Also, if it is really bad with money, I have a few records and a few older pieces of equipment that I could easily sell if I have to, this would give me extra $1k-$1.5k. Hell, I could even sell couple of my custom knives that I would replace later. I could buy a good looking Otari for about $1k right now but I won't because of extra expenses. This would be a serious project not just getting another source. Generally speaking, I don't care much about vinyl, it is an excellent medium for archive, I only like tape.
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
31,608 responses Add your response
I think, that before this Studer/Otari project I will want to replace my phono stage, which is pretty good, with a great tube one, and then replace the cartridge. After that I will be ready. But, I could do it in the reverse order too, I guess. I don't have to decide it right now. But eventually there will be no turntable or cd player in my main system, only RTR deck, amps and speakers. Turntable and cd player will be in another system or in the closet until needed. |
Inna my TT is in moth balls, that's because I archived all LP's; and don't let no body kid you, that's just as good as playing the LP when you want to hear it, but first make sure all that PC stuff is kosure so that you can hear every nuance of a cartridge upgrade. It's better to go that way than straight to tape. Naturally whatever you do will sound better on playback. Just the thought of hauling this thing to be shipped makes my back ache. Good luck. |
Brecker with Goodrick! Can't ignore Steve Gadd. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSXs8o4msOQ And while were at it ,more Brecker, this time with Mike Stern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opOUa1KcvBw |
Ghosthouse, thanks for the "Jazz Pistols" clips. I agree with you that the playing is first rate; very tight with excellent rhythmic interaction. I particularly like the guitar player; lots of chops, inventive and with a very nice tone that reminds me a little bit of Scofield at times. I disagree that there are no musical ideas. Take the tune "Twenty"; musical idea No.1: the tune is in odd meter, in five (beats to the measure). On both tunes there is very interesting use of syncopation and changing tempos and grooves; very nice. The thing that was surprising to me, and I think it works, is that there is an easy quality to the way these guys play in odd meter (instead of the much more common and comfortable four) and this style in general that is a little disarming; a kind of understated quality. Most bands playing in similar styles dig into the rhythm a little more. While this may seem like a good thing always, in a way this can be a bit of a crutch for the performer; almost like when a player needs to tap his foot to the beat very strongly in order to keep the beat instead of simply feeling it in his internal clock. I like the lightness of the grooves. Very good drummer. I suspect that the title "Twenty" refers to twenty being a multiple of five; four sixteenth notes in each beat x five =20. Thanks for the introduction. |
Inna, that's the way it goes into the computer interface, and then into the computer. We went round and round, right here on the PC forum about which "interface" and they were discussing which "audiophile" card to use on Stereophile. In order to cut corners I modified an interface so heavily, I had to build a different case. But that's the way to go, straight from the Phono output. It's for sure you got the right idea. Although the computer stuff didn't cost much (as audiophile equipment goes) there was a lot of need to know for that project, and I don't know where you can find it all. The final outcome is just as good as the way you're talking, and it's so much more convenient, because you have a library for your reel. Have fun. |
Orpheus10, yes I know that you do analog/digital and then digital/analog conversion. But I think, I'll keep it analog without any conversions. Besides, my knowledge of computers approaches zero. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T0V0w6fzUM |
Acman3, Brecker! Probably the greatest virtuoso on the tenor saxophone ever; bar none. Love his playing. Fabulous! Interesting take on "Nothing Personal", my favorite tune from one of his best records. High intensity compared to the lighter approach on the record which features Jack DeJohnette and Pat Metheny. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FnZc-wekyFc Thanks for the Zappa clips. What can one say? Genius use of humor with virtuosity. He was one of a kind. Speaking of rock guitar players: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnzdp71U78 The infamous Senate testimony; very interesting and shows the depth of the man’s mind: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAF8Vu8G0w Great Jerry Bergonzi and Bob Mintzer clips too; thanks for those. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hmc6CovMj0 |
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9sn1NidtGU Check out Christian McBride; incredible! Those guys Metheny and Brecker aren’t too shabby either ☺️ For anyone who hasn’t heard Metheny in a more straight ahead setting this may be a revelation. |
