I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
I liked the blues when I was in a "blues joint" that smelled like whisky wine and beer, with a lady who was crying on my shoulder cause her old man done left her.
In my young years there were more blues bands in St. Louis than you could shake a stick at. Almost every weekend I saw Albert King, and there were other blues bands all over town; plus most of the blues bands presented came to St. Louis; it must have been between Mississippi and Chicago.
Even now, when I hear the the "Delta Blues" I smell whisky wine and beer.
Alex, although most music is about the projection of what the artist "feels", the Blues is much more intense; it projects a way of life, as well as what the song is about. Anytime someone who has not lived that life tries to sing the blues, it comes across as what it is "imitation", because he can not supply the missing ingredient; the soul of a "Blues man" who has lived the life he's expressing.
Hey Rok- Below is Frogman’s post (10/15/16 8:35 AM) that I was replying to. This immediately followed Orpheus’ Wiki post about your International Sweethearts of Rhythm). (Where do you find this stuff?!) Didn’t realize you had said anything earlier about "bogus". Must have missed that. As a result, since I wasn’t responding to anything you wrote, your reply to what I wrote, while interesting, is not quite on target. You make some interesting points...though I don’t know if I agree with all; e.g., Blues IS a musical form that can be found in a text book, but it’s way more than that...a legacy derived from a vanishing culture tied to important period of American history. The Romantic in me is sorry to see that culture go, but I get where Orpheus is coming from too.
If you have 100s of blues recording and in none of those heard a white boy playing authentic blues, than I think your answer has to be something other than "I don’t know." But that really doesn’t surprise me.
From Frogman... Nice "segue", Ghosthouse, in light of the recent discussion re Sanborn/Crawford; don’t know if it was intentional or not. The alto solo on that clip of Paul Butterfield’s band is by none other than Dave Sanborn where he earned his stripes for several years before becoming the R&B/pop alto star that he became. That was his first record with the band and shows him still not fully developed as the stylist that he would become. Here is some more bogus blues 😉; I posted this not long ago. Recorded ten years later, Sanborn’s tone is fully morphed into what became his signature edgy and overtone-rich sound:
Alex - Good comments. Valid but different is my takeaway about what you think re black vs white musicians doing the blues. Did not understand the "pretending to play blues" comment, however. The words were perfectly understandable but I’m not with you on that one. I’m not arguing against your point just need an example or two to better understand where you are coming from. I will check out the links you posted. Still have to sample the rest of your Kenny Burrell links!
Rok - thanks for your many links. I’m particularly interested in tracking down that "In This House, On This Morning" Wynton Marsalis reference.
Stevie Ray Vaughn is an artist who runs counter to my last post; he picked up some of Albert Kings licks, and added some of his own; his music is authentic. Most jazz and blues musicians build their foundation on the musicians that went before them, and go from there.
I'm not saying SRV is an Albert King clone; that's where he picked up his foundation and went from there.
Ghosthouse, what I said has nothing with those music posts attached My point was somewhere close to Orpheus words.There is lots of ’blues’, or music played in that key, with lyrics to go with, that sounds totally ’bogus’ to me. Normally I would not react to it (there is so many ’false’ music around in any genre, meaning just words instead of real meaning behind it) but somehow with blues man expects to hear ’genuine’ emotions or experience shared, or at least great interpretation of it, because everybody ’had the blues’ at one point or another in their life. And than, sometimes, instead, man can hear that ’cheesy’ stuff, pretending to be the ’real’ thing. Somehow I feel more ’offended’ when I hear ’bad’ music in form of ’blues’ than in other types.
Not close, No Cigar. His dress (too flashy) and demeanor are all wrong. Plays too loud, too fast and too many notes. In Blues, its the singing, not the guitar. Check out B.B. King.
You're absolutely correct Rok, when you compare to the "Delta Blues"; but I was referring to his authenticity as a musician; let's give him a new genre, and call it the SRV Texas Blues. Will that work?
You and I know the complete story of the "Delta Blues", and only the musicians who lived it can sing it; there's something missing with others who imitate it.
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This immediately followed Orpheus’ Wiki post about your International Sweethearts of Rhythm). (Where do youfindthis stuff?!) *****
I found a signed photo of the band while going through family photos and news clippings. Google did the rest. I also knew of the Piney Wood School because a friend of the family, who became B.B. King's first wife, attended that school. Quite a famous school back in the day.
