****Jazzmusician, you got into this conversation about a year late; go back about 12 months, and read all the posts in regard to this and you'll be up to date.****
And here I was, silly me, thinking that I would prove Rok wrong re his comment that he sensed anothern ruckus coming; I was simply going to ignore O-10's rehashing (for God knows how many times) of the practicing issue. I can ignore O-10's ignorant opinions and comments on the subject, but I can't ignore the kind of negativity and dismissiveness that our OP thinks is acceptable in response to a poster's opinion presented in a respectful and informative way. At some point our OP will have to understand just how arrogant and simply nasty he presents himself. So far he doesn't seem to care; but, imo, he needs to be called out for it.
That he is dead wrong about the subject is clear. It is true that this subject goes back quite some time; however, he brought it up again a mere few hours ago and anyone (including me, had I chosen to not ignore him) would have been free to respond to the recent comment without needing to "go back 12 months". Or, is the OP suggesting that expressed opinions (his) are not subject to a reaction and response?
****The ability to improvise comes from inside your head, the ability to act on what’s in your head comes from practice. Every serious musician I have ever known practices all the time.****
jzzmusician is exactly right and I could not have said it better and in a more concise way. Anyone interested in the truth about the subject needs go no further. Well done. |
O10,
Got it. Will do. Sorry if I offended you.
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As an aside, my wife who spent many years as a modern ballet dancer once told me something like this, "You spend hours and hours taking master classes so that when you get on stage you can forget it all and just dance."
I believe it's the same with musicians. And athletes. And actors. And...and...and.
-- Bob
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Am I a Clairvoyant, or what??
But this is an unfair 'ruckus'. On one side of the argument we have all the real musicians that contribute to this thread, and folks like Coltrane, Miles, Ellington, Mingus (esp Mingus), and every other Jazz musician in history. Also every other non-Jazz musician. They all practiced and rehearsed. And how could anyone ever write a Jazz tune without practicing it.
On the other side, we have just O-10 and 'His Friend', who never practiced. Now this could well be true. I believe him. But, It is not significant unless we know who this friend is, so we can listen to his recordings. Hear him play. If he didn't make any recordings, hmmmm, then not practicing becomes even more believable..
Now if this Friend turns out to be Coltrane, or Miles or Green, then his claim becomes significant. Otherwise, as I said before, I didn't practice either, and I sounded like it. And no one has ever paid me one dollar to play.
So if you won't ID this friend, why keep bringing it up and talking about it?
Cheers |
Hi O-10: RE Your post of 5/7 2:08pm about Coltrane not needing to practice. Here we go again.
You have repeatedly had two professional musicians on this thread tell you how incorrect your "theory" is. I seem to remember a couple of other folks who have played an instrument a little contradicting you as well. Now jzzmusician makes another.
Once again - even if one has the greatest talent anyone has ever had, this does NOT mean that one does not have to practice. Your comparison to making chili is absurd. ANYONE can learn to make chili, and could make it again at any time thereafter. It does not require any truly difficult cooking skills (trust me - my wife is related to one of the most famous ever chili cooks in the state that is most famous for it, and I know exactly how to make that award winning but very secret recipe). A much better comparison would be to an athlete such as Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan, who in addition to being one of the most talented basketball players ever were also some of the very hardest working ever. Or lets stay in the arts, if you prefer, with Pablo Picasso - unquestionably the most talented painter ever born, yet also a workaholic.
The idea that practice could take away improvisational inspiration is by far the most laughable comment you make - it reminds me of how proud you are of your lack of knowledge and how understanding you think that makes you.
