Jazz for aficionados

Frogman, if you never responded to anything I posted, it would certainly make my day; but you can't do that, can you?

As for "The Newbee", he is your replacement for "Learsfool"; who would say the Sun rises in the West, if I said it rose in the East. The only difference between me and you, is the fact I'm not making any attempt to put on some fake veneer of civility, I'm merely continuing what you started, and meeting it "head on".

It's quite apparent that none of your posts are sincere appraisals of the music, or anything else, but political in nature; meaning every single post you make, depends on who it is in response to, and it's for sure it will always be negative to anything I post, while it will be positive to someone you are currently in favor of.

Everyone can go through your posts and see the lack of consistency. For example; Newbee only posts to criticize me, he has only posted music one time, and you comment on Newbee's excellent post.

Frogman, your record speaks for itself.



Enjoy the music.

The OP is firing for effect!!

Cheers

Since Jazz seems to be no longer a requirement, let's all chill to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwEsrdClimk&list=PL9t9N1owgSRLAErhETYuuAwWSeCJ85N4o

Cheers

Well......all right...one more 😉

****Frogman, your record speaks for itself.****

Thanks; I believe it does.

Now, and, of course, this is coming from MY world view, sensibilities, and standards, but I feel there is always room, in spite of everything, for one last ditch appeal to the possibility that somewhere in there is just a tiny bit of that little voice that says to reasonable people: "don't you realize how idiotic this posturing is?, If you're going to insist on going down this road, where's the beef?".  

Music, anyone?

****Music, anyone?****

Thanks.

Charles Lloyd.

Jazz, your post was right on time; although we have covered Cuban music in the past from top to bottom, we're back into it again.

That clip presented the African, Spanish soul of Cuban music, and I liked it a lot.


Enjoy the music.

Acman, I think I have a few of her CD's, the one that comes to mind off hand is "Don't Smoke In Bed". I see her style has changed to more a "up beat" presentation, that's good.


Enjoy the music.

When you say 'like' or 'dislike' it is a personal statement whether you choose to amplify it or not. When you say 'good' or 'bad' it suggests that this categorization has more of a universal application to the music absent your personal enjoyment or lack thereof, and most folks would expect you to amplify on how you reached that conclusion.

"Newbee", I'm reading your statement, but I don't quite know what it is you're trying to say; could you give an example of what it was that I said, that you think I should amplify. BTW, Frogman thought that was a fantastic post; maybe if you "amplified", I would think so as well.



Enjoy the music.

Orpheus, I believe my post was intelligible, if not as artful as it might have been had I really cared. If you cannot understand it without amplification I would suggest you re-read my post of 2/28/16. 

BTW, FWIW, you have not  accurately reported how many posts I have been involved in which music was a topic and in which I made recommendations. I suspect this really makes no difference to you. You were only trying to make a point. 

As I said earlier, IMHO this thread is, and always has been more about you than about jazz (or music). Too bad because I suspect you have much of value you could contribute if I were willing to wade through extraneous which unfortunately only serves to obscure what you do have to share.

FYI, I do find the participation of others both informative and of value.  I thank them for that.

  

 

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch.

For the "Thread Troll" is among us, and his slithy tongue does gyre and gimble in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe.


A troll is a person who sows discord on a thread by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into arguments, and disarray.

The "Troll" who wanders on this thread is easily identifiable. I will choose to regard him as "The Invisible man" henceforth.



Enjoy the music.

Rok, I got news for you, Space Flight Sam Lazar done went down to $43. and change; still too rich for my blood.

As a Miriam Makeba "Connoisseur" (I still can not spell that word) I have been enjoying this new CD so much that I'm just getting around to installing it on the play list. Replacing an old scratchy record with a brand new CD is so rewarding; especially when it's a long sought after record.

Thanks to you, I have expanded my collection significantly, and I hope you have done likewise. If you run across something I might not have, please post it.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, I want you to check this and check it thoroughly; me, Alex, Jazz, and even Frogman posted music that's only different in degrees, and the music I posted is "bland and tasteless". Get back to me on that.


Enjoy the music.