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.though I don’t know if I agree with all; e.g., Blues IS a musical form that can be found in a text book, but it’s way more than that...a legacy derived from a vanishing culture tied to important period of American history *****
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call it the SRV Texas Blues. Will that work?*****
Alas, 'Texas Blues' is a legitimate branch of the blues. For some reason there are quite a few Blues players in Texas of his Ilk. Started with that 'Big Brother and the Holding Company' woman. Can't recall her name now.
But, what the hell. If Blind Lemon Jefferson does not complain, it's OK.
Alex - I gotcha. This seems like another of those quick sand/subjective areas - maybe. Kinda like Rok and Orpheus discussion about what constitutes (authentic) blues. Leastways, it seems that way to me.
I'd be real interested in something you would nominate as an example of insincere blues...not trying to pick a fight, just curious (I certainly don't doubt they are out there).
Yes -understood. I did not think your music links were intended as examples of "bad blues".
Does anybody beside me think this trolley has jumped it's tracks again? While this is not the first time, and I'm sure it wont be the last time. I think I'll attempt to get it back on the tracks in stages, like maybe a jazz vocal; Jacintha is a name I haven't heard much of.
Sorry O - My fault. Didn't realize what would follow posting that Paul Butterfield link.
[But please do allow one last word from me on the Blues. Acman - YES! Rory is great. I have a high regard for him. Check out the Irish Tour '74 documentary if you get the chance. Bullfrog Blues is in it. ]
I wonder (not!) what the reaction would be if someone were to suggest that black people can't play Classical music? Our perception of "authenticity" in any music cannot be separated entirely from our individual life experiences and resulting biases (and, in some cases, feelings of guilt). When you get right down to it, what is the difference, at their core, between the feeling conveyed by the blues as performed by the great black blues artists and the feelings in any traditional ethnic music of any other culture which expresses similar feelings about that people's troubles and woes. To my way of thinking "the blues" is universal. Anyone listen to Shostakovich or Lecuona lately? It's the blues....in their respective cultures.
++++“I'm a bluesman moving through a blues-soaked America, a blues-soaked world, a planet where catastrophe and celebration- joy and pain sit side by side. The blues started off in some field, some plantation, in some mind, in some imagination, in some heart. The blues blew over to the next plantation, and then the next state. The blues went south to north, got electrified and even sanctified. The blues got mixed up with jazz and gospel and rock and roll.” ― Cornel West, Brother West: Living and Loving Out Loud, A Memoir++++
++++I've said that playing the blues is like having to be black twice. Stevie Ray Vaughan missed on both counts, but I never noticed. B. B. King++++
++++The Blues is Life. -Brownie McGhee++++
++++Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. -Charlie Parker++++
For the second time in a single day, I'm forced to agree with you. Now if I could just match Rachelle's voice with Jacintha's whatever, I would have it all in one woman.
Not that Rachelle is bad looking, she's good looking, just not exotic.
Some might say Rachelle's version of "Autumn leaves" is over the top, but I like "over the top" this time; especially the way she does it. That group is boss.
Ghosthouse, no need to apologize as far as I am concerned. You are new to the thread and I assure you that as "drama" is concerned this "blues" episode didn't even move the needle. Feel free with what you write. As provocateurs go, you are a saint (so far 😊). I do hope you understand that my earlier comments were not critical of you in any way; au contraire.
Personally, I wouldn't mind one bit staying on the subject of the blues.
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I wonder (not!) what the reaction would be if someone were to suggest that black people can't play Classical music? *****
I have seen several Black folks playing classical music in symphony orchestras on TV and the internet. I only know of one Black person that performs Classical music as a soloist. I am excluding Opera.
So, why are there not more Black soloists? Could it be that playing off a score in a large group is different than putting your own take / feelings into well known pieces that will grab Classical audiences? Could it be that European folks have more of an affinity for the music? I defer to the Oracle of NYC.
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When you get right down to it, what is the difference, at their core, between the feeling conveyed by the blues as performed by the great black blues artists and the feelings in any traditional ethnic music of any other culture which expresses similar feelings about that people's troubles and woes. *****
None. I don't get your point. We are talking about a particular ethnic music.
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Anyone listen to Shostakovich or Lecuona lately? It's the blues....in their respective cultures. *****
It should be. Shostakovich was nothing more that a Stalinist lackey who helped send many composers to the Gulag. He has good reason to have whatever passes for Russian Blues. ahhhahhh Never heard of lecuona.
West is a jerk, but there is nothing wrong with his statement.