A playing level, or an improvisational level that high MUST be maintained/developed on a daily basis. This doesn't mean there can't be some periods of time off occasionally. One of my teachers took an entire month off the horn every summer, and I have done that a couple of times myself. But it takes a couple of weeks to get back to where you were if you do that, so you actually have to have at least six weeks off if you are going to even contemplate it. So, if your friend truly wasn't practicing that entire summer (which no one else reading this seriously believes), and only performing every few days, then his playing level would have gone down considerably and very noticeably (shockingly so to his colleagues) over the course of the summer. But I guess you couldn't tell that, and I bet you won't even mind admitting it. You really don't seem to comprehend what the problem with that is, which is - if you can't even hear something THAT obvious, then you have zero credibility on anything else you have to say about the music or the performance or the performer, and no one who knows anything about it is going to take you seriously on those subjects, or really anything else that requires the sense of hearing. Which is a real shame, as this thread is otherwise a great source of information unlike any other out there that I know of in these or any other audiophile forums, and you are to be commended as the original beginner of it.
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Let’s say O-10’s story about "his friend" is true. The guy spent a summer with O-10 and he didn’t practice. OK. We know the guy was a piano player (according to O-10). Did O-10 have a piano in his apt? I doubt it. So, how was the guy going to practice had he wanted to. It is not significant that a professional musician who happens to be very busy performing, or because of circumstance, doesn’t practice for three months. So what? Musicians go through periods (usually relatively short) when they don’t practice much or at all; sometimes you just need a break. The problem with O-10’s comments is the leap to proclaiming that, not only don’t improvising musicians need to practice, that it is actually a bad thing for the creative process (!!!). |
No frogman, I am not generalizing, I'm being very specific, I'm talking about JC; there he is with that horn around his neck, when he should be having a good time like everybody else. Miles is acting a complete fool, his picture shows it; that's what people do when they are at a party. What's Trane doing, he went to sleep with that horn around his neck. If that's not overdoing it, I don't know what is.
How many JC's are there? Do you think anyone can be another JC by practicing? Get real, JC was overdoing it. Of course "everybody" needs to practice if they can, but do you take your horn to a party? If the party is a party of the best jazz musicians in the world, maybe; but give it a rest sometime.
I'm convinced that working so hard was a detriment to his playing near the end. If Trane's playing lost McCoy Tyner, and Alvin Jones, where was he going? I believe he couldn't accept the fact that he didn't have to work so hard, that his natural God given talents would take him where he wanted to go.
The biggest reason I'm not trying to prove that summer ever happened is because I can not prove the music because none of it was recorded; but I had been following his music for 6 years before that summer, and this new music was too incredible to believe.
Isaiah Thomas is the best example of someone just letting it flow; if you saw that game where he couldn't miss, you would know what I'm talking about.
I was playing a tennis match, must have been in late August, that means I had played a lot of matches, and done a lot of practicing; and I wasn't even trying really hard, but I could see the ball very clearly, and it appeared to have slowed down. Normally I was conscious of back hand form, or forehand form, but this day I wasn't conscious of anything, I was just playing the game as it presented itself.
Before I even knew it, I had won the set, and everybody was talking about my ground strokes. The only thing I knew was that the ball felt, and sounded good coming off the racket. I never played a match that good again. What I'm saying is "You got to let it flow"; all that hard work a person has been doing for years will takeover. The giants of jazz talk about letting it flow. If a person tries too hard, the muscles are tense and don't cooperate as well.
Enjoy the music.
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One of the most bizarre attempts at an explanation for why extreme dedication to the craft and always striving for improvement is a bad thing. I suppose it’s only natural and not surprising from someone who proudly proclaims to not want to learn anything about music.
I also find this "don’t work so hard, have a good time" attitude to usually be an attempt on the part of some to justify their own shortcomings and mediocrity. I am always looking to learn more, O-10, so please explain on what you base your assertion that JC’s hard work hurt his playing. Please give specifics about his playing and an example or two; this would make your comments relevant. Thanks.