***** Rok, I want you to check this and check it thoroughly; me, Alex, Jazz, and even Frogman posted music that's only different in degrees, and the music I posted is "bland and tasteless". Get back to me on that.*****

I discovered years ago that there are people with 'special' status on this forum.  They are considered the 'final authority 'in their area of 'expertise', and  any dissent from their pronouncements will not be tolerated.

When these gurus are challenged, their minions get nervous. When the established order is threatened, they will attack anyone in order to support, defend and maintain the status quo.

You have noticed that we, will NEVER be supported in ANY disagreement with The Frogman.  In some cases, The Frogman himself will be more likely to reach an agreement or understanding of our point of view, than will the minions.  They will be more upset with us, than will be The Frogman.   That's just the way it is.

The humorous thing is that, when The Frogman speaks of music in a technical sense, saying things that only a pro would know and understand, all these minions weigh-in as if they always knew and understood what he is saying, and are absolutely astonished that you and I  do not.   hahahaahahaha

My course of action:   Only talk to The Frogman and the other regular contributors.  You can easily tell who the Jazz lovers are.  Ignore the drive-by posters.

The Frogman is, and has been, a vital asset to this thread.  We are lucky to have him.  Feel free to discuss Jazz with him, and ignore the mean spirited interlopers.

Both of you need the cut back on the personal stuff.  Save all the criticism for the music, not the person.

Cheers

Rok, that was a marvelous post except for the last sentence; have you ever seen a pit bull in a dog fight, if there are two of them, one of them will have to get buried. Fortunately we are a long ways apart, so that can't happen, but it will stop when it stops.


Enjoy the music.

Jazz, when I compared all of our musical posts, it amazed me how competitive your's was without one professional musician, or expensive instrument.


Enjoy the music.

Pattern:

Hmmmm..........lull in the vitriol........this same sh&t has happened so many times before.........respite.........will it last?..........avoid dialogue with O-10; too loaded and difficult.......hey! other posters show up.......great posts.....good dialogue, good, respectful discussions.......disagreement........different preferences.......no problem........hey! why aren't we arguing?..........good music posts..........more good music posts.............why aren't we arguing?.............O-10 comes back........good!..........informs that he is "forgiving us"........uh, oh!..........won't last..........O-10 goes on to express his dislike ("neutral") of my music posts..........no problem..........hey! maybe good dialogue........fewer posts.............less participation..............O-10 goes on to expound on the "bigger picture".........."we are all wired differently"; different tastes..........how true.......I agree..........I point out that our respective recent posts are a good example of what he had just said ("wired differently"). and (uh, oh!) point out why I feel that way.........ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.........WTF!...........much indignation.........posters go away...........O-10 runs to Rok for support..........how pathetic..........isn't it obvious that something so personal (soliciting support) should not be done in a public forum?............most importantly, why does anyone need "support" for his personal likes in music?.............why should the fact that I don't like it be such a threat?............other posters are vilified for not running to O-10's and Rok's defense............why doesn't it occur to them that maybe, just maybe, it is simple agreement and not some conspiratorial thing?............how insulting to the other posters to suggest that they don't have minds of their own, or would be swayed by "The Frogman"; who, btw, you mention by name(?) SIX times in one of your most recent posts.........SIX TIMES!...........doesn't that say something to you?...........think!...........how "magnanimous" of you to suggest that "we both" need to "cut back on the personal stuff".............valiant effort!...........why is he overlooking the insulting and cynical attitude that he, himself, often exhibits when posting?.............what gives?...............doesn't it occur to them that there is no vitriol when they decide to "go away" in indignation?............what a shame that it has to get to that point..........this thread could be so much more..........you two are pathetic............a music lover respects the music; not just his personal "love" of the music in an effort to build himself up............not only do I not think that Newbee is a troll, he is correct............opportunity wasted...........refusal to learn and expand horizons and learn to appreciate on a deeper level the music that they try so hard to claim they love........what a shame...........

Some random thoughts based on verifiably accurate occurrences.  Make of them what you will.  

A gentle suggestion: get your heads out of your a$$e$ and appreciate just what an asset this thread and ALL its posters could be.  

Your (YOUR) resident "vital asset".  