Frogman, pleased someone else is liking Jazz Pistols. I could hear the time signatures were complex/unconventional and appreciate getting the technical details from you. The interaction between the three musicians is "tightly woven". Am not up to speed on all the latest links but did see Acman's mention of Michael Brecker. It just happens that another recent Spotify Browse/Discover recommendation was for "Steps Ahead" which as it turns out was a '70s fusion project by Mike Mainieri (vibes) that included Michael Brecker and Steve Gadd as well as Eddie Gomez and Don Grolnick. (Thank you Wikipedia) Here's a link to the track "Islands" from the eponymous release. After it, You Tube brought up another Steps Ahead track, "Safari", from an album called Modern Times. That sounds pretty good too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh1aSZF23mo&ab_channel=TheRealTobobias |
Be sure to check out the last link before your post for some amazing Metheny/Brecker. Great "Steps Ahead" clip; thanks. Probably my favorite Jazz-fusion band with an amazing ability to play in different styles, "Steps Ahead" began as simply "Steps" in the late 70's and as the rather informal project for Mike Manieri to feature his compositions. They had a regular gig at the, now gone, NYC jazz club "Seventh Ave. South". After several months of sold out gigs they released their debut live album which is perhaps my favorite of their records: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtcApAVo7q1KfNaC2BrUh2EkCkHwHWwkN In (I believe) 1980 Peter Erskine replaced Steve Gadd and Elian Elias replaced Don Grolnick. I posted this at least once before and features a nice version of the tune "Islands" in your clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8SAAMG8_o The band has reformed and is currently playing a Steps Ahead Reunion Tour. Donny McCaslin is a good young tenor player with the impossible job of stepping (😉) into Mike Brecker's shoes (what a sad loss!). The band sounds good but doesn't have the amazing tightness of the old "Steps Ahead". On the other hand, Elian Alias sounds fantastic: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjk3pm8g2x0 |
"Nothing Personal" Frogman, I've said many times how fortunate we are to have your input on this thread, just because you and I don't always see eye to eye, doesn't mean I don't appreciate the insight into music that you give us. While I don't speak, or always understand the learned language of a musician, I like having it around. Enjoy the music. |
Inna, I sometimes forget that I have a "Geek" who takes care of the computer stuff, because I don't know "squat" about computers. Since he told me there is no left and right channel inside a computer, I quit asking questions. Now when he sees I'm about to ask a question, he gets that look on his face that says "You wouldn't even understand after I told you". Flamenco Persian is nice. Enjoy the music. |
@inna - Can’t say I didn’t try, though possibly my last effort to find some mutually gratifying listening :-) Not jazz (apologies O) but "Modern Composition". Dunno if that’s the same as your "Neo-Classica"). Check out the Kuba Kapsa Ensemble. Kapsa: Vantdraught 10, Vol. 1 (2015) Kapsa: Vantdraught 4 (2016) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7YiXY09wI&ab_channel=KubaKapsaEnsemble-Topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL6pRTjmXWQ&ab_channel=KubaKapsaEnsemble-Topic A site that might prove useful to you is: a closer listen - A Home for Instrumental and Experimental Music. I’ve posted about this site elsewhere on A’gon. Here it is again: https://acloserlisten.com |
No Ghosthouse, I wouldn't listen to this. Anyone enjoys Joe Zawinul Sindicate music? Not that I do much but at least I can listen to it from time to time in limited quantity. I am somewhat surprised that so few people participate in this thread. Many exhibit their systems on the system page but little if any active participation. |
Frogman, Figures you would be "steps ahead". hahaha I did give a quick listen to the Metheny, Brecker, McBride Jazz Baltica 2003. I do like Metheny but that straight up jazz guitar stuff just doesn’t (usually) do much for me. I did not get too far into it. Maybe it just starts off slow. That being my usual response to "jazz guitar" is one reason the Les McCann "On Time" album with Joe Pass surprised me. I don’t expect to like such playing. This is not to say the Jazz Baltica performance is not objectively good! Just another demonstration of my "bad taste", no doubt. I’ll give it another go tonight. |
"Bad taste"? Not at all. No reason to go there; we all have our preferences. Curious, you really liked the Pat Martino fusion record, did you listen to the live clip with Joey DeFrancesco? If so, what did you think of his playing in that style?. Here it is again: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cyqJwJzGB0g |
