Jazz for aficionados

Still trying http://youtu.be/PwNRVFGrCwM

Although they "never" succeed, I applaud their valiant efforts. Nina Simone is the subject of a movie (I happen to be istening to her at the moment) that I'm looking forward to seeing.

You would be astounded at how interesting a jazz musician's life is; they can live three lives in the time it takes us to live one; however, for the sake of heirs, so much has to be left out, and people with that much creativity can never be encapsulated into a movie.

Here is a movie you posted links of:


  http://www.ranker.com/list/15-jamming-jazz-movies/konnoisseur411


Frogman, I agree with you on that Miles movie, and so would the people who knew Miles.

Rok, post music you feel that relates to a movie.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, click on "Cabin in The Sky" - "Jim Henry's Paradise"

Rok, I was with Nina from the beginning of her musical career, and I watched her grow as a person when she became deeply involved in civil rights. Her "real" life was certainly worth a movie, but from what I can gather, this current movie is not worth my time; it tells more about the people who made the movie, and the current psyche than it does about Ms. Nina Simone.



Enjoy the music.

 

The only Jazz soundtrack I own.  I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQHNH2Ti9WM

Cheers

Nina Simone:

Sang a few 'protest' songs.   Does not rise to to the level of being "deeply involved in the civil rights movement".   Most of the people who fought that fight are largely unknown.  Lot of them from Mississippi.

Her movie is a joke.  Not her, just the movie.   Zoe Saldana got the role playing Nina.  Her selection is being criticized because she does not look like Nina.  IOW, she is too attractive.   Lord help us.

Cheers

Jim Henry:

I used to be able to dance like that.   Seems as if your tailor outfitted the entire cast.   Foxes Galore!!

That was back when Jazz was Jazz.

Cheers

This is one of my favorite soundtracks, "Cat People"; it's a movie about people who turn into big black panthers who will eat you up.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCIym5Ovu3Y&list=PL3YPwDXT3Pk34CpOnvEJcsQEfccEyt4on


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, since you seem to have a good idea of what a "jazz track" and movie should consist of; what's your favorite?


Enjoy the music.

Rok, the people who fought the civil rights movement are unknown, old and tired, plus only younger people benefited who couldn't care less about those who didn't benefit.

Presently everyone is for number one, and the only movement is straight down for the lower middle class. For Gods sake don't click on poverty.

The good news is, being an audiophile is great when you have a solid system, and a large collection of good music. I think that accounts for just about everybody on the "Gon".


Enjoy the music.

As the decider in chief of this thread, it is my job to discern what is and "what is not". In regard to Jamie Foxx as Ray Charles, there were times when I thought he was Ray Charles, and that's what acting is all about; to make the audience believe they are looking at a real event taking place in front of them as opposed to a movie. I can't think of any movie where this was done better than Jamie Foxx as Ray Charles.

If anyone can show a better example of an actor portraying a living person, I would like for them to post it.



Enjoy the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIXg9KUiy00

A reference for the uninitiated

Oldman was great in this hard to watch train wreck!

Not sure how Sex Pistols fits into a Jazz discussion???

*****( As the decider in chief of this thread*****

Chief Decider, OP, Imperial Grand Poobah of Jazz, would-be Jazz Connoisseur, You should have a full plate.

Jamie Foxx receiving an Oscar for 'RAY' was an outrage.   Great actors are those that through their portrayals, create a compelling persona and story.   Even if the story is total BS.

Examples:

De Niro -- Raging Bull
Brando -- The Godfather
George C. Scott -- Patton
Peter O'Toole -- Laurence of Arabia

There are many others.

Cheers

When in doubt, let Frogman figure it out.

Actors don't create stories, it's not their job; that's for writers. Actors create believable characters.

I never saw General Patton; consequently I have to take your word for whether or not George C. Scott did such a marvelous job as Patton; however, I have seen Ray Charles more times than I can count, and there were times when I thought I was looking at "Ray Charles"; Jamie Foxx had all those quirky mannerisms of Ray down pat.

Have you ever seen "The Godfather"? The answer is no, because he was a fictional character, but all of us have seen Ray Charles; therefore we all know how he looked, as well as his mannerisms. I rest my case.


Enjoy the music.

Has everyone seen "Round Midnight? I don't see any comments, and do you have the soundtrack?

I saw a good movie about "Expats" (Paris Blues) that didn't have the high quality of jazz as "Round Midnight". I was just wondering, how do you grade a jazz movie; meaning, the quality of the movie, or the quality of the jazz; your thoughts.


Enjoy the music.

Jafant, Gary Oldman and Chloe Webb, were in a movie called "Sid and Nancy", portraying Sid Vicious and Nancy Spurgon. They were excellent in these roles. Simple as that. I played a scene from the movie, and then the actual video the movie was referencing. 


