Great example, Dave Tough; legendary swing drummer for the reasons you mention. Some players have "the thing". Hard to explain, but they somehow take things to a higher level just by their presence. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ygX_pt_aceMGotta love YouTube! In looking for a clip with Dave Tough I noticed that the tenor player on that clip was the also legendary West Coast player Ted Nash, uncle and namesake of Ted Nash Jr. of Wynton's Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, one of the hottest and most talented young jazz players around. That led to this clip of Ted jr.'s father Dick Nash, brother of Ted sr. Amazing trombone player and LA studio legend with an incredibly beautiful trombone sound. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0i3xCtEtMWhich led to this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BDlwb-uVY |
Alex - you know how to pick 'em. Thanks for those Maceo links.
Frogman - Another very insightful post from you. Ever think about doing record reviews? Better than a lot of the stuff I read. I should have realized who the JBs were. Recognized the "sound/style" but thought their name was homage. Didn't look up personnel. The trombone threw me a bit too. I didn't recall one backing him...but it's been a long time and I don't know much of his full career. Yes, a couple of gems though, as you wrote, not as strong as the package with JB's vocals. Your comments about Takuya Kuroda very perceptive...I can hear what you critique.
O - were you keeping your silence regarding something I wrote? |
In some other time, this was called 'funky'. Gene Ammons jam session, album simply called 'Funky' from 1957. with great line up of Burrell, J.McLean, Art Farmer,Mal Waldron, Watkins, Taylor https://youtu.be/TXxFCCXXdDs?list=RDTXxFCCXXdDs |
hahaha, Alex. "Funky" circa 1957 sure was different sounding than a decade or two later. Interesting how far back some of these terms go. Definition of funky (from Merriam Webster on-line dictionary) 1: having an offensive odor : foul 2: having an earthy unsophisticated style and feeling; especially : having the style and feeling of older black American music (as blues or gospel) or of funk <a funky beat> 3a : odd or quaint in appearance or feeling b : lacking style or taste c : unconventionally stylish : hip |
Ghosthouse,I was referring to the JB's; they most certainly didn't suit my mood that day; while I enjoyed Takuya Kuroda, as a matter of fact I'm listening to him right now, his music is thoughtful and original.
I'm enjoying the music.
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O - Thanks for the explanation. I absolutely understand. It's like you said another time about "reception". For me, it started out fun but got kind of repetitive and annoying. That Takuya Kuroda was a nice counter to them. Glad you find it worth your while. I did not listen to much of Rising Son. Will return to it. Prefer all instrumentals. Seems like there are some vocal tracks on that.
I'm enjoying the music2. |
Ghosthouse, thanks for the kind words.....maybe in another lifetime. |
"Enigma" is the most creative musical group to come along in decades; they have presented a new form of artistic expression with mystic and experimental components which enabled them to sell 700 million records world wide. Their music fits all the various definitions of the word in regard to "genre"; therefor it is music of the world without any specific definition, or genre, although we demand that all things be classified. My musical receptors make no such demands; the guard at the gate simply says "Come in" or "stay out", and Enigma was welcomed with open arms. I have both CD's and DVD's by Enigma, that way I go on their visual, and aural journeys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_2W1dTMao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZfLIsfredUEnigma explores the depth of all emotions to their limits, and then some. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F80QIeequEIJourney to the inner sanctums of Enigma; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbO8KBGWXhAEnjoy the music. |
Alex, Gene Ammons, pretty darn funky. What a sound he had! Nothing "Pint Size"(d) about "Jug"'s tone; huge and funky. Actually, the funky definition of "funky" hasn't changed much over the years and is really the same at its most basic: VERY deep groove with looseness. The two things can seem contradictory, but that's the magic. Beautiful Jackie McLean and Kenny Burrell. Great clip, thanks. Here's a rarity: Ammons with Coltrane on alto (!). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3drm-bt-vw |
Frogman I certainly liked the ’Groove Blues’ that you have posted, I dont have it, but will get it, strange, must admit that somehow I overlooked it. If you liked ’Funky’ you may try another of his jam sessions albums, called ’Jammin in Hi Fi’, with somewhat changed line up, but still with Burrell, Waldron and McLean, along with Idris Sulieaman, Chambers and Taylor. https://youtu.be/Es76Nsfr09sThere are couple more his albums,jamms, but I like the ones with Burrell most. Orpeheus, I must say that you have surprised me with those Enigma links. Never would thought that you may like that kind of music. Respect you and your taste, but I find their music to be very opposite off that how you consider it |
O-10:
Thanks for the 'Enigma' clips. They are much more effective, and safer, as a sleep inducing aid, than are prescription pills.