But, here’s the really bizarre aspect of all this: the attempt at a black/white type connection between an artistic mind (JC) on a mission to constantly break new ground and the issue of "practice"; the distinction between the two things gets lost and that is where the reply interesting stuff can be found. Many musicians are obsessive workers who practice incessantly, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are reaching for uncharted artistic territory, they may be striving for perfection (or improvement) within their current artistic comfort zone. What distinguished JC was his never ending quest for new artistic ground. There is an important distinction here that may not be obvious to some. BTW, in the Jazz world, musicians break affiliations with band leaders to pursue solo careers as leaders themselves all the time because of their own need to follow their own individual artistic muse; the same process that JC is being criticized for here. Elvin Jones left JC, not because he didn’t believe in the music, but because JC decided to add a second drummer to the band. Ego?
Lastly, PLEASE, for the umpteenth time:. Alvin was a chipmunk, JC’s great drummer was Elvin. 😊 |
I know one thing for sure, you guys have certainly had enough practice in taking the word "practice" totally out of context, and you seem to have rehearsed this part.
Jzzmusician and I seem to be on the same page, now that he knows the proper context of the word "practice", yet you include him in your "charade". We all know a classical musician could not improvise if his life depended on it.
Rok, I think Harvey is a good name. Since that was the best summer I ever had (except for the surgery) in my life. I enjoy reminiscing about it. That same Summer before Harvey moved in, I met a beautiful lady at the lounge that served fantastic food, where Eddie Fisher played; how's that for a full house, plus she liked jazz as much as I did.
Enjoy the music.
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****We all know a classical musician could not improvise if his life depended on it.****
Wrong again, O-10. Improvisation is genre-blind and not necessarily unique to jazz; although much more important in jazz, obviously.
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What would you and Learsfool do if I never posted? You two are beginning to remind me of those guys in the doo wop groups where they sing and move in unison; I'll have to think of a befitting name for the dynamic duo; how about Clazzical and Jazzical the new musical sensation. |
This is what the ever creative Donald Byrd was doing in 1960, I think that's close enough; it's close enough for me anyway. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4979B9E391FF8C6BThis is Byrd in flight. Although this began as a "rukus" over Grant Greens music that wasn't released, or was released in Japan, it has produced a lot of very good jazz that most of us were unaware of. "Byrd In Flight" is another CD that belongs in my collection. The best thing about albums in this time period is there were very few weak cuts, you got an album full of music. Enjoy the music. |
Byrd In Flight:
Included in the Definitive Classic BN Collection.
Cheers |
Do you have any of those collections yet? If so, how is the recording quality?
Enjoy the music. |
****What would you and Learsfool do if I never posted?**** Lets see......rough, off-the-cuff guess without giving the question more than about the five seconds of thought that it deserves:. I would say that since the beginning of this thread maybe 1/4 of all my posts have had anything directly involving the OP. Of those, I would say that 1/4-1/2 have been in disagreent with or in response to some provocative or disrespectful comment by the OP. So.....what would I do?......I could increase the percentage of productive, positive posts by 10-15%. That would be very nice. However, I would also be decreasing the number of times that I have laughed while participating here. Of course, the known health benefits of laughter would clearly be offset by the stress of the contentious nature of some of the interaction. On balance....probably a wash as far as that goes. Bottom line, just as in jazz, how it all started and where it. came from matters a great deal. You, O-10, started the thread; so, for better or for worse, your participation matters. Fitting that this should come up today; it can be said that O-10 is the Mother of this thread. Truth is, having to address some of your non-sensical proclamations lays the groundwork for discussion of some valuable and relevant facts about this great music. So, please, don’t go changing ** : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HaA3YZ6QdJUthe great Phil Woods on alto saxophone. ** just kidding, of course 😉 probably one too many mimosas with brunch, too early in the day. Happy Mother's Day, O-10. |
Frogman, that's one of everybody's favorite songs, and we all have special memories attached to it; thanks for the song.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
Do you have any of those collections yet? If so, how is the recording quality?*****
Being on a mission for, and under orders of a Grand Poobah, I had to make sure my procedures were without fault.