Would you really expect B.B. to say anything negative about another player? esp on the record. We know the answer they will give to 99% of the questions, 99% of the time.
Parker and McGhee? OK, so what?
FYI, the great blues song writer, Willie Dixon, said Blues is the Truth. I think he nailed it.
****great blues song writer, Willie Dixon, said Blues is the Truth. I think he nailed it.****
Funny, I thought that what exactly what I was saying. Beyond that, I think my comments are fairly clear. It's late; maybe tomorrow. Btw, nice Dee Dee. Ferrell? Yikes! What was she thinking? Everything but the kitchen sink. I always ask myself when listening to a singer scat, what would that sound like coming out of a horn? Thanks for the clips.
Ghosthouse, you said you were interested in knowing more about Don Cherry. That little horn is what's called a "pocket trumpet"; that was his favorite horn when he was in his Tibetan Buddhist phase, Milarepa is one of Tibet's most famous poets.
He went through many different phases, but his Tibetan Buddist phase is my favorite, and "Brown Rice" is among my most cherished albums.
Rok, said this one reminded him of Miles Davis's aunt Corine who made her living telling people's fortune. When the price was right, she could even make their fortunes.
Hello O. Yup..."pocket trumpet" came to mind after I asked the question so I looked that up. Don is actually mentioned in the Wiki entry for that type of trumpet. The think I find interesting is that they claim the sound is the same as a conventionally sized trumpet. Seems unlikely but that's what is says...so, the obvious question, why did Don prefer it? Surely something other than the packing convenience. Thanks for the other links to more of him.
Frogman - No offense taken. Didn't read anything as being critical of me. Some great quotes on the blues. What would be interesting in the discussion here is to read some exploration of the connection between blues and jazz. What music falls is in that "transition" zone? I'm wondering if some of the stuff in Toussaint's "Bright Mississippi" might be examples of this.
Listened to more Jazz Pistols last night. Their "live" is very good...might be better even than the studio Superstring.
Thanks as ever for your input about PBBB, Sanborne and that soprano sax player with the (French?) "gypsy" guitarist...forget his name. We don't like Kenny G. (though I thought he played clarinet!). Call him the "noodler". What vapid stuff. My earlier, earlier comment about not being a fan of soprano sax was based entirely on Coltrane's sound! I didn't know it could have a different more pleasing tone. Hard to keep up with this thread.
Rok - who is this oracle of NYC you've mentioned a couple of times?
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Rok - who is this oracle of NYC you've mentioned a couple of times?
Now Frogman hold up, calm down, control yourself, chill!!!! He's new, he didn't know what he was asking, he didn't mean no harm, show mercy!!! He won't make this mistake again, I swear!!
The Oracle of NYC?? That would be The Frogman. He is our goto guy for all things Jazz / music, save good taste.
Okay...the NYC oracle = Frogman. Personally, I’d be adding him for a consult on matters of taste too (just saying’).
Christian McBride is definitely an outstanding bass player. Another great example of his talent in that Metheny/Brecker Baltica performance that Frogman posted. For me, he mighta been the best part of the first 15 minutes or so that I watched.
Thanks, Ghosthouse. You see....now you’re starting to get a good taste of the kind of bantering that goes on here; well, usually only when certain posters are active. Never take comments too personally. Rok is one of those individuals (not the only one here) who feels very threatened by commentary backed by irrefutable facts and logic which may show that some of his long-held ideas about music may be, juuuust may be, mistaken; or, at the very least, so tainted by personal bias that he feels the need to then be abrasive and insulting when confronted with disagreement. Recent example: He will completely bash SRV to the extent that he feels he just KNOWS that BB King’s praise of SRV is bogus; yet, he will post clips (for God knows how many times) of a third rate swing big band "(Sweethearts"), or ridiculous scat singing, or, or. Truth is, he wants to be considered the "Oracle Of Texas". This has been going on for close to four years, but I still like him 😘. He’ll never admit it, but deep inside he knows better.
You opened the door, Rok. I love you, man!
Ghosthouse, get the popcorn, watch what happens next.
Great Cannonball, O-10; thanks. My favorite alto player. This record with John Coltrane as co-leader is classic and features some of the best Cannonball on record. Check out Cannonball's opening solo break on "Limehouse Blues"; amazing! And, of course, the best version of the beautiful "Stars Fell On Alabama" (4:41) that I have ever heard:
Yes - I've been checking in here periodically over the years. Sometimes the family squabbles are entertaining. Sometimes a little tedious. Rok do have attitude (or, as they would say in NE Phila., at-tee-tood) along with some strongly held positions.