FYI, I also liked Rok's Raging Bull answer.

Many actors actually do create stories for their characters - they are called "back stories."  They give the character a history that helps them present the character as more real and believable.  "Method" actors in particular utilize this technique.  These actors very much consider creating these stories as part of their job, and a more important part of it than what the writers have given them in many cases, depending on the play/film.   Also, many scenes in films/plays nowadays are improvised.  This can also be considered creation of story.   Oh, or did you not want to be taught about acting, either?  :)

***** but all of us have seen Ray Charles; therefore we all know how he looked, as well as his mannerisms. I rest my case. *****

You are making my case, which I now rest.

Jamie Foxx should be so good as this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR1_hGkIU2c

Cheers

Patton:   I have seen him speak on film from the war.   Polar opposites from George C. Scott.   Not handsome, high pitched squeaky voice, weak chin.

If they had picked an actor with the looks, voice and mannerisms of the real Patton, the movie would have been a flop, if it was ever made at all.

The point is, these guys are so great they create these characters that are larger than life.   And they are believable.

BTW, when talking about The Godfather movies with a friend, he mentioned that De Niro was awesome.  I replied, De Niro was not in The Godfather.   When he pointed out the scenes with De Niro, I was stunned.  (when he gutted the Don in Italy, avenging his Mother)  That's acting.   he does that a lot.

Cheers

Learsfool, unless the actor is "Dexter Gordon", I'm not interested, but apparently it's time for a change of subject.

I don't think we've heard "Badal Roy".


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjEQda_4QWM



Enjoy the music.

Badal Roy:

Talk about noise!!!    Quite possibly, the most useless, irritating clip, ever posted.  

Cheers

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I got 20/20 vision.


Enjoy the music.

How's this for a change of pace?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvUQcnfwUUM


Enjoy the music.

Apropos of absolutely nothin'...
but might be of interest to some...
A documentary about Eric Dolphy, "Last Date" (1991)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueHqxKEbQd4

Ghosthouse, before I even look at this video, I want to say "Thank you very much"; that's because I know so little about Eric Dolphy, and personally I haven't given his music the consideration it deserves. A jazz musician is his music, consequently, I haven't given Mr. Dolphy the attention he deserves.

He was loved and admired by musicians I love and admire; therefore if I don't feel the same way about Erik Dolphy, maybe it's because I haven't given him enough attention.

I will get back to you with a full review.


Enkoy the music.

Ghosthouse, it's after midnight, and I just discovered a new way to spell Enjoy.

Ghosthouse, I was sympathetic with Dolphy until just before the end. He was not a drug addict, but he was acting somewhat like a junky, and that's what the medical people thought.

No junky would ever go on stage in that horrible condition; why did he go on stage? He went into a diabetic coma because Doctors thought he was a junky, and didn't treat him as a diabetic. Why didn't everyone know that he was a diabetic? That was Eric's fault. Did he know he was diabetic?

If a genius was diabetic, he could quite possibly seem a little "cooky" if his blood sugar got too low. Erik's death was Erik's fault; he didn't die because he had diabetes, he died because he was not living like someone who had diabetes, and not only that, but the people close to him didn't seem to know that he was diabetic.

I can not think about his music, after discovering how unnecessary his death was.



Enjoy the music.

Santana.

Orpheus - glad you took a look at the documentary.   I was in the same boat.  Knew the Eric Dolphy name, knew he was highly regarded, but little else.  By the way, I haven't made it through the entirety yet.  Watched about 2/3rds last night.  Will finish it this evening.  I hear what you are saying about ED's death though it comes across a little a harsh to me.  Not sure what the state of "health awareness" was back then.  Maybe some amount of ignorance contributed.  Personally, the circumstances around a musician's death don't affect how I, personally, view their music.  There is a bitter irony that ED (who idolized Charlie Parker) was suspected of being "a junkie" when in fact he was reportedly a straight arrow, clean and sober.  Regardless, the documentary is great for the insight it provides about the jazz profession a few decades back...not to mention little snapshots of personal relationships; e.g., Charles Mingus' reaction after ED quit his band.  

BTW - "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I got 20/20 vision." is fantastic.  That yours? or are you quoting someone??  Regardless, a great one-liner.  

Now that I think about it Ghosthouse, it was extremely harsh. I didn't take "that time" into consideration, which means public awareness of diabetes. While my statement was accurate, it didn't take mitigating factors into consideration.

Personally, I'm going to erase that and focus on his music. That document certainly increased my knowledge of the man and his music, and I thank you for this.

I would appreciate it if we both got into his music, and compared notes and opinions in a specified time that I'll leave to you.

BTW - Thunk it up all by myself.