I have the BN issued CD "The Cat Walk". I put the Donald Byrd box set "The Cat Walk" in one CD player and the BN in another. All playing thru the same amp. I just clicked back and forth between the two. The only difference was the volume level of the two. I then switched the CDs around to see if the difference in volume was the CD players or the CD disc.
The Box set CD does play at a lower volume. Not different, just at a lower volume. When I adjusted the volume to match, there was no difference that I could detect. I concentrated on the 'nuances'.
Keep in mind, I cannot hear the difference between wire, or cable lifters, or fuses, or gold painted bricks on my CD player, or between two amps of the same make and model. I also have never even considered my ceiling as a barrier to good sound. I understand they do blow the notes around. IBM told me tubes were distortion and noise generators. Same with LPs.
Please read this post with those personal handicaps in mind.
10 complete LPs for 19.98.
Cheers
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After that scientific examination and evaluation by a certified audiophile, I can feel confident that the BN Box sets will yield sonics of the highest quality, and I have taken your handicaps into consideration. (maybe you could work on those in your spare time)
Volume a little low is better than volume too high. I think I can overlook the fact that I have 3 of those at that price; especially considering one of them might be a scratchy record.
When the volume is too high, and it's on your play list, you will be awaken from a nice snooze thinking war done broke out; that one gets deleted.
I forgot which Silver was the one everybody liked, but it was in the 70's I believe, which means it wont be in the Silver collection. Job well done, carry on.
Enjoy the music.
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Hi O-10 - first, I want to say that I do feel bad at how acerbic my post last night was. I have been very ill with a strange stomach bug, and it was bothering me, and while that is not an excuse, it is a reason the bile came out in my post. I apologize for the tone of it.
Second - we actually had quite an extended conversation on this thread a couple of years ago, I think, about different ways that classical musicians improvise. Mostly it is keyboard players who do it on a regular basis. All professional organists, for instance, can improvise as well as a jazz musician - they do it every day in their jobs, too. I can improvise myself, though I do not do it in my job. I used to do it quite a bit when I was in grad school and when free-lancing shortly afterwards, before I won my permanent full time job, and even in public performance sometimes. Almost never in the jazz idiom, though - just once or twice in big band rehearsals when encouraged to try. I have also taught some of my horn students the basics of how to do it (which are the same no matter what the idiom, in fact one of those kids ended up immediately applying what I taught him to his jazz guitar playing with great success - surprised the hell out of the jazz band director at that university, who rewarded him with a couple of big features during the rest of his senior year). So yeah, I could very easily do it to save my ass. Am I saying I could do it like Coltrane or Frogman? No way. But in the classical idiom, I'm more than passable at it. |
Learsfool, improvisation is akin to conversation; what you say depends on what was said before you. Herby Hancock said he really messed up once, and Miles came in right behind him, and made everything sound perfect. The ability to do something like that comes from having done it before, and the time window to react is very short; consequently a musician who has never done it, or been required to do it, wouldn't be able to do it. There are things a classical musician is required to do, that a jazz musician would not be able to do.
"All" good musicians practice, but not incessantly; especially if they are going to engage in what amounts to fast conversation between musicians. The "only" way to practice that kind of improvisation is to do it in front of a live audience with other musicians.
Enjoy the music.