***** Some random thoughts*****

Incoherent, would be more to the point.  And your ramblings do not rise to the level of 'thoughts'.

Cheers

***** "The Frogman"; who, btw, you mention by name(?) SIX times in one of your most recent posts.........SIX TIMES!...........doesn't that say something to you?...........think!...*****

It says, YOU and YOUR minions were the subject of the post.



Vital Asset ????

As you said, I'm a very Magnanimous guy.

Cheers

Incoherent? Not at all, Rok; and perfectly clear. But, it occurs to me that the reason that you don’t understand the message in my "ramblings" is the very reason that you are locked in such a narrow scope of music appreciation; but, that’s ultimately for you to figure out. Now, you can go ahead and have the last word, I am tired of the bs and the hypocrisy in how you and O-10 allow yourselves to be aggressive and provocative with your comments and interaction, but it’s high crime when others do anything remotely like it. But, of course, you can direct your vitriol at O-10 when you feel like it and that’s ok; he needs you and apparently you need him. I am going make a sad prediction: this thread will one day be shut down because the vitriol (O-10’s pit bull comment) will get to the point where the censors will deem it necessary. That would truly be sad, so I encourage all concerned (I include myself) to step back and take a closer and more honest look at what really goes on here. Great day to all.

Last word?

Heard this on WBGO Newark a few minutes ago.  Beautiful!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a0-6BA5iXgA

WBGO is God's radio-gift to jazz (and Latin, RB, Blues) lovers.  Check it out on line.

Rok, while people are producing good music today, more and more, I tend to prefer the past; especially when I can go on you tube and see more and more of it available.

Many times I mentioned the Chicago "South Side" of my youth where I heard so much of this fantastic music, and some of the people making the music even lived and performed within blocks of where I lived.

There is no way anyone will believe what the South Side of Chicago was like when I lived there, compared to what's there now. What anyone else believes is moot, as long as I can get into this music and go back to that time.

My cousin had a lot of "Wardell Gray", and Sonny Stitt, that I've been trying to find forever, now I just saw it on "you tube", maybe it's on CD; I'll have to check that.  I'll never forget, Wardell was on a red LP that you could see through, that made it easy to find.

Music is my time machine, I can get in it and go back to better days.



Enjoy the music.

***** There is no way anyone will believe what the South Side of Chicago was like when I lived there*****

Actually, I can readily believe it.  There were many places like that back in the day.  "Progress" and it's resulting consequences wiped them out.

Cheers

Rok, things are a changing; those out of print LP's that you had to pay an arm and two legs for, if you could find them, are now on CD's for $13. bucks.

Just go shopping on "you tube", and get back to me on Wardell, and Stitt to see if you like anything. The last time we checked there was a problem with recording quality; they can clean that up.

Wardell Gray had something special on slow ballads, while his "hooting and tooting" in the style of Bird was the most popular.


Enjoy the music.

The first time I heard "Bernie's Tune" was in the Summer of 56 by Wardell Gray; therefore it is "The" Bernie's Tune.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2IBIc_9DM


Note how "authentic" this music is. And "Cherokee" by Sonny Stitt, the alternative to "Bird."



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2W5F_071Ig



Enjoy the music.

Beautiful Sonny Stitt! Love Sonny Stitt. For me, perhaps the most fascinating and interestig mystery story in all of jazz history and lore:

Much (actually, not enough) has been discussed, postulated on and argued here about the issue of the evolution of jazz and, at the micro level, the influence of prominent players on younger players and on the direction of the music. It was Sonny Stitt’s contention that up until the time that he was "discovered", recorded and finally met Parker, that he had never previously heard Charlie Parker play; live or recorded. Yet, their styles were remarkably similar and given the firestorm that Bird was causing on the scene (not to mention that everyone was incorporating Bird’s style into their own; well, almost everyone) it would be assumed that the reason that Stitt sounded so much like Bird was, in fact, Bird’s influence on his playing style. There really is no verifiable reason to doubt Stitt’s claim, eventhough the matter has been looked into. This begs the question: how did this happen since the lineage of influence is easily traced in the majority of important players’ playing styles? To my way of thinking this points to the "inevitability" of the evolution of the music and how it’s like a force set in motion that can’t be stopped; it will always keep evolving whether we like it or not. Just some hopefully remotely interesting food for thought.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-vK_29ka1lc

Sonny Stitt:

If Bird's influence was as pervasive as everyone says it was, it would have been impossible not to be influenced by him,  even if it came through third parties.