Enjoy the music.

Eric was different in every way. As I stated before, a jazz musician and his music are one; the fact that almost everybody else plays someone else's music, while a jazz musicians music is coming from his soul helps to confirm this.

That statement is based on 3 jazz musicians that I was close to as people, and liked their music. While that's a small number, it's a big number relative to most people. When I listen to Eric's music, I can see Eric in an abstract sort of way.

None of us can comprehend how important a jazz musicians music is to him; everything else is secondary. Another thing about jazz musicians that's incomprehensible to us is their love for another jazz musician who is in harmony with their music. An example is Roach and Brown; Max was out of whack for a long time after Clifford's death.

Very few musicians can be in harmony with Mingus's music, but Eric was, and that's why Mingus was so upset about Eric leaving him.


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cimpUKVAbY8


I think Eric sounds best as sideman; that's because a concentrated dose of Eric is more than I can handle.




Enjoy the music.

"None of us can comprehend how important a jazz musicians music is to him; everything else is secondary."

"I think Eric sounds best as sideman; that’s because a concentrated dose of Eric is more than I can handle."

To the above: WELL SAID.

Dolphy’s dedication to his craft came out so clearly in that documentary. I admire his almost "monastic" commitment.

Spent some time today with his "Out to Lunch"; also a release called, "In the Blues". Dolphy front and center on both and I confess not getting through all of them. BUT, I feel like there is something "there" for me and if I listen long enough I just might "get it". So do a little at a time. Go back repeatedly. Hopefully something starts to stick and things begin to unfold. I love the tone of his bass clarinet. What a great, under-utilized instrument for jazz. Prefer it over sax (baritone sax a distant second) but for me as a complete novice, his flute playing is more accessible.

Somehow Dolphy reminds me of Stravinsky/Schoenberg/Webern...very angular compositions; "post-romantic" if be-bop can be considered "romantic".  I’ll defer to the truly educated "musicologists", of course.

You are welcome on the documentary. Very pleased someone else benefited from it.

Speaking of the "bass Clarinet", bought this album "Kalenia" by Oran Etkin that has two of my favorite instruments; bass clarinet, and balaphon, a West African instrument.

This CD is so unusual that it takes more than one listen to get into it, but it's well worth it. Here's Oran Etkin;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rocYxIkcA4s


Enjoy the music.

Who led who outside?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrf98j658bo

I've noticed that Eric sounds best as a sideman to me. There are a number of musicians I liked very much on other records led by someone else. On baritone sax there is Pepper Adams with Donald Byrd, and also with Mingus, who was absolutely fantastic; but I don't have the same opinion of albums where he led.

That is also true for Eric; I liked him with Mingus, and he also has blown some brilliant solos with other musicians such as Oliver Nelson on "Blues And The Abstract Truth". He blows alto, and flute on "Stolen Moments", one of the most beautiful tunes in all of jazz.  Eric's flute solo puts this tune over the top.


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbaGDDbpcQ4


It was so unfortunate and tragic, what happened in Germany, just when all was going to come together for Eric Dolphy.



Enjoy the music.

Very glad to see discussion of Eric Dolphy; a player who definitely pushed the envelope of modern jazz into post-hardbop avant-garde  and I'm not sure there would have been as much interest here three years ago.  To my ears, he was one of the few avant-garde players who, at no point in his improvisations, am I tempted to say "this is bs".  He had his own musical vocabulary and was a much more accomplished instrumentalist than many avant-garde players.  He was particularly accomplished on alto saxophone and bass clarinet; somewhat less so on flute with a less developed tone than on the other two instruments, but not to the point that he couldn't be fully expressive.  I really like Ghosthouse's description of his style:

****Dolphy reminds me of Stravinsky/Schoenberg/Webern...very angular compositions; "post-romantic" if be-bop can be considered "romantic".****

I feel differently about his playing as a sideman vs leader.  To my ears his work as a sideman is excellent and very distinctive, but it is his work a leader that fully expresses his voice.  It isn't surprising that for anyone who can take Dolphy on a limited basis his work as a sideman would be preferred; it is generally a little more "inside", and hence more accessible, than his work as leader in which he generally takes it farther into the avant-garde.  "Out To Lunch" is a brilliant record and probably his best record.  The earlier and appropriately titled "Out There" is another great one:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MOhKYOQK-d

His flute work on this is great:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s4GdwJODLbI

Orpheus - YES...Eric Dolphy's death was certainly "unfortunate and tragic".  Finished the documentary today.  I had no idea the circumstances around it.  We can add "unnecessary" to the words describing it. While Eric certainly bore some personal responsibility for how he cared for himself, the greater share of blame has to be on the doctor(s) who, because of stereotypes about black jazz musicians, misinterpreted and mistreated the diabetic coma that he had fallen into.    