Ghosthouse, on this thread, there is no such thing as bad taste, there is no such thing as "objective" music; if you don't like, you don't like it, end of story. I know exactly what you mean when you say "straight up jazz", I don't like it either when it's new guys blowing old jazz; that's because it's so "stereotypical", meaning these new guys are copying old guys licks, and I heard the licks when they were new; jazz licks are no good the second time around, their not like love. There's nothing "objective" about jazz, this is not mathematics, 2+2=4, that's objective; beauty is in the eye of the beholder in jazz. I don't care who it is, when the guy blows "crap" according to my ears, I say so; while others will argue that XY musician is incapable of blowing crap, I beg to differ. Ghosthouse, be true to thine own ears. Enjoy the music. |
Great Jazz Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9slpDoJ_H0k Kenneth Clarke is an extremely prominent figure in British Conservative politics. He has served in every Conservative Government since Margaret Thatcher. This current Government will be his last Parliament. He just wrote and published his memoir. It's titled: KIND OF BLUE. Yes, THAT, Kind of Blue. Great Jazz Aficionado. He is the namesake of the great Jazz drummer Ken Clarke. A real feel good story for true Jazz Lovers. Which may even include a few of you guys. 19 dollars hardcover on Amazon. Cheers |
Hello Rok. Been wondering where you were. Would say "welcome back" but that might be kind of presumptuous on my part (johnny come lately as it were)...never the less, WELCOME BACK! :-) Hey Frogman & O - my bad taste comment was made a little tongue in cheek but thanks for the consideration. Frogman - I have to agree a little bit with O on the Metheny. Now, I could be talking out my southern orifice and I do need to give that Baltica vid another shot but what O said is almost exactly the feeling I got. That is, Pat was sort of doing an imitation of something that just didn't come across with any conviction, energy, passion...whatever. Just seemed kinda tired to me. Like I said, could be southern orifice talkin'. On the other hand, I DON'T agree that young musicians playing old jazz material is automatically "bankrupt". The improvisational wonder of jazz should prevent that so long as they make it their own and bring something fresh to the game...or so I think. On another point, as i wrote in reply to Rok a while back, I'm one that thinks there are parameters by which music CAN be objectively evaluated. There's good and bad sh** independent of what I or anyone else thinks. I think this can influence the subjective experience too....education whether book learning' or on the job training (years of listening!) can inform taste AND taste as a discriminatory ability can be cultivated. Point being, the opinions of some are worth more to me than the opinions of others. The subjective response of someone with good taste carries more weight with me than someone without the education - however that eduction was gained. You realize, the two of you, that you are sort of the Yin & Yang of what's been (at least recently) an ongoing theme in this thread. Two sides of one truth. As far as the Pat Martino, Joey DeFrancesco "The Great Stream" - I missed that first time around. I don't keep up with all the music posted here. It's like this major buffet. Just can't eat it all. Pat's quite a talent. It blows my mind that he suffered an aneurysm and had to relearn his art from the ground up more or less. So props to Pat but after the first few minutes of his soloing I was getting a little restless. That's just me. How do these guys get up there night after night and find something new to say? I'm sure it's not all brand new every night. Passages get reworked and reused. Still the creative flow is amazing. Clapton has commented about the "burden" of being lead guitarist in Cream and sometimes running out of ideas - on stage! Got to be scary. I don't get any sense of that with Martino - not in that performance, anyway. For whatever reason, however, I sort of preferred Joey D.'s solo a bit more. Maybe because it was shorter, more concise? or I just like that Hammond sound. Will definitely share that clip w/my bro-in-law...a musician. So thanks to you both for my on-going jazz education. |
Inna, you'll benefit from what I'm going to tell you whether you get a reel or not, but especially if you get a reel. My set up goes out of the phono, into a highly modified interface. They didn't have "audiophile" interfaces then, but they do now. Out of the interface, into a Blaster Audigy 2Z 5 card on the computer, that's what you need to archive vinyl. You can probably get a better card for your computer now. It's a good idea to go on the PC forum for help; they understand that we're audiophiles, and don't know squat about computers, those guys are very helpful. With your computer you can have a vinyl library, that will be identical in regard to quality as the way you were talking about doing it. That's the way people did it before computers; now, even the most finicky audiophiles are doing it this way because whether you get a reel or not, you still want a vinyl library in your computer. Those PC guys are experts, and they will help you. Have fun. |