Cheers |
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O - Listened to all of Rising Son. Liked it (well most of it; Everybody Loves the Sunshine got kind of boring). Now listening to TK's Zigzagger. This seems to have more energy than Rising Son. His tone is still pretty smooth however. I do like his compositions. |
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Thanks for the clip and recommendation, Alex. Great Ammons and great lineup. As before, Jackie McLean sounds great. It's interesting how McLean evolved as a player. To me he sounds best during this period and I don't enjoy much of his later work nearly as much. His playing seemed to get much more aggressive later in his career and with a tone that could sound downright nasty. Biggest surprise is Sulliman on trumpet. That's somebody worth exploring; he sounds really good here. O-10, don't know if anyone picked up on this, but the first Enigma clip borrows the opening of the famous and popular "Carmina Burana" by Carl Orff: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFSK0ogeg4 |
One of the most expressive tenor players ever, imo, Gene Ammons was one of the founders of the "Chicago style" of tenor playing. He could bebop with the best of them but usually chose to stay on the bluesy side of things and stayed clear of the modal jazz style that emerged later during his career (Rok 😃). If we think that "funky" has taken on different meanings and that "pop" music has changed dramatically over the years, consider the fact that this recording was on the Billboard Magazine's pop (!) charts in 1950: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BIgydCY6m54More favorite "Jug": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=stEDTC4Xv8M |
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Fabulous! Thanks for that. |
Frogman, although what you said seems correct, I never heard of "Carmina Burana". Who else here knows about "Carmina Burana"?
Apparently he or she is completely outside of my musical awareness. Is that good or bad for "Enigma".?
Enjoy the music; Carmina Burana too.
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*****I never heard of "Carmina Burana".*****
Good Grief!!!!!
Cheers
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Perhaps somebody has hacked Orpheus profile?
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****Apparently he or she is completely outside of my musical awareness. Is that good or bad for "Enigma".?****
O-10, my moment was not a judgmental one. It seems to me that when a musical group that is declared to be:
****the most creative musical group to come along in decades; they have presented a new form of artistic expression with mystic and experimental components which enabled them to sell 700 million records world wide.**** (!!!)
..... that the inclusion (sampling) of the opening of one of the (the?) most popular twentieth century Classical music works would be highly relevant. Fyi:
"Carmina Burana" is collection of medieval poems in Latin set to music by the German composer Carl Orff. Throughout the "Enigma" clips that you posted medieval music is a strong component.
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"moment" = comment . Sorry. |
Frogman, I appreciate your very informative post. I never approached music from an academic point of view, it has always been from an emotional, or resonant stance; meaning if the music is in harmony with my inner vibes we, (me and the music) go into a state of "resonance" . Enigma affects me in that fashion.
The music we like is a composite of who we are, that includes all of our various lives before we reached our present state of awareness; in other words, I might have been one of the Knights of the Round table in one of my previous incarnations; that would most certainly explain my affinity for Enigma.
Enjoy the music.
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Folks on this thread do seem to listen to music as if they were music critics, instead of music lovers.
Cheers |
I'm with you Rok; I listen to music for enjoyment, not to break it down like dissecting a frog in biology (pun unintended). Them super "aficionados" got all over me about Enigma, but failed to comment on "Swinging For Benny" which is a real Gem, and I know they probably hadn't heard it before because no one has posted it before. Here it is one mo time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnw2FQUckECan you dig it. |
****Folks on this thread do seem to listen to music as if they were music critics, instead of music lovers.****
Nonsense! And if I weren’t in such a good mood today I probably would have said "bulls++t!" We’ve been here so many times before that it’s ridiculous. Let’s take a closer look at this assertion and hopefully put it to rest once and for all (unlikely)....shall we?:
The main problem with that assertion is that the implication is that when there is any critical analysis there is less love for the music; that the "critic" is somehow automatically LESS of a music lover and that the listener who won’t or is incapable of being analytical is somehow a more "pure" lover of the music and is more in touch with or receptive to the emotional content in music; a ridiculous and self-serving stance. I would ask the "music lovers" here to please point out what it is they bring to the table of discussion or simple sharing of music that separates them from the supposed "critics" here. Let’s see, by way of quotes from prior posts or new commentary, what it is, exactly, that points to any advantage or any sort of "higher ground" in the areas of appreciation or love for any music by a choice or inability to be analytical. The point is, as has been pointed out many times before, that analysis ADDS to appreciation and can, if anything, fuel deeper love for the music. Now, conversely, kindly explain and point out what has been written here by those who add some degree of analysis to the "appreciation mix" that suggests that they love music any less.