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And because I’m a hand percussionist / drummer, I love, love this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVPLIuBy9CYAnd no, it's not jazz. Like jazz though, the music has form, structure and room for improvisation. Enjoy, bob |
Once again, the OP makes comments about the process of making music, in this case improvisation and practice, that are incorrect or only partially correct. I am not "on a mission" to prove him wrong as he has said previously, I simply think that it is important to set the record straight about these issues since this is a music thread after all. The comments are made with a sense of authority and with the apparent backing of musicians. In this most recent case the problem is that the comments are tantamount to saying something like "global warming is real because Einstein determined that E=MC2". Huh? Sorry, O-10, but you don’t have it correct. I encourage you try and understand the process better and would be glad to help you with that. Several comments have been made already by other posters that are good and partial explanations. In the meantime, jzzmusician’s comment about practicing improvisation is spot on and explains very well why improvisation can be and must be practiced IN ORDER TO ALLOW the musician to be spontaneous when he is actually performing. Improvisation CAN be "akin to conversation" (Bill Evans and Scott LaFaro pioneered the "conversational" style of improvisation with their classic trios; but, that is a particular style of improvisation and improvisation is usually akin to a monologue with the support of the other musicians and certainly not "dependent" on what came before it. Again, it CAN be influenced by what came before it, but certainly not "dependent" on it. O-10, in some respects you are on the right track re "the process" and its always a positive thing to actually think about these things. The problem here is the incompleteness and absolutism with how you view these topics. As someone very wise once said: a little information is a dangerous thing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-vItf0G05MTHAT was Herbie’s comment. A great example of a musician (Miles) with fantastic musical instincts and ears; and SUPPORT of the spontaneous process. I suppose one could say there is something "akin to conversation" in that example, but it is, more than anything, an expression of Miles’ overall musical attitude of "go with the moment" and emblematic of his attitude for always accepting and reaching something new. Herbie played a wrong chord, had Miles not previously "practiced" playing over that type of (wrong) chord, that moment would not have been possible. That knowledge became part of his arsenal which he could draw upon in order to be spontaneous. |
Frogman, the only thing you're trying to do around here is to establish you're self as the "Alpha musician"; that's what the "Alpha wolf" does.
What do you think a jam session is? Why were jazz musicians constantly seeking "Jam sessions", especially musicians like Miles, who was a leader in "hard bop". "My Friend" did not need to practice when that's what he was doing in front of a live audience; now give me one of your "Phaking the Phunk" comments after that. He was a real live "hard bop" musician, and that's what it says in the record book, not a phaking the phunk kind who pounces on my statements even when they are 100% correct.
Enjoy the music.
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Sorry, not the case and not the truth. Alas. But, no hard feelings. |
Not only that, but you put in some more jive bs that will blend in with Learsfool's jive bs.
Herbie played a wrong chord, had Miles not previously "practiced" playing over that type of (wrong) chord, that moment would not have been possible. That knowledge became part of his arsenal which he could draw upon in order to be spontaneous.
If that ain't some jive BS I don't know what is; but it matches Learsfool's jive BS about practicing improvisation, which is "impossible"; that's like saying you're going to practice a "tennis match" without anyone on the other side of the net.
You have gone so far with your "diatribes" (that are not supposed to be diatribes to prove me wrong) that it's gotten to be a habit.
Call him out on this "aficionados", and maybe he'll quit.
Enjoy the music.
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****The ability to improvise comes from inside your head, the ability to act on what’s in your head comes from practice. Every serious musician I have ever known practices all the time. **** - jzzmusician
Its ALL right there in that comment. Congratulations jzzmusician, you have "established yourself as the alpha wolf" of the thread 🙀
C'mon, O-10, this is an opportunity to dig a little deeper and discuss some really interesting things about this great music. Your call, and as before, no hard feelings.
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I know and you know, that you and everyone else has taken that practice comment all out of context and stretched it clean around the world. Jzzmusician knows it as well; so please give it a rest.
I can just picture Miles practicing for an event that in all probability would never occur again in his life?
People who don't like rocks thrown at them, should not themselves throw rocks; That's Ezekal chapter 12.
Enjoy the music.
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Suggestion, O-10, why don't YOU give it a rest; it was you who brought it up again (!!) knowing, based on past discussions, that there would be disagreement. However, if you ever want to discuss it in a productive way, let me know. No hard feelings.
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"Practice" in any endeavor one want's to be successful at, is the most commonest of common sense. By now, everyone knows the word "practice" was taken out of context. But when I reflect back and think about it, that's what he was doing in front of a crowd of people who had paid to see and hear him; he was practicing "improvisation".
Enjoy the music.
