Whilst they sounded pretty good, they never sounded quite right
That's a problem.Putting that aside,
it's easy to get "better" sound. But does it matter? Sounds like you found the answer to that question.
Is this the entrance to my rabbit-hole?
I own a pair of vintage Klipschorns, '73 model. About 10 years ago I replaced the crossover boards with a pair of Bob Crite built ones. They had served me very well.
I use a variety of low powered valve amps with my favourite all rounder being a Miniwatt. Don't laugh! The ease with which this little beauty controls the K'horns is astonishing and it sounds fantastic to my ears.
Prior to the World seemingly going mad, a gent lent me (with a view to possibly buying them) a set of active cross-overs that he had built himself, based on a well known design. He had replaced these, on his highly modified later model K"horns, with a time phased MiniDSP set up which sounded pretty good to my ears.
Anyway, I connected them and played around with them for weeks until finally settling on a mid-range setting I was "happy" with. They have been in constant use for about 12-18 months after a few swithches back and forth with the originals early on in the piece.
I won't bore you with the theory of how they work nor how and why they are supposed to improve one's listening experience
Whilst they sounded pretty good, they never sounded quite right and I was constantly thinking that I would eventually have to do some more fiddling and possibly get into the whole mini DSP scene to fix the percieved short-comings in my sound.
I even had an old Luxman 308 refurbished and brought it into play as I thought I might be able to tame some issues with it's tone controls. Turns out that I could but still, it never sounded quite right.
Last week after again agreeing with "she who must be obeyed" that we had too much stuff, I relented and began to rationalise my situation. The active crossovers had been left on top of the "Khorns so that I could adjust them as necessary and there they had stayed for months, knowing that she disliked seeing them there gathering dust.
As I had not yet bought them, I decided to connect my original passive crossovers and finally make a choice on one set or the other. Keeping the actives would see them installed inside the top hat and out of sight.
To say that I was very surprised at the result would be an understatement.
The music just seemed to gel. Track after track of very familiar tunes had my toes tapping by the 2nd song.
The speakers sounded like they were working in synergy, together and as a pair. Where before they sounded like 3 separate speakers in each corner of the room, now they sounded like each speaker cabinet was working seamlessly as one, and as a pair, well the imaging improved in all directions and the music was just........alive.
The last few nights listening has me convinced that I don't need the extra cost and hassle of the supposed improvements I might gain.
Where would I go if I still wasn't happy? On and on, down and down that rabbit hole that we've all probably stared into at certain times.
Lesson learnt. Stop chasing the rabbits. Enjoy the music.
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Forgot to add. In determining whether to go shallow or steep slope crossover, I came across various opiniions, both have advantages and disadvantages, I chose the shallow slope based on some reporting a more discreet presentation with steep slope, a sense of three separate drivers vs shallow slope with their overlapping coverage of freq. spectrum. Also, my early listening sessions with completely stock Khorns were pleasing, while at the same time displaying some of the limitations of my era Khorns with the K401 metal horns. Since I found the general presentation pleasing I decided to maintain with Paul's original intention for the Khorn.
Having said that, I do believe the Volti crossovers should be very nice, lots of adjustability. I could go down second rabbit hole with another set of Khorns and these crossovers! |
@ianrodger My room is 13" x 26' with opening into kitchen, which extends another 10" or so. have Khorns on short wall, being only 13"W meant on axis listening far too close to speakers. With the artificial wall I was able to extend on axis listening point to around 13', so I have plenty of space behind listening position.
In dedicated treated room I get fantastic sound stage and imaging, the holographic, shimmering presentation you speak of is also nearly life size, big advantage of these large speakers.