I have this CD.  I always thought Oscar should have added drums and a couple of horns to his group.  Esp since he seemed to go out of his way to play with every horn player in Jazz.

***** To my way of thinking this points to the "inevitability" of the evolution of the music and how it’s like a force set in motion that can’t be stopped; it will always keep evolving whether we like it or not.*****

The questions become, is the evolution an improvement?  Is it artistically superior to what it is supposed to have evolved from?  Is it a small incremental step in evolution, or a drastic mutation into something entirely different?  Is it an logical and easily recognizable upward continuation or a lateral evolutionary branch that resulted in a dead end?

Evolution is a response to enviroment.   Guys trying to be different on purpose does not count as natrual 

The unwashed need answers.

Let's all remember, the Ford Edsel evolved from something.

Nice Jazz post.

Cheers

natural

****The unwashed need answers.****

Why? Imo, some WANT answers; two different things.

****The questions become, is the evolution an improvement?****

Why does it have to be, or is expected to be, an "improvement"? Is Joe Henderson playing a ballad an "improvement" over Lester Young playing a ballad? Different and each a reflection of its time (****Evolution is a response to environment****). As always, whether any one of us likes one particular style better than another is a reflection of ourselves and our sensibilities relative to the world around us. The only thing that is a "dead end" is the need to put those qualifications on art. Now, if you really want to use criteria that gives a measure of excellence (or not) with something resembling an objective standard you have to look at the level of CRAFT and criteria used to judge that; and, no, those criteria are not purely subjective. You know.....that phrase that rhymes with "putz and dolts". It is, of course, not only about the craft; but, that road inevitably leads back to us (dead end).

****Guys trying to be different on purpose does not count as natrual****

Do you think, for one minute, that Bird and Trane didn’t "cultivate" their individuality? Every player sets out to find his/her voice and does so through a combination of inspiration and the hard work of trying new things; everything from developing harmonic concepts in their playing to trying fifty different saxophone mouthpieces to get the tone that they hear for themselves in their head. Bottom line:

You like the more traditional music (no problem) and seem to have a need to deem it "superior" to more contemporary music for some reason that is your very own. I don’t have that need and find it very limiting. I appreciate the excellence in the new and the old as long as certain other criteria are met. However, you don’t love or appreciate the traditional any more than I do. Excluding the non-traditional does not enhance our appreciation of the traditional; in fact, it limits it. You like the traditional and dislike the modern (I am generalizing, of course). There’s no problem with that. So, either you are correct and there are no worthy modern trends in music; or, I’m an idiot for thinking that there are.  Importantly, it should be pointed out, again, which side of the coin does the bashing of the other.  

Do you think, for one minute, that Bird and Trane didn’t "cultivate" their individuality? Every player sets out to find his/her voice and does so through a combination of inspiration and the hard work of trying new things; everything from developing harmonic concepts in their playing to trying fifty different saxophone mouthpieces to get the tone that they hear for themselves in their head. Bottom line:

Although the above is true, it contains in it, the inherent belief that any musician who did these things could be as good as "Trane" Miles or "Bird"; that's not true. Regardless what you do, if you were not given at birth, whatever differentiates those musicians from the rest of us, you can only be a good sideman, or mediocre leader.

"You can be what you want to be"; that's true only to a certain extent; we are talking about famous jazz musicians who were the best; you can only be the best if you were given something at birth, that for lack of a better word is called "talent".

Within them, the very best jazz musicians know that they have something that's so exclusive, that very few will be able to duplicate what they can do, and are doing; they know this even if they are at the bottom financially. While that doesn't suffice for "In God We Trust" in the pockets, it's what keeps those musicians who are not financially successful, going on another day. Read what Miles had to say about "Bird" to verify that.

In regard to "individuality"; that is something musicians "discover" while in the process of becoming a good musician.


Enjoy the music.