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Update:
My BN copy of 'The Cat Walk' by Donald Byrd is the RVG edition. Could that account for the difference in volume?
Cheers |
Fellow "aficionados" my goal, my objective, my reason for starting this thread was to help us acquire new music in our collection, not to teach music, or to learn music.
Recently we have all made some very interesting discoveries as a result of a "rukus", but stranger things have happened. I discovered that my collection is a lot more incomplete than I thought it was. While that was bad news, the good news is that it can easily be rectified.
If the recording quality of these box sets are as good as Rok says they are, my troubles in regard to filling in the gaps in my collection will be over when the mailman drops those boxes in my mail box.
Enjoy the music.
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Out of all the people I've seen live, Gladys Knight impressed me the most, and she didn't even have The Pips with her. I don't know how my wife acquired the tickets, but they were the highest price ones that I don't usually buy; anyway, whether I wanted to or not, I was going to see Gladys Knight that evening. Dark ominous clouds greeted us when we walked out the door. "And I'm not even a fan of Gladys Knight", I mused. Fortunately we were on our way into the theater when I heard the first crack of thunder. Once you got inside this theater, a war could be raging outside, and you wouldn't hear it, that was good. After thanking us for coming out on such a stormy night to see her, she spoke about the first song she was going to do, (which I don't remember) and how it affected her and us personally; that's when I realized how much Gladys Knight had been part of my life without my knowledge. "Star Quality" is something you don't know until you see it; she had it all the way, and before you knew it, she made you feel like she was entertaining you (personally) in her living room. I had no idea she had so many songs that I had heard in so many different places, and each one of those songs was a part of me. Here's Gladys Knight's album, and you can pick out your "Gladys Knight" song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS3Y_OISzr4Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I thought I had answered your question. Yes it does make a difference; Rudy discovered that if you cut down the volume, that gave you more room for dynamic range. The difference between soft and loud can be very distracting when the volume is high; recording level is a tricky issue.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I got it backwards but as long as everything works out, what difference does it make |
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Hi O-10 - as Frogman and jzzmusician pointed out, your post in response to mine was quite wrong. There is nothing you mentioned about improvisation that a classical musician cannot do, even if we assume that we are only discussing the style of improvisation that you are talking about. Any competent musician of any genre can do that, with some practice. All it requires is some basic knowledge that you are not interested in. We get that you don't want to be taught anything. However, you will have to accept that therefore there are things you will never understand and will continue to be wrong about; and that we will continue to correct misinformation you keep putting out there because of this. |
Learsfool, we're talking about "hard bop" where you improvise from beginning to end, as in a "Jam Session"; like the one's Miles, Bird, and Diz engaged in, not just improvising in a standard piece of music.
I am not even hinting that you are not the most competent of competent musicians; what I am saying is that you would not be able to engage in a "hard bop" jam session.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, you do have an ear for new music, new to me anyway. I listen on a regular basis to one of your recommendations; the controversial one.
Renee Rosnes is very pretty; unfortunately I wont be seeing her beauty in my listening room, but since she also plays beautiful music, that will suffice.
I'm looking over her discography in order to select a purchase. Thanks for the heads up.
Enjoy the music.
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"Aficionados", I seem to write a lot about big time musicians I've seen live, and I was wandering; what have I written about Art Blakey?
