Is there a difference in sound quality when streaming TIDAL Vs CD player

Agree it makes no sense that an old fomat like vinyl tops CD but there is no contest in my high end rig. I did hear the Audio Research CD9 at a show and it sounded good but home audition revealed it to be not so good. I like 16/44 redbook files though. 

Someone just replied and said he thought the sound of TIDAL was better than a CD.  Glad I am not the only one who feels TIDAL quality is better.  I hard wired my router to my Apple TV and perhaps that makes a difference.  The same person told me prefers vinyl over everything.  I don't know how this is possible because there is more noise with vinyl and the needle is only able to make contact with so much area on the groove of the vinyl record.  This said, you must be losing a lot of information and as a result detail.

I just read a review on the Legacy Focus speakers.  They must be incredible.  I wonder how they sound compared to Jim Salk's Song3 Encore towers priced at $6,000.  To date I have not heard better.  I couldn't believe how they sounded compared to a pair of $60,000 speakers I hear at the RMAF in October.  I don't think anyone handles the Legacy Focus speakers in Denver, but I will be looking.

To change the subject, I wonder how people in this group feel about how important amperage/current is when buying an amplifier to create superior sound quality?  For example, Parasound has a 5 channel amplifier that delivers 180 watts and 67 amps per channel while Primare has a 5 channel amp delivers 150 watts and only 30 amps per channel.  I contacted Primare and the guy told me sound quality is not dependent on current.  He also told me the Primare would blow away the Parasound amp.  I think this guy was blowing smoke and mirrors.  I wonder what people in this group think.  This in itself would make for an interesting discussion.

I can hardly tell difference between CD and Tidal. I am now subscribe Qobuz Studio (a lot 192kHz/24bit and 96kHz/24bit), I am quite satisfied.

I find CD to be deeply flawed medium and much prefer Tidal, my reference is my turntable and live acoustic music. 

If you’d just bought the 205 instead of the 203... 😜 

I've sold at least a dozen mid-fi pieces of equipment in mint condition including McIntosh MX110, Fisher 1000 preamp, Acoustat Xs, 2&2s, Martin Logan Quest and Monolith IIIs.  The reason, I purchased something I liked better.  I did purchase my current Legacy Focus speakers defective in that the prior owner rewired it but left out the mid-range insulation so that the speaker was very bright and forward for brass, upper voice and upper strings.  Yuk.  It took a few years until I found the problem (I used other techniques to alleviate some of the brightness) and stuffed the cavities with ample damping materials.  Now it sounds smoooth in the upper mids.

“Why is the party selling them getting rid of them?”

I wouldn’t be worrying about this too much. People change / upgrade / downgrade components for various reasons. The key is to read available specs and reviews for the component or speakers you’re considering before you make a purchase. Next thing you need to make sure that used item has no operational or cosmetic flaws and what’s being included in the sale. 

SALK Audio makes great speakers and are reasonably priced. I am not sure about the analogy of $6K vs $60k....i think this kind of broad generalizations ( like any Focal speakers ) is too vague and carries no weight. I personally don’t care for low end Focals but once you get upto mid to high range they are pretty good. 

You find Focal’s overpriced, no argument there but so is everything else that carries ‘fat’ dealer margins. Plus Focal’s are being made overseas, so one must account for import duties and freight costs. 

I personally would be scared to purchase used speakers.  How does a novice even know they are in perfect condition?  Why is the party selling them getting rid of them?  That would indicate they were not satisfied with the sound quality.

I wonder if anyone has ever heard a pair of SALK Song3 Encore speakers?  For $6,000 they were much better than a pair of $60,000 speakers I heard at the RMAF.  They are certainly better than any of the Focal speakers I have heard.  Obviously, no one in this discussion group thinks much of Focal otherwise you would constantly hear people bragging about how great they are.  They are also over priced.  However, I do like their tweeters and their mid voicing.  I think they are designed to hear classic music and vocals such as Diana Krall or choral music.

Don't rule out Qobuz if you talk about stream. You should try Qobuz studio 192khz/24 bit. Compare to CD, it is day and night. Try it yourself.

Oh, and add the Benchmark DAC3 HGC to the list above.

Here are some DACs between $1500-$3,500 I think would surpass the DACs in your Arcam.  If you are all in on digital music, it would be worth it to check these out.  Which is for you depends on your budget, personal tastes and synergy with your other gear and your room.