I hope that the parallels between this "argument" and the old-jazz vs. new-jazz debate does not go unnoticed. It should also be pointed out, Rok, that I haven’t seen very much "music loving" from you lately by way of music sharing, but plenty of "criticism". I also don’t see any criticism by those who do analyze of those who choose not too, or can’t. Why the other way around? Hmmm....ironic, no?
Edit: to suggest that pointing out a very interesting aspect of a music is to "approach music from an academic standpoint" as opposed to "the emotional" and to equate this to "dissecting a frog" is unfair and condescending. In my universe it would merit at least a "isn't that interesting" or "Hmmm, let's see, I wonder what Medieval music is like?". Oh, well; to each his own. |
*****
The main problem with that assertion is that the implication is that when there is any critical analysis there is less love for the music; that the "critic" is somehow automatically LESS of a music lover and that the listener who won’t or is incapable of being analytical is somehow a more "pure" lover of the music and is more in touch with or receptive to the emotional content in music; a ridiculous and self-serving stance. *****
Good Lord.!! I had no idea I had said all that. They don't call you, Frogman the Straw-man, for nothing.
What a load of Malarkey!!
Cheers
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Ok, Rok, I'll play; for a little while anyway. Please set the record straight, then, and explain what you mean by the distinction and why you make it? Of course, all this against the backdrop of your well known and frequently expressed disdain for music critics. |
This is the second, or third time I posted Gene Ammons, and no response; there is the implication that "communications" be two way; other wise we only have an "attempt" at communicating.
In regard to the "music critic" type of response; it might be appropriate in a music school or class, but comes off as condescending here, where one is more concerned about how the music affects you; "Do you like it"? As opposed to what kind of grade you give the music.
I'm sure those of us who simply listen without analyzing, enjoy the music more than the analytical critic, which is why I always say;
Enjoy the music.
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****In regard to the "music critic" type of response; it might be appropriate in a music school or class, but comes off as condescending here,****
With all due respect, O-10, I think you left out two key words at the end of that statement....."to me". There is no condescension in expressing truth and points of interest expressed without condescension in the context of a discussion about music; condescension of the type as in the "dissect it like a frog" comment.
Hey, speaking of condescension:
****I'm sure those of us who simply listen without analyzing, enjoy the music more than the analytical critic****
Absolutely not true; but, if you need to feel that you enjoy music more than I do, please, by all means do so its cool with me.
As far as commentary that not only is unsubstantiated, but that is more suitable for a classroom:
****"Enigma" is the most creative musical group to come along in decades; they have presented a new form of artistic expression with mystic and experimental components which enabled them to sell 700 million records world wide.
Their music fits all the various definitions of the word in regard to "genre"; therefor it is music of the world without any specific definition, or genre, although we demand that all things be classified.****
Ahem!
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Ammons been berrry berrry good to me.
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Frogman, the beauty of this thread is that we are all uniquely different individuals; I don't expect that to change. Since we all have sizable collections, it's apparent we all enjoy music to the highest degree.
In regard to "condescending" ; I often exaggerate, and occasionally use the wrong word, but it's not meant to be as offensive as you make it sound.
As you know, tonight it's "Enigma", tomorrow it might be something from the outback, but I just go with the flow and the moment, which is forever changing.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, John Hassel, different approach to the trumpet indeed. I actually liked the Brian Eno/Hassel "Fourth World" record quite a bit. Some of the best conceptually strong "ambient" music that I have heard. Not something that I would like to listen to all the time, but definitely interesting compositionally and conceptually and worthy of a listen. Thanks for those.
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Alex, you are without a doubt, the best friend of the under appreciated musician. What a nice player Lenny Hambro was. One of those guys who truly could have been a "star" but for whatever reasons never became one. He was a star among his peers as he is a NYC legend among players.. Beautiful singing quality in his playing and beautiful tone as you point out; surprisingly bright tone for a player of his generation. Great clips! Thanks.
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Interesting word, "malarkey". Can also be spelled without the "e"; "malarky". Of unknown origin, it is one of our vice-president's (soon to be gone) favorite words. So much so, that one speech of his is known as "the Malarkey speech". Rok, you are in good company 😊☺️😉 |
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Frogman, I just realized, you have a problem with accepting the fact that we are uniquely different individuals, and none us are going to change; or maybe it would be OK if we changed into "Frogman Clones".
One example of that is your sensitivity to criticism, even when it's not that at all, but simply a difference of opinion; that's when you go into one of your long "diatribes", and after reading a page of that stuff, the person it's addressed to doesn't even know what he said; especially after you infuse your long "misinterpretation". "Did I say that"? is what the person who is the object of the "Diatribe" is thinking.