My memory is not as good as it once was, and I don't like to repeat myself; I was hoping that you might help me out before I attempt to gather my thoughts about the time I saw Art Blakey.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman3, excellent Renee Rosnes clip; up there with Bill Charlap (her husband) as one of my very favorite of the new crop of piano players. There is a truism in music, applicable to any genre, that a musician plays the way that he/she is as a person. Rosnes is a wonderful player with a clear Bill Evans influence who plays in a way that is, dare I say it?, feminine in the approach to the keyboard and to rhythm. Lest I upset those with a pc sensibility, I mean that only as a compliment based on my sensibilities and I am obviously generalizing; I appreciate the differences between the feminine and masculine approach to things. There is a gentle and "sexy" approach to rhythm in her playing that I love. She is the opposite of percussive on the keyboard and her rhythmic feel has a wonderful light touch that draws you in and doesn't hit you over the head. Beautiful player. With her husband Bill Charlap on the Joe Henderson classic: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dsiDkEuxM1cWould love to know the inside scoop of the reason for the choice of this tune on their album together: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xgya62mb1NUAlso, thanks for the Lage and Frisell clips; great stuff. Lage has such a distinctive tone; and Frisell is, of course, brilliant as always. |
O-10, I mean no disrespect and I certainly don't want to "violate" any unwritten set of rules that you may have envisioned for this thread as a thread of recommendations of recordings and nothing more. I am well aware of the fact that you don't want to and didn't intend this thread to be about "learning music". First of all, I don't see how it's possible to have any kind of substantive discussion of anything or any artist by simply keeping the thread's posts to "I like" or "I don't like", personal anecdotes and nothing more. Personally, I think it would be a pretty boring thread. But, let's assume that we agree to those "rules". I think that the reason we seem to be going around in circles about this is that, first of all, you yourself keep bringing up technical aspects of the music and that there is a basic misunderstanding about some....basics; and the misuse of certain key terms. The only alternative would be to let those misstatements slide and continue a discussion based on a mistaken premise; not a reasonable proposition I think. Take this recent issue of improvisation:
Even in hard-bop there is no such thing as "improvising beginning to end" as you wrote. Moreover, the issues around this disagreement about improvisation applies to ANY style of jazz, not just hard bop. I think that a good place to start clearing up this confusion is by recognizing the mistaken notion that because there are no sheets of music in front of them that the musicians are necessarily "improvising". This is not the case. There is, first of all, the "tune" or melody in a hard bop performance which is not "improvised", and then there are various formulas which are used as the FRAMEWORK for improvisation. I'll stop there unless you want to know more. Regards. |
Frogman, since this thread began, you have talked about anything you wanted to talk about, why should you stop now?
Sometime there are two or maybe three different conversations going at the same time on different subjects; maybe Rok and Learsfool are engaged in a conversation about classical music, that I couldn't care less about.
Your last paragraph would seem to indicate that you wrote the book on "improvisation" and you even know how every "hard bop" artist improvises. Considering all the different artists I've heard, and the fact that you're going to give some standard framework for improvisation, I think you're talking smack.
Enjoy the music
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"I am well aware of the fact that you don't want to and didn't intend this thread to be about "learning music". Why do you direct this BS at me?
I'm hindering all the poor people who want to learn music on this thread; bad bad Orpheus. If it wasn't for me, you could teach em to blow like Miles. Teach on professor Frogman, you have my blessings.
Enjoy the music.
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Now I'm really confused. This is something that you have said repeatedly and here I was thinking that you would appreciate my knowledgment of what you have said countless times. I'm kinda speechless. What can I say.... |
O-10, there is an important difference between setting out to "teach" and simply correcting misstatements in order to keep a discussion relevant. I hope you are able to understand that distinction at some point. No, I don't think you are "bad,bad, Orpheus hindering" anyone. I don't think about these things that way and anyone participating in one of our discussions can choose to ignore my point of view, or not. However, just as you are free to express yourself about this stuff, so is anyone else, myself included. Whether you want to accept it or not, what I write about music is not "talking smack"; I do know what am talking about. I hope you will at some point stop being so reactive and simply take this as an opportunity to, if not learn, have the satisfaction of knowing that you are presenting ideas that are factual. Please try and read what write a little more carefully: I never said that there was a "standard" framework for improvisation; my comment was:
****and then there are various formulas which are used as the FRAMEWORK for improvisation. I'll stop there unless you want to know more.****
The last sentence goes to the fact that there can be different frameworks and that if you want to know more I would be glad to explain. I look forward to your stories about Art Blakey.
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