Appreciated Frogman's comments.  Will have to see if I can find Out There.  Thanks too to acman for the You Tube clips.  

Ghosthouse, as much as I would like to, I can't blame that doctor; this is in Germany, where that doctor had to go on what he believed, based on what he had heard and read. There just was not enough time to correct his misconceptions.

Today, and I mean right up until this present moment; "Stereotypifiers" ( a new word) who have scads of information at their fingertips, do the same thing. No matter how you add, subtract, multiply, and even do long division, the answer will always be the same, in regard to long held beliefs. As a result of those people, we are all going to hell in a hand basket together.



Enjoy the music.

Ghosthouse, Erick Dolphy was self treating himself for "low blood sugar" when he asked for the bottles of Coke, and ice cream. This means he had experienced some kind of symptoms before that indicated low blood sugar, and had treated himself by raising his blood sugar with Coke and ice cream.

I believe he overdid it this time, and raised his blood sugar too much; enough to go into a coma.

Jazz musicians at that time, had a thing about doctors and hospitals; I don't know how much of it was justified. "Nica koenigswarter" , the "Be-Bop Baroness", had to convince, and then take Coleman Hawkins to the hospital when he was deathly ill; that probably saved his life, because otherwise, he wasn't going.



Enjoy the music.

O - agree with you that Eric was treating himself and incorrectly. He needed insulin to help his body utilize what sugar was already present. I’ll have to disagree with you on blaming the medicos. "Blame" (not pejoratively but objectively) since, because of a stereotype, they didn’t investigate more thoroughly what was really going on with their patient. BTW - in my opinion, stereotypes exist for reason, they aren’t made out of "whole cloth". What’s bad about them is when they are applied inappropriately...when they prevent us truly seeing the individual OR are used to drive public policy.

Ghosthouse, I applaud the way you are consistently refuting my answers with sound logic, that indicates you are seeking the truth, and want no part of any preconceived notion.

You are absolutely correct, that doctor was an impostor; doctors are men of science, he had all sorts of test instruments, and equipment, at his disposal; regardless what he surmised, he should have tested to discover the "truth".

Politicians almost always use preconceived notions to get votes, they are as afraid of the truth, as they would be of a saw scaled viper; one of the most venomous snakes in the world.

"How did you know he was lying"? His lips were moving, and he's a politician.



Enjoy the music.

We all KNOW it was a CONSPIRACY, because the RESEARCH shows that Dolphy was the first human to die of diabetic coma.   That proves it.   Those damn Germans.  They have a long history of trying to do-in black jazz players.

You guys keep up the good work exposing these evil doers.

Cheers

The bass clarinet is a very under utilized instrument in my opinion.

        
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSZtX3WHF_E



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfQfv99BCHE



Erik Dolphy excels on this instrument.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cimpUKVAbY8



Enjoy the music.

Orpheus - Thanks for your gracious response but, honestly, from my perspective, we are simply sharing a discussion. "Writing clarifies thought." not sure who said that, but it’s definitely true for me.

Rok - I fully expect your comment about Germans and black jazz players was made facetiously. Be that as it may, it does offer opportunity to note that in the Last Exit documentary a good bit of time is spent on recollections by several German musicians Dolphy had been playing with. They certainly respected him and in a couple of cases, at least, there was great affection for him.

What is it about Europe that has made it so welcoming for American jazz musicians? Seems to me (from Eastwood’s movie "Bird") I recall Charlie Parker had been an expat in France.

Interesting discussion at the link here:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/12/movies/the-blues-of-expatriate-paris-recalling-america-s-jazz-exiles.html?pagewanted=all

Rok, what's your take on the link that Ghosthouse provided; do you think things have gotten better for jazz musicians, and if so, how?

I'll wait for your response.


Enjoy the music.

***** What is it about Europe that has made it so welcoming for American jazz musicians? *****

I would say France rather than Europe.  The French never miss an opportunity to show the 'superiority' of their country, Language and culture.  It still goes on today.   They see them selves as a counter-weight to American influence and power in the world.

The expats:   These were people like Monk, Bird, Richard Wright, James Balwin, Josephine Baker and other great musicians, writers and entertainers.   What's not to like.  Of course they were welcomed by the French elite, located mainly in Paris.

They did not welcome black people, they welcomed great artists who happened to be black, something new and different,  and very few in number.

What the expats should have known was that if the entire US black population had moved to France, the reception would have been very different, as it is today, after North Africa showed up in France.

BTW, the black female Jazz trumpet player,  Valaida Snow happened to be touring in Denmark when Hitler declared war on the USA.   She was promptly arrested and thrown in prison as an enemy alien.   Just saying.   She was later part of a prisoner exchange.

Cheers