But enough of this chitter chatter... Check out the Jazz Pistols recording, "live". From the opening crowd noise, sounds like a small venue. The SQ is very good. So is the playing.
Jim Carrey is genius. The "out take scene" in the bakery at the end of Bruce Almighty when he does Sammy Davis Jr. singing The Candyman is screamingly funny (well, it was to me). I looked on-line but those unused bits ain't quite as good as what I recall being in the movie.
This is an example of a phenomena that is played out across this country all the time. I will explain in a moment.
First ask yourself this question: Under what circumstances or scenario do you see B.B. King commenting on SRV?
1. Is he a big fan of SRV? Owns all his records. Praises him at every opportunity?
2. Did he see SRV perform Live, or on TV and then jumped up and called the media to tell them what a great blues player he is?
3. Was he asked by a member of the media, or interviewer, to comment on SRV?
Since you are an Oracle, you already know the answer. For the sake of any mere mortals that may be watching, the answer is #3.
Why would they do that you might ask. Well, it's done all the time, esp if it's an interracial thing.
IOW, The black person at the top of their profession, will be asked to comment on, up and coming, or lesser whites in the same profession.
Also, The white person at the top of their profession will be asked to comment on, up and coming, or lesser blacks in the same profession.
The comments will always be positive and encouraging.
It's a seal of approval type thing. It's a game that's played by the PR folks. If Mingus says you can play, YOU CAN PLAY!! That will be printed a billion times in countless articles.
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he will post clips (for God knows how many times) of a third rate swing big band "(Sweethearts"), or ridiculous scat singing, *****
The Sweethearts were not third rate. Only a person with zero knowledge of music history would make a silly statement like that. They represented people that overcame almost impossible odds, to do something great. After all, this was 1930's Mississippi. This should be enough to call your position as Oracle into question. ' Ridiculous Scat singing?? I have never thought of the Ferrell clip as scat singing. I realized she did it, but that was not what the clip is about. What it was about is passion. I know that is foreign in your type of Jazz, but quite common in other types.
Sometimes you Oracles can't hear the music for the critical analysis.
Although we've gone back and forth on various issues, each person sees "reality" only from their point of view; therefore whenever the discussion is over, nothing seems to have been gained.
For example; Frogman is forever talking about musical technicalities, while I couldn't care less if the musician couldn't even read music, because I sense music, I feel music, and he sees music as it could be written. Which is why he's always talking about the "objective".
Assuming we're all "audiophiles" to some degree; it takes 95% objective rationale and reasoning to build a speaker or amplifier, but we judge and purchase it based on primarily "subjective" reasons; we like the way it sounds.
I don't know squat about music, nor do I need to know. How much do any of you know about designing a "crossover"? Do you feel that you need to know something about crossovers? Of course you don't need to know about crossovers to enjoy your rig. Neither do I need to know squat about music in order to enjoy it.
Since I'm an electronics technician, I listen more objectively than you; but that's only when I want to make an improvement or detect something wrong; I really don't enjoy the music listening in that fashion, I would much rather get absorbed by the "soul" of the music.
So much of the music eludes someone who listens in a technical fashion, that it's easy to see how they would have trouble understanding someone who simply gets absorbed in the essence of the music; we each have our own unique reality.
Rok, possibly your best written post ever. Unfortunately, with some serious issues in the area of content. First of all, Rok, you are the one who has decided to apply the term "Oracle"; and sarcastically at that. So, please feel free to demote me to whatever other designation you please. I don’t want nor like titles; especially silly ones like that.
No matter what you imagine to be or surmise are BB’s reasons for saying what he said about SRV, you have no way of knowing what is in his heart about him. I prefer to take him at his word and hence assume that this paragon of The Blues (BB) is, in fact, not a hypocrite and respects and believes enough in the art form to not be insincere with his accolades. The inconsistencies and contradictions in your stances about some of these issues are stark. You have posted those OK (and no more) clips of your idol Wynton Marsalis with Eric Clapton playing the blues more times than I can remember. Is Wynton, Oracle of all things jazz (to you), also a hypocrite? Certainly, there are in existence countless clips of Wynton’s band that don’t include Clapton. So, why?