****Although the above is true, it contains in it, the inherent belief that any musician who did these things could be as good as "Trane" Miles or "Bird";****

Not so, and I'm not suggesting any such thing.  That's quite a leap and don't see how or why you made that leap based on what I wrote.  Otherwise, I'm pretty much in agreement.

While I don't have Rok's same appreciation for the "traditional" such as "Nawlins" jazz, I share his appreciation for the "classic" jazz musicians. And that came about since this thread, which means before this thread, I was in constant search for something "new".

"You Tube" has exposed how much "classic" jazz that's not in my collection, and technology has been able to improve the recording of those records. Now I have a choice of going forward, or remaining stationary in regard to time. (meaning records).

"You Tube" has also exposed the fact that some of those musicians were so advanced, that their most advanced music didn't sell, and went out of print. (meaning they quit making those records, but still have the tapes) With such a wide range of choices, and the ability to go back in time, I can review this wealth of "new old" music and decide how to use my limited resources in both time and money. Presently, the "new old" music is keeping me in my listening room a whole lot more.


Enjoy the music.

Looked at some reviews today, just to make sure I wasn't the only one who liked the Danny Green Trio's record. Doesn't necessarily mean I am right, but at least not the only one, except Frogman. 

Frogman sure has a lot of Minion's! I bet it is a conspiracy.

http://originarts.com/oa2/recordings/recording.php?TitleID=22128

not as glowing , but not bad

http://www.downbeat.com/default.asp?sect=news&subsect=news_detail&nid=3326

Apparently Acman, your listening, and hearing is like Miles playing, "very advanced".

I listened to them  again, and found the sound agreeable, just not enough to put money on, but I'm still listening.

Now that I'm looking and listening, I can see how enjoyable watching them on a live set could be. I went back to my first evaluation to see how, or if my thoughts on them had changed, and it has; for the better.

Enjoy the music.

I am glad they are no longer " Bland, dirivative, and ( almost) totally pointless music". 

The Frogman:

The players you mentioned in your post was like comparing Apples to Apples, and Oranges to Oranges.   Let's get those guys in the blue jeans and tank tops in here.   That's what we are talking about.   But of course, you know that.

A good place to start would be 'fusion' or 'Free' or 'modern' or 'avant-garde'.   Those are the labels the noise makers usually hide behind.

Henderson and young both played Jazz.   So did Bird and Coltrane.  Your post was true, but didn't make the comparisons we are talking about.

The unwashed continue their quest for the truth.

Cheers

***** Frogman sure has a lot of Minion's!******

That's the understatement of the year!!

Cheers

O-10:

Great Posts.   Right on point.

Cheers

I get a good feeling when I can see ways musicians can get their best efforts in front of the people without being exploited in the process. Now a musician can make a CD and sell it at a live performance, and get it on "you tube"; all they need is for the people to hear what they can do, and rest will take care of itself.


Enjoy the music.

***** In regard to "individuality"; that is something musicians "discover" while in the process of becoming a good musician.*****

Exactly!!  While in the case of 'fusion', that was a deliberate move, to cash in on the money generated by Rock.  It was  false 'evolution'.

Cheers

If someone who was trying to communicate with me, they could be highly educated, but only spoke French; we would not be able to communicate because I don't speak French.

If someone was trying to communicate with me, but only spoke "music", we would have great difficulty communicating, because I never took music. Although this thread is about music, I never learned how to make music; that's why I initiated posting "links" of the music you are trying to communicate.

No matter how well a person is able to communicate in the language of music, I can't understand that language; consequently, he might as well be speaking French. While a long post in this language would be most impressive to another musician, I don't speak the language.

When describing music, a link, along with a description of how this music affects you is quite sufficient.

This post is for "The Newbee" ; post can be read below.


"When you say 'like' or 'dislike' it is a personal statement whether you choose to amplify it or not. When you say 'good' or 'bad' it suggests that this categorization has more of a universal application to the music absent your personal enjoyment or lack thereof, and most folks would expect you to amplify on how you reached that conclusion".


I can only assume, he meant expand in the colorful language of music, which I can't speak.    If he meant to expand in ordinary English; that's the purpose of the musical link.