Ghosthouse, if you get a chance to listen to these, I’d be curious to know what you think: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nU3OwXyL5R8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yhO4r9yXpIQ https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC6556E715379CC6D |
Orpheus10, I will keep the orthodox tradition and best sound possible by avoiding conversions. Nor do I need to have record library in the computer. By the way, computers break down all the time including hard drives, your collection their is not safe unless perhaps you also have it on external hard drive, which is more reliable, though can deteriorate too. No-one I know keeps valuable things only in their computers. Besides, one power surge and computer is gone. Yes, there are some people capable of retrieving information from seemingly ruined hard drives, but that's complicated and expensive. I will take a leave of this thread now, will be back in a few weeks. Clearly, whatever people currently post here is not really worth my attention. You and I do have certain common ground especially when it comes to acoustic guitar and more unusual music. But I strongly disagree with your statement that there is no such thing as bad taste and that everything is subjective, that's kind of equally valid. However, this subject is far beyond and above this thread and this forum. Just a word of caution. I read a number of posts on Audiogon written by amateur psychologists at best and people having no idea of those things at worst. Let us try to refrain from discussing complicated matters here belonging somewhere else. |
Inna, my arrogant friend, in regard to computers, you are living in the stone age; when you get to "Bedrock" tell Wilma and Fred hello for me. Your "tunnel vision" prevents you from seeing what's around you, it would be safer if you let someone else drive if that's necessary. The less people know, the less they consider worthy of their attention, that's easily understandable. On this thread, we discuss whatever we deem worthy of discussion. The fact that you only deemed one tiny genre of music worthy of your attention is indicative of tunnel vision. Have a safe journey and, and may the force be with you. |
I never thought I would see the day that some self-important 'Audiophile' could come on 'Jazz for Aficionados', insult everyone and then waltz away unscathed. Although, he did warn us he would be back. Reminded me of General MacArthur after he left the Philippines and arrived is Australia. " I Shall Return ". aahaaahha The old Ellington tune: "Aficionados Ain't What They Used To Be", comes to mind. Cheers |
O-10, those are indeed beautiful records; glad we agree. The post was intended mostly for Ghosthouse as I would like to get a better sense of what he likes and doesn’t like in jazz guitar in order to put it all in better perspective so as to better understand his feeling that Metheny sounds "tired" in the recent clip. Ghosthouse, nice comments. While I don’t agree that Metheny sounds tired and without conviction, my comments were not meant to suggest that his playing in that clip was an example of the greatest jazz guitar playing ever. I felt it would be interesting for those who have only heard him in his usual atmospheric, almost "New Agey" vibe to hear him in that setting. I do think that he doesn’t sound, tone-wise or ideas-wise, like anyone else; so, from that standpoint we don’t agree. I would still like to know, and more importantly, how you liked the performance as a whole; especially Brecker who is always the antithesis of tired. One of the problems with sharing ideas in a necessarily limited venue like this is that it is always difficult to put the full meaning of our thoughts into words. Example: O-10 suggested, and I completely agree, that you should trust your own ears; iow, you don’t owe anyone an explanation of why you don’t like something (at least, that’s how I would explain it). Now, and of course, if there is going to be dialogue, without explanations dialogue is pointless. Here’s the bigger issue: I am not sure wether his comments were in reference to that particular clip or were general comments about one of his pet peaves, "stereotypical" jazz. This is not meant as a criticism of O-10 in any way; just a statement of fact. You and I agree that "straight ahead" Jazz by young players is not "automatically bankrupt" (great term). Why would it be? The Jazz in that clip is anything but "stereotypical"; hence my challenge for someone to post playing by older players that sounds like those guys. I don’t believe there is any. If we are talking about the level of intensity or commitment then that is a different story; those are values that apply to any style. Although I don’t like the term "stereotypical", were I to use it, it would apply to playing in a neo-swing, neo-hard bop style or things like the recreation of the music of Duke Ellington by bands like the LCJB. But even then, there is so much new music that can be considered hard-bop that is still far more adventurous harmonically and rhythmically than your typical Blue Note thing that it