Don't know if you checked out my system, but I modded my Crites type A crossovers, all drivers changed out, Volti horns, separate baffle for tweeters for more correct physical time allignment, only thing stock is bass bin. So, yes I've gone far down the rabbit hole, just in a different direction from the usual😎 |
The gent I borrowed the active crossovers from had the tri-amp Volti setup, I think. Is that the DIY one that comes supplied as separate oval cutouts that are glued together at home? I must say that I was a bit underwhelmed when I heard them. His listening environment was not ideal and I'm sure that was most of the issue. They were smooth, I'll give them that but they had lost a lot of the bite and crunch that K'horns are capable of producing. Again, the room - too big and too full. When he heard mine, prior to installing the actives, he was astounded by the soundstage and the almost holographic organ notes they were producing. This is what was lacking the most when the actives went in - the mid-air shimmer of keyboards and the placement of the performers as they moved around on stage or in the studio. |
sns, that is an interesting concept. When people start talking speaker placement I wonder if I'm lucky or not by having corner horns. Just set and forget, other than the distance between them. The Manual that came with my K'horns shows how to make an artificial corner for them but a corner that is other than 90 degrees is something I hadn't considered. How big is your room? Is there much air space behind your normal listening position? regards, Ian |
I believe the closed box Khorns have been available for some time.
One thing I've never seen mentioned with Khorns is the possibility of modifying corner walls in order to get more toe out. I modified my corner walls with varying stacks of 2x4's in order to get more toe out. Also sealed with foam insulation and custom made top caps so I have 100% seal with greater toe out. I have greater bass impact and articulation with this setup than in non modified state. |
I haven't heard Khorns in quite a few years. Have become interested again due to an email from Upscale Audio on the 75th anniversary AK6. They mention that they are now sealed boxes and do not need to be in a corner. Can someone tell me when they sealed the boxes or is that a very recent modification to the original design (as in the AK6 designation)? Does anyone know of audio store in North Jersey where they can be auditioned? The "find a dealer" on their site comes up with a ton of Best Buy and P.C. Richards. Regards, barts |
I did the full Volti/Khorn upgrade package with my 1990's Khorns about 3 years ago. About $4,600 cost for all the new components. EVERY component is removed from the cabinets, and replaced with much better parts. Completely changed the sound of the Khorns ! My wife and I were standing in awe at first listening to our "new" Khorns. Wish we'd have done it ten years earlier. I believe the majority of the improvement in sound is a result of the Volti wooden mid-horns, new 2" German drivers, better-grade horn/tweeter assembly, and the new 15" bass drivers. The Volti crossovers are very cool, and can easily be "tuned" to your taste. Nice plus is that Greg is but a phone call away, in case you have a question, mid-project. Point of all that, re the OP, is that I believe crossovers can only do so much, and that MUCH greater improvement can be had by replacing the horns & drivers. Cost more, for sure, but since you are going down the hole.......
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OP thanks for posting I have the Speakerlab SK versions and I would like to upgrade them but they just sound so right and I don't want to screw it up. I've looked at the Volti, ALK and Crites sites for an upgrade path and I'm unable to pull the trigger (rabbits... trigger) on anything but I still hear the rabbits calling. I'm a female vocals guy ,that's my priority. What can I expect with and upgrade and what's the best way to get more intimate, more real, more involved?
Cheers
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Going to MiniDSP crossovers begs the question. What would happen if you dove in all the way. The K Horn was the speaker of my desires back when I was 13 years old. With a Dynakit Stereo 70 you could rock with the best of them. At 13 I had to settle for Heresys. As more powerful amps became available some of the K Horns failings became obvious particularly if you were listening to KLH Model 3s. Each driver has a different group delay and that prevents them from producing the best image. DEQX is about to release a new series of components. The Pre 8 is a fully digital preamp with bass management, room control and an active 4 way crossover. It's resolution is several orders on magnitude better than the MiniDSP and it is far more flexible. It would be a lot of fun to tri amp the K horns and add subwoofers which would clean up that 15" woofer dramatically as it operates up to 500 hz depending on how old they are. I think they now cross at 300 Hz. With all the drivers time aligned and the frequency response curves of both channels matching I cannot believe the sound would not be glorious. |
A few years ago I had 1976 Khorns with AA xovers. I recapped with the Crites kit but wasn't happy with the sound. I ended up with a pair of Volti crossovers that I felt made a very nice improvement. And Greg Roberts is a gem to work with. Just something to think about as you peer down your rabbit hole.
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After purchasing my Klipschorns some years ago, went through decision making process with active, steep slope and shallow slope crossovers all considered. In the end I retained shallow slope in spite of the known defects. I wouldn't trade better specs of steep slope or active crossovers for original design intentions of Paul Klipsch. My Klipschorns are the last loudspeakers I will own, sense of live performers in room unsurpassed in my experience. |