Acman is a man of few words, but since this is a thread about music, the link he posts is quite sufficient.

Anyone who is versed in the language of music, can contribute long posts in that language; many aficionados enjoy reading it, and there may be two musicians here who both read, and speak the language. While I enjoy reading such posts, I hope no one expects me to write one; I don't think there is anything more descriptive than a musical link.



Enjoy the music.

I have two sons; one grown and the other almost. The number of times that I say to myself: "sometimes dealing with my kids and their childish and petulant behavior is like dealing with some on this thread" surprises even me. Why? Because in both cases sometimes the behavior is an attempt at getting attention and wanting to appear more grown up than they really are. Deep inside kids know who has the real answer; but, darn it!, they will argue, scream and holler in order to, if only for a moment, feel grown up (knowledgable).

The real question is: why is Rok bringing up the subject of fusion and modern jazz at this point; and bashing it again at that? It’s not like there’s fusion being posted regularly. The fact that some like it and some don’t has been made crystal clear. Answer: comfort zone; the comfort zone of negativity towards what he doesn’t like or understand in an effort to get attention and build up what he does like. The insistence on continuing to call it "noise" when he KNOWS it is liked by individuals who have amply shown to be thoughtful music lovers will be seen as nothing more than provocation and stirring the pot; especially because a simple "I don’t like it", would suffice handily. Or, alternatively and much better yet, in order to make truly meaningful and substantive commentary he could offer something besides "it’s noise", "not a natural evolution", "it was done for the money", etc; comments which are essentially meaningless. Of course, a simple desire to keep the peace, at least for more than a day, would also suffice; but, like the finer points of music, that’s not part of the repertoire.

Rok, I could quote you and say "Wrong again!" I won’t, I’ll be a little less tactless. I believe you’re wrong; it IS all a natural evolution. You said it yourself; "product of the environment". You like music with simple structures, easily recognizable "tunes", and harmonic and rhythmic structures that are easy to take in and don’t challenge our sensibilities, however sophisticated they may be in other ways; all a reflection of the time of their creation, of your sensibilities and comfort zone. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Fast forward a few decades to music that is more complicated reflecting a more complicated time, and in some cases "free". Why does it bother you so much that some don’t agree with your definitions? And, please, don’t go to the "it degrades the art" nonsense. I have no issue with you not liking what I like, but please do yourself a favor and don’t ridicule yourself by calling what some of us like "noise". I believe you do know better than that, but like my thirteen year old........"look at me, look at me!". Why are you still "searching for the truth"?; seems to me that you have found it already......the truth for you. Others on this thread have found their truth; why can’t you leave their truth alone? Now, if you would like to discuss this stuff in the only way the has some objectivity (so that it is applicable to all) (Newbee) let’s see what you got; haven’t seen much yet. Miles didn’t go in the direction he did "for the money"; he had plenty already. The real shame is that in spite of how much you like certain music you still don’t really understand the creative spirit.

All this was way too personal I admit and counter to your suggestion that things be kept less personal. All I can say is "practice what you preach".

On a fourteen hour plane ride (long posts; aren’t you excited?) to uncertain internet connectivity so nobody go reading into a possible delay in response time.

Acman3, nice quote, I need to borrow that myself sometime 😉 Love Eddie Harris, thanks.

Where’s my damn peanuts?!

High Altitude has been known to affect Brain function.

Being a magnanimous guy, I'll leave it at that.

Cheers

Some music from my 'computer's memory' that O-10 spoke about.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVb5wRn4ng&list=PLD672A33F1735CE07


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykj90cvYLCQ

Cheers

Rok, that is as "authentic" as it gets; I can see a little white church with a steeple in the middle of grass, not far from the woods. It might have even been the same church Bill Withers went to with Grandma.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxjNauWYFfc



Enjoy the music.


 

Today's Listen:

Harry Edison and Eddie Davis  -- IN COPENHAGEN: SWEETS AND LOCKJAW

Two albums on one CD.  Vols One and Two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68mguXdk0As

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68mguXdk0As

Two truly greats, that we don't talk about much.

Cheers

Sorry, this was supposed to be the second clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpp_ksF8TMA

Cheers