just makes the case for why that kind of label is fairly meaningless. I have always felt that we tend to paint these things with WAY too broad a brush. There is A LOT of nuance in Jazz that, in my experience, is often missed or overlooked in comparison to other genres where the visceral elements of the music are a bigger part of the overall aesthetic. As a possible example of what I mean: You like Joey DeFrancesco’s "The Great Stream" solo more than Martino’s. Both are great solos by any standard, imo. DeFrancesco’s solo is undoubtedly more visceral. However, for me (and, I believe, from an objective point of view), while Martino plays within a narrower dynamic spread, I find his solo to have much more of what is acknowledged to be one of the hallmarks of great improvisation: musical logic. The kind of logic that ties his improvised musical ideas in a musical stream (😉) of notes from beginning to end; each new idea relates to the one that came before it so that the solo can stand on its own as a composition. DeFrancesco’s solo, great and exciting as it is, loses that focus at a few points and the ideas don’t relate to each other as completely and as logically. There are a couple of moments when, to my ears, he’s trying to figure out where to go next; not so with Martino. Anyway, just some thoughts on what rocks my boat. I love it when someone wants to explore new music and particularly when it is done, like you do, with an open mind and far more curiosity and eagerness than ego; kudos to you. Inna, while our musical tastes are very different in some ways (not all) I, as perhaps you already know, completely agree with your premise about the objective/subjective issue. It’s too bad that you don’t find enough of interest here and I would only point out that on this thread the focus on particular styles is cyclical; perhaps "in a few weeks" the discussion topics will be more to your liking. I must say, however, that I find it curious that you were drawn to this thread when, by your own admission, you "stopped listening to classical jazz a long time ago". If you feel so inclined, I would be interested in more of your thoughts about the objective/subjective issue. Btw, Joe Zawinal is one of my favorite musicians. Regards to all. |
"I would like to get a better sense of what he likes and doesn’t like in jazz guitar...." Hey Frogman - Good luck with that! since I don't even know what I like or don't like - at least not until I hear it. To be clear, I wasn't ripping on Pat in any general way about his more conventional jazz playing. He is arguably the embodiment of musical innovation for various reasons. I was simply conveying an impression from my brief sampling of his playing on that Baltica clip. Not to say all his "straight up jazz" playing would be that way. I need to listen to more of that Baltica performance as well as your other three "assignments". [Yeesh - I wasn't serious about Jazz 101!!] Will get back to you on that/those. I hear what you are saying about the Pat Martino vs Joey DeFrancesco solos. Another example of a head/heart dichotomy, maybe. PM's might be objectively superior but Joey D. still carried the day - at least for me. I shared that clip with my bro in law - no mean pianist himself. His comment back was, in his opinion, Joey DeFrancesco might be THE best jazz organist. He admires him a LOT. Inna's parting post was perplexing but kind of entertaining at the same time. At the risk of playing amateur psychologist (he did warn about this) I do often wonder what insecurities or deficiencies some posters are compensating for given the tone of their communications. Orpheus - The Flintstones reference made me chuckle. What a great show that was. |
Frogman, that "stereotypical" was in reference to the "sax riffs" in so much of current jazz that is most certainly unoriginal, and I've heard it so many times before. Any time you say "Jazz", I can be certain of those same riffs; that's what I'm talking about. I always over generalize to make my point. |
Certainly is good for the soul; and one of the reasons I have been on this thread for so long ......just kidding (mostly 😊). Loved the Flinstones! In case anyone cares: The well known theme song for "The Flinstones" is a "contrafact". A contrafact is a tune that uses the exact same chord progression of a pre-existing tune. The Flinstones theme uses the chord progression of George Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm"; a chord progression often referred to in Jazz parlance as simply "Rhythm changes". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hByFDVwiQq8 Now, try singing the Flinstones theme along with Sarah singing "I Got Rhythm"; it works! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5G7UIeYGq0k |