Differences in musical taste are never more clear as in the "genre" of jazz, For example; I have submitted one tune by "Gene Ammons" four times, and got no response. While I know everyone here likes Gene Ammons, it could be that no one likes this particular tune by Gene Ammons.
Since I really think this tune is hot stuff, maybe it's my taste in music that is the objection; the name of the tune is "Swinging For Benny", which any aficionado would know, is in reference to "Benny Green" on trombone, as opposed to any of the current "Benny's"
Enjoy the music.
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Tsk, tsk. tsk, O-10; try and take a closer look at where you’re starting to take the dialogue. It should be pointed out that you didn’t have to go there at all, but you chose to continue to stir the pot. You could not be more mistaken in your analysis; but, as before, no problem as far as I’m concerned. As I have said many times, I would like nothing more than civil dialogue; but, as usual. there seems to be a total difference of perspectives at these times beginning with the notion that I may want to "change" you or anyone. You flatter yourself, and I would suggest that for a clue about the root cause of this never-ending antagonism one need look no further than at the simple fact that you have now pointed out, complained, objected to, whatever you want to call it, THREE TIMES to the fact that no one responded to your Ammons clips.
I would like to suggest that we institute a "gentleman’s rule" for the thread. This, on the assumption that after almost four years these silly little "dramas" will continue. I would like to suggest that whenever there is contentious dialogue which, as we know, has a tendency to spiral out of control with more and more personal comments and innuendo, that as soon as a poster (in this most recent case. Alex 12/3) posts music or makes a comment entirely about music (the supposed subject of this thread) with NO reference to the "drama", that the drama and its particulars be COMPLETELY dropped by all concerned and we move on to the subject of music: an automatic diffuser of the tension. A little poetic as well as pragmatic, no? Works for me.
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Frogman,hope you are not saying that my comments were personal? If there is any potential discussion that tends to be 'heaed' I alwyas put mark that my comments are in no way directed to the person, but to the opinion that one states. I am sure that in 'our debate' that was the case too. Further more, I strongly object that I ve expressed any 'innuendo' directed to you. No matter how much I disigree with something thats has been said, argumented and civil debate is a sign of good taste, measure and proper upbringing. If you really feel that you have been attacked personally, I offer you my sincere appology, but than I would ask for explanation of such thought or feeling
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You did it again; you neglected to comment on a post that was ages ago, while you're bringing in a new element of objection on this current post. That tune was most significant for a real jazz "aficionado", and the title of the tune was most significant. Apparently I'll have to resume my roll as "aficionado in chief" and explain the significance of the players. "Benny Green" was in that unique group of trombonists who were the absolute swingers; hence the title of the tune. Sax is not the only jazz instrument, the trombone cooks too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnw2FQUckEHear Benny come in at 3:58 and blows like crazy; never mind that this is "jazz jazz", as the new title it acquired here, it's jammin; this is "jazz jazz" supreme; which is probably the reason it was overlooked. why don't you just e-mail me what you would like for me to post, and I'll post it. |
Swinging for Benny:
That whole clip was 'strange'. First of all, the man was wearing a suit and tie and looked like a serious Jazz musician. This type music sounds vaguely familiar.
Then it hit me. This is Real Jazz being played by a real Jazz Musician. Wow!! I like this a lot better than the latest "jazz" sensation from Uzbekistan. Good work OP. It takes a brave man to post Jazz, on 'Jazz for Aficionados' these days.
Cheers |
Alex, my apology to you for not making my comments more clear. My reference to your post was made only in the most positive light. Your comment was the opposite of personal and why I referenced it. Since O-10 and I were headed for, yet again, an unpleasant argument with little chance of a resolution, I suggested to O-10, as a way to prevent the recurring cycle of unproductive arguments, that as a "safety valve" of sorts, all on this thread establish a rule that says that whenever a post is made that is strictly about music as yours was (12/3) that whoever is arguing should consider that a "white flag" of sorts and cease the arguing and drop the subject so that we can all return to the subject of music. I hoped that O-10 and I could reach such a "gentleman's agreement" and not let the arguing spiral out of control as in the past. Btw, I do have some thoughts about those clips; fantastic stuff.
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O-10, I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Rok, you hit the nail dead on the head; this is the real deal, and it probably sounds strange to those who didn't respond, but we have to overlook that; must be a bunch of newbees. ( I betcha that got their attention)
Enough is enough; I tried it and I didn't like it; but since my mood changes from day to day, maybe Fridays will be a good day for new jazz.
Never the less, I'm going oleschool and getting in the "jazz jazz" groove.
Enjoy the music.
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My last post was in "English"; that's my native tongue, what was it that you didn't understand?
My suggestion to you, is to refrain from communicating with me about anything in any fashion, and I will reciprocate, that way I'm sure we will get along.
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