That the "Sweethearts" overcame many odds during their time is not the issue here; the quality of their music is. It’s pretty good. Compared to the bands at the top of the big band scene at the time, bands like Duke, Basie, Goodman, Shaw and others, they are decidedly derivative and third rate. The mentioned bands had ground breaking composers and influential soloists that would do much to shape the genre and, as soloists, shape the direction of jazz as a whole. Name one player or composer associated with "The Sweethearts" that you can say that about. The novelty appeal was a huge part of their success. They were pretty good and no more. Third rate. If it makes you feel better....second rate (not!). Conservative thinker that you are would consider merit only, no? This whole issue makes my case about personal bias influencing our (your) outlook on pet issues.
Ferrell: Oh, I see, it was about PASSION. Sure thing. The ridiculous scatting didn’t count and was not part of this PASSION. Tasteless, over the top passion; I get it. And, oh yes, before I forget, very out of tune singing also, by the standards of great singers. C’mon, man, even the band in that clip is just ok. Just because a performer appears to be totally into the performace does not make it good. Facial contortions do not passion make. You like it, good for you; for me, fingernails on a chalkboard.
Now, the bigger picture (of this thread), Rok: I hope this little and latest squabble served some purpose for you; you apparently seem to need this sort of thing periodically. Personally, eventhough I will stand up to your abrasiveness and bs when directed at me, I find it all terribly wasteful. I know that you will always be right (in your mind). I don’t really mind that as I have no vested interest in "being right". What I do think is important is a modicum of respect and self control re personal issues when posting and addressing other participants; especially when disagreeing.
The issue of why there aren’t more posters on this thread has come up recently and previously. It is not that there aren’t more jazz fans out there; it is bs like this.
Cheers to you too (what did you think of Cannonball’s "Stars Fell.."?)
Edit: O-10, I just read your most recent post. As I am sure it is for you, my main interest is in the promotion and vitality of this thread about this great music. As countless times before, there are some basic flaws and inaccuracies in your statements. You insist in assuming that because someone can listen to music with the "technical" as part of the whole experience that the "emotional" is missed. That is complete and utter nonsense that serves only to buttress your choice to completely ignore technical considerations. You nor anyone else have a monopoly on appreciating the emotional aspects of music. As I wrote recently both things inform each other for an even deeper understanding. To suggest otherwise is simple defensiveness. I am not "forever" talking about the technical at all. I often do; but your aversion and close mindedness about it also shuts your mind to seeing how that is only a part of what I talk about. Moreover to suggest that you know how I "see" or hear music is simply arrogant and misguided. As I also said to Rok, as far as the bigger picture of this thread goes, I would encourage you to take a closer look at patterns over the life of this thread that point to when it is that there is more active participation from other members here in relation to the amount of silly bickering, clickishness, and judgmental comments like the ones you have just made; and, when it is that there is less participation and no new posters while the thread becomes not much more than a two way conversation between you and Rok. Just as with Rok, the inconsistencies and contradictions in your stance about some of this are stark. You rely on your "subjective" experience only, but are also quick to point out why someone else's feelings about an artist or performance may not be valid (example: "stereotypical"). So, in other words, only YOUR subjective opinion is valid, right? I see. I think we can do better than that.
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The issue of why there aren't more posters on this thread has come up recently and previously. It is not that there aren't more jazz fans out there; it is bs like this. *****
I keep hearing this from you. Over and over. I disappeared a while back, so all the people that I was keeping from posting, could feel free to post. I didn't notice a deluge.
If you notice, I thought it may have been my fault, if in fact this was an issue at all. I noticed that you have never even considered that YOU might be the problem. Hmmmm. I am sure the mental health folks have a name for this condition.
I think that we have the perfect number of posters. That number is however many WANT TO POST. There are many threads on this forum, and I only post on this one. I have not noticed anyone worried about getting me to post on their threads. People post where they desire to post. This is not a music forum. It's for gear heads.
FYI, it's not the BS, as you call it. i.e. (anytime someone has the audacity to disagree with you). I think it's more likely, the type of music and conversation style discussion that we do here.
In any event, I do not care one way or the other. People are always free to start their own thread. I promise I will not spoil their party by showing up. I will stay here, as long as the OP stays.
Well, THAT was a grounded and insightful response. As usual, Rok, you see what you want to see. I welcome disagreement supported by reason, logic; and, yes, a semblance of good taste. The "bs" is not the product of disagreement, it is the product of your abrasive, disrespectful style. No deluge, but I think the math makes the point. Moreover you conveniently overlook all those who haven't stuck around because you pissed them off. Just trying to help you, man 😊
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