Hello again, Frogman... I’m afraid I don’t have anything too profound for you w/r to the Pat Metheny Quartet, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall or Kenny Burrell links. I think what I have to admit is I’m not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar. Not sure I’d voluntarily spend time listening to any of the three album links you posted. I did/do prefer the Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell albums to the other performances. In fact, I had Burrell’s Blue saved in Spotify so, since the SQ is better streaming that, I put it on and have it playing now. As I finish typing this, the Wes Montogomery (track called, Four on Six) is playing. That really is a fine album. Might be something that grows on me. I’ll see if I’m drawn back to it. Why do I like these over the others? Probably a combination of factors and nothing that signifies an absolute preference for Burrell or Mongomery regardless of context or material. I don’t wish to offend but I don’t care for the "typical" jazz guitar sound...as shallow a reason as that may be! It’s kind of a soporific to me. Jazz guitarists seem to go for this sort of rounded off, muted, mellow sound. Like nylon strings except I’m pretty sure they aren’t all using nylon. No bite. I feel like the guitar is on novocaine...or I am. In the case of the Jim Hall performance...a general anaesthetic or a medically induced coma. Maybe that’s the tradition. Dunno. I do like the sweetness of a hollow body but got to moderate that with a little "attitude". Burrell and Montgomery seemed to have a little more edge in their tone (though not in your face rock guitar by any means). I listened to 15 minutes of the Baltica concert (2 songs). Compare Pat’s sound to Brecker’s. The sax was so much more expressive. Maybe that’s what you meant when you said Joey DeFrancesco’s sound was more dynamic than Pat Martino’s (I think that was the gist of your comment). Not much fire in that kind of guitar sound - in my O-pinion. Burrell and Montgomery have that similar sound but with a little bit more edge to their tone...well, sometimes. I happen to really enjoy the blues so the Burrell Blue album was already at an advantage over the others. Again if it were Wes or Pat Metheny playing the blues, might like them as much or more. BUT this is leading somewhere in that, I’m often thinking in listening to jazz guitar (as in quite a few of these recent links) "TOO MANY NOTES!". And why do all the tempos (tempi?) have to be "molto allegro"?...from scores that must be black with 16ths and 32nds!! I’m exaggerating, of course. The Burrell Blue and Wes Montgomery were a welcome change of pace and the compositions and songs were not all busy busy. By the way, who is the pianist on the Wes Montgomery? Great tasteful soloing; (e.g., on Mr. Walker)? I prefer a solid connection to melody. The connection of the Baltica playing with a melodic source seemed kind of tenuous to me (in the first 2 compositions, anyway). Same applies to that Martino/DeFrancesco Great Stream performance. I just don’t enjoy things that sound like abstract noodling. In this regard, the Wes Montgomery works for me being song-based, grounded, concise playing. Which is not to say I don’t enjoy more abstract song structure. In another post, some other time, I can give you some examples that I enjoy. Will also try to provide links to jazz(ish) guitar playing that I do like. Best I can do. Just not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar, I guess. Ciao. |
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Best I can do. Just not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar, I guess. ***** Montgomery and Burrell are examples of 'The Traditional Jazz Guitar'. You mentioned being put in a coma by certain music. That's not the first time certain music on this thread has been described that way. In fact quite a bit of it has been posted recently. Welcome to Jazz-Jazz. As the good book tells us, No Blues, No Jazz. Know Blues, Know Jazz. Check out "Smokin' At The Half Note" by Montgomery, with Wynton Kelly(piano), Paul Chambers(bass), and Jimmy Cobb(drums). Cheers |
Hello again, Rok - I think what I have to admit is I’m not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar. Not sure I’d voluntarily spend time listening to any of the three album links you posted. I did/do prefer the Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell albums to the other performances. I do like the sweetness of a hollow body but got to moderate that with a little "attitude". Burrell and Montgomery seemed to have a little more edge in their tone (though not in your face rock guitar by any means). Thanks for taking time to comment. I realize Burrell and Montgomery are "traditional jazz guitarists". I’ll also acknowledge my preference for them wasn’t due to a discriminating ear that let me hear unique and superior differences in their individual styles (tho’ there’s something about WM’s playing that has caught my ear - but I don’t know how to verbalize it). I thought their tone had a little more edge than Martino’s or Metheny’s in the respective clips of them that Frogman had posted. Not quite so "muted"! Another reason I preferred them being that both their albums were song-based jazz vs the longer, improvisation-heavy live performances from both PMs. I do enjoy live improv...but not so much where there’s a disconnect to the original melody (if there ever was one). I still recall that excellent Wynton Marsalis big band concert you posted. Enjoyed that a lot (of course, no jazz guitar featured in that one :-). In all 4 cases that Frogman posted, the quality of the playing is absolutely excellent. Martino and Metheny like Paganini on guitar. It’s strictly a matter of personal preference (i.e., my taste at it’s current level of development!). Thanks for the Wes Montgomery recommendation. I’d be very curious what recent music suggestions you personally found sleep-inducing. Here’s something my bro-in-law sent after I shared that Pat Martino/Joey DeFrancesco Great Stream performance. It really smokes. Still not crazy about the guitar tone but Frank Vignola’s playing is amazing. Still, what is up with the tempo? Is breakneck speed de rigueur in jazz? I know not all compositions and performances are at this tempo but since so many are it almost seems "cliche" to me or is this just another jazz convention?? Anyway, check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R51WVtvUxI&app=desktop&ab_channel=LegacyBluesNWA BTW - Smokin’ At The Half-Note is really good! (guess I’m not the first to ever say that...hahaha). Enjoying it. Love how Wes changes things up on his solos. Not this endless cascade of rushing notes. He lets things breathe. Breaks it up with chords. No Blues, at least, working for me. The rest of the band is definitely killer too. Wynton Kelly another new name for me. Thanks, Rok. |
Ghosthouse, thanks for your comments. No offense taken. How could I possibly be offended that you didn't particularly like three of the records on most jazz guitar fans' "top ten" lists. Yikes! I am not really surprised that you didn't particularly like those records given what you have posted as your preferred guitar styles. As I, and O-10, have said previously "we likes what we likes"; no excuses necessary. What I would say is that I predict that as you listen to more and more jazz your opinion about those will change. A couple of further thoughts: While tone is certainly an important element of any jazz player's personal musical identity, for whatever it may be worth, it is dogma among players that it is a distant second to what the player is saying via phrasing and choice of notes; the nuances in his rhythmic feel and his harmonic vocabulary. From that standpoint, I am surprised that your comments focused almost entirely on tone. As far as the bigger picture goes, and maybe this is a "semantics" issue, there really is nothing "abstract" about any of that music;. ALL of it, including the improvisations, are within the harmonic frameworks of the "tune"with practically no straying from it (abstract). Nice clip of Frank Vignola. He's a great player who was "looked at" a while back and who is very active in the traditional swing scene. As far as the "breakneck tempos" go: that's bebop for ya. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zwXNB9kkTSg |
On "Bird Gets the Worm" nobody can play that fast, and sound good at the same time. That was Miles Davis (trumpet), Duke Jordan (piano), Tommy Potter (bass) and Max Roach (drums), all of whom have a solo on this track. Wes Montgomery appeals to a wide variety of people; I believe it's because he has such a warm and "mellow tone"; I compare it to gazing at the blaze in a fireplace while at the same time you can see the snow falling through the window. Enjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, I find jazz is about moods; Hank Crawford's soulful sax is sounding good today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNLIl2yEfro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2doxAtCfRnE Enjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, hope there will be enough time time to change your taste about jazz guitar. For start, maybe we should post some albums where famous guitar players are part of line up, not leaders. Here are few albums where Kenny Burrell played. I have many more, almost I cant find any album where he played that I did not like With Paul Chambers 'Bass on top' from1956. https://youtu.be/-hEaKtTRrJY So, you have said that you liked Wynton Kelly, here is album where Kenny Burrell plays, with Chambers too. 'Piano' from 1958. https://youtu.be/B2nyZC6KLO8 Same year with Milt Jackson and Coleman Hawkins 'Bean Bags' https://youtu.be/XnvUEIPRb1g Another with sax player. Ike Quebec 'Soul Samba 'from 1963. https://youtu.be/1uY6zlfR7pM Again, piano player, Bill Evans, with Burrell Playing 'Quintessence' from 1976. https://youtu.be/qBp1WESsOTU https://youtu.be/qj7wkx4QClw With Tommy Flanagan on 'Beyond the blue bird' from1990. https://youtu.be/GmZKgaEce9I That could keep you busy, for now. Hope you will like something |
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I’d be very curious what recent music suggestions you personally found sleep-inducing.***** Anything from the third world with the word "trance" in the title. ahahahahaha Anything that O-10 posts while tripping in unexplored parts of the world. Anything played by players wearing t-shirts, or jeans or baseball caps, or all of the above. Flamenco being passed off as Jazz. Cheers I'm a Southerner. I'm stuck in the past and can't get out. |