and bickering about dialog concerning the "making of music" than actually "listening to and evaluating Jazz music". I would venture a guess that only about 10% (at most) of the music clips posted here have been "new" Jazz. However, more times than not there is some ugly derision directed at the new music clips and/or the person posting them. This, while also and often ignoring the jazz-jazz clips. Why? Doesn’t this strike the objectors as a little bizarre and counterproductive? My point, and humble and friendly suggestion, is that since by now we all know where each of us stands (and it’s not going to change), with all due respect, proclamations like the above are not only unnecessary, but serve no purpose other than to disrupt the serenity. I would, however, like to ask the question: Since the thread is, as you suggest, about "evaluating Jazz music", kindly explain how a listener for who the "making of music" is inextricably intertwined with the "evaluation of music" (and it is for many many listeners; probably most, to some degree) is supposed to do that? Please consider yourself NOT included 😊 **** but do you think any of the "movie makers" want to learn anything about how to make music? **** You better believe it! There are many aspects of the music making process that movie makers concern themselves with; starting with the choice of composers for the score based on understanding that only certain composers use certain instrumental (and vocal) textures and colors in such a way that serves the movie maker/producer’s vision of the role of the music in the overall product. |
O-10, I was not aware that there was a "teacher" and "students" here, but simply sharing of ideas and thoughts; much more positive and less contentious way to look at it if you ask me. Serenity is good thing. Great clip with Toots; love that record. And if that record doesn't shatter preconceived notions about certain things, I don't know what does. Who woulda thunk that the harmonica could sound so elegant and masterful? Great stuff. |
Glad you liked it; that was almost a continuation of your Bill Evans link. He was like a chameleon in regard to his ability to change colors to suit the situation. I just happened to have a funny thought about Miles and Monk. I have a Miles record where I always identify the pianist as Monk, when it's actually Horace Silver. I also have another Miles record where I make the same mistake with another pianist. The funny part about this thing is that it's due to the fact that Miles was having some kind of rift with Monk, so instead of getting Monk to play the part, he gets whoever the pianist is to play like Monk. "Say Horace, do that plink plink plunk, Monk thing right here." Enjoy the players. |
Glad you liked it; that was almost a continuation of your Bill Evans link. He was like a chameleon in regard to his ability to change colors to suit the situation. I just happened to have a funny thought about Miles and Monk. I have a Miles record where I always identify the pianist as Monk, when it's actually Horace Silver. I also have another Miles record where I make the same mistake with another pianist. The funny part about this thing is that it's due to the fact that Miles was having some kind of rift with Monk, so instead of getting Monk to play the part, he gets whoever the pianist is to play like Monk. "Say Horace, do that plink plink plunk, Monk thing right here." Enjoy the players. |
You know Rok, some people believe in just letting things ride, but I don't. It has been stated I don't know how many times, that if I left this thread, it would thrive; so I left it for maybe two months, and I saw no changes. You also left for awhile and I saw no changes; that means "conclusively" that this thread has all the people it's going to get. Rather than just let it ride, I want it to be stated, and if anyone disagrees let him (no need to say, "Or her") speak, or forever hold his peace. I always see that in the movies, but this is the first time I've ever said it; that's real cool; I'll have to look for another opportunity to say it. Enjoy the music. |
I disagree. First of all, I don't remember anyone ever suggesting that if you left the thread "it would thrive". Since the last time this comment about "this thread has all the people it's going to get" was made (not that long ago) there have been at least two or three new contributors and at least one of those is a regular. The related comment that I and others have made is that it would serve the thread well if the elememt of elitism, intolerance, clickishness and simply bad manners that is sometimes introduced drives potential posters away; imo. **** (no need to say, "Or her") **** How do you know? 😄 |
I've got an album by an artist I've never seen featured on this thread; maybe there is someone who knows more about this artist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M76zatuTtKg Although not "jazz jazz" I like the music, and I was wondering; "What do you think"? Enjoy the music. |
randy-11, its right here; doors wide open: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjq6rcEZ-J4 Used to be at this address, but one of its priests (Brecker) sadly passed recently: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VKI-vE7KmvU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkFYS2NWo9U |
Ravi Coltrane, son of John and Alice Colrane. His dad passed away when he was two years old. One could make a case for why the church is at this address; you be the judge: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HCFYuVrUpq4 Son: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jI7RbAf4Dks Father: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JG9ygPjWdj0 |
Billy Vaughn, **** Although not "jazz jazz" I like the music, and I was wondering; "What do you think"? **** Not my cup of tea, O-10. When you said it's "not jazz-jazz" I assumed it would have some semblance to jazz. Doesn't do it for me. Pretty tuneful stuff, but very hokey; although, nothing like a good melody. Still, the kind of stuff that reminds me of the music scores from early 70s TV shows like "That Girl" and "The Flying Nun". Touted as a "multi-instrumentslist", I think that Billy Vaughn was more of a "Easy Listening" orchestra leader. As an instrumentalist (sax, flute) he was pretty bad. I would put this music along side Lawrence Welk conceptually, but on a lower level of craft; Lawrence Welk's orchestra was GREAT. |
Frogman, although your assessment is fairly accurate, this just shows that music outside the genre, can still sound good to some individuals. Maybe it's because of the selection of the tunes he decided to record, plus the cover art puts one in the mood for the sea shore; I can just feel the ocean spray when the waves crash on the rocks. I like all of the tunes recorded, and the music fits the tunes; we'll see what Ghosthouse thinks about it. Enjoy the music. |