-Auraluc Vega
-Bryston BDA-3
-Chord Qutest
-HoloAudio Spring Kitsune Tuned Edition Level 3
-iFi Pro iDSD DAC
-Mytek Hifi Brooklyn DAC+
-Naim DAC-V1
-Schiit Audio Yggdrasil

Qobuz is as good as a CD if content is CD or better HR. The problem was they dont have many songs. If they did, my CD player would be on Audiogon. =)  

My approach is that overall system synergy between all of the parts from the breaker box to the wires to the collection of equipment to the room construction to the seating position is more critical than the particular parts.  I have heard systems >>$100K that left me cold and systems that cost 1/10 that much that had me in seventh heaven.  Its a matter of how all the parts work together in your room with your ears.

Starting with the speakers is a common place because that is where the sound comes out, and speakers may editorialize the sound more and interact more with your room than other pieces.  Next to the speakers, the source, turntable or DAC, add the most “flavor”.  But having a great speaker with a noisy or weak amp, or a stridant DAC will only paint you a terrific picture of upstream weaknesses. Balance, balance, balance.

I provided a couple DAC brands and a budget target for you to consider, above.  More than that would require some thought.

Thanks for confirming my thought on speaker wire and interconnects.  I purchased a pair of Tara Labs for $240 and find them to be sufficient.  However, I have not heard the difference by comparing these to more expensive speaker wire.

Didn't realize a DAC can make such a difference.  I wonder what DAC's you would recommend and at what cost.  Again, would someone gain a lot more by investing in a more expensive pair of speakers?  I still we never forget how incredible the SALK Encore3 Song speakers sounded at the RMAF priced at $6,000.  Just wish I had been able to listen to them before I purchased mine.  They would have been well worth the wait.  I don't know if anyone knows Jim Salk, but he is the real deal.  However, the longer I am involved in this hobby, I cannot believe how many speaker manufacturers there are out there.  It still would be nice if dealers carried a full line of speakers so I could listen to all price ranges to hear the difference and then determine if the more expensive ones are worth the investment.  I also still think if speaker manufacturers chose a select number of dealers to carry their line, they would be able to sell their more expensive speakers if they consigned them.  Perhaps offer a 6 month consignment time line.  This in turn would motivate the dealers to sell them before the time runs out.

@fleschler,

Thank you for your recommendation on GroverHuffman cables. They are reasonably priced and appears to be a well thought out design. With 60 days return policy I will try them in very near future.

Larry, welcome to modern hifi.  You have touched in some manner here on several hot topics.

1. I hear a difference between Tidal and CDs, and the same digital files saved to my computer server on both my systems. Generally, Server > CDs > Tidal.  This is with the upgraded subscription. I don’t notice that much difference with Tidal served on my computer via ethernet (I.E. “hard wired”) or wifi, or via my iphone, with all feeding DAC via USB cable.

2. Your Arcam does likely have a better DAC with better jitter control than the internal DAC of the Oppo 203, which is optimized for video.  So it is not surprising you find better sound playing CDs through the Arcam’s DAC via HDMI versus RCA cables from your Oppo, regardless the quality of the RCA cable.  The RCA cable can’t fix mistakes upstream.  You might try running a (single) coaxial digital RCA cable from your Oppo’s coaxial out to the Arcam’s coaxial in to see if that sounds better than the HDMI cable.  Simpler cable with only function to deliver digital sound.

That said (number one), I have an older Arcam receiver than yours, and I find that I like the internal DACs better for Bluerays and DVDs than for CDs spun from my consumer grade Samsung Bluray player - all via a decent HDMI cable.  CDs played through my external Arcam irDAC via optical cable from my modest Blueray player, and decent quality RCA cables out of the DAC to my Arcam receiver, sound better than straight from the Blueray player to the receiver via HDMI cable.  The difference is not subtle.  

All this makes me think the internal DACs in the Arcam are optimized for multichannel and higher resolution recordings on DVDs and especially Blurays.  Get one of the Guitar Festival Bluerays and you will see what I mean.  It also makes me think you might get better two channel sound by adding an external DAC between your Oppo AND your Apple TV (Via different digital cables running to the same DAC) and your Arcam receiver.  The Arcam is a fantastic amp and home theater reciever, but for two channel you can do better with an external DAC.  Instead of spending $5000 on a set of cables, spend under $2,000 on a Benchmark or Chord or some other well-regarded DAC, and your system (including whatever speakers you currently have) will sing like you’ve never heard it.

3. That said (number two), I hear a noticeable difference between different digital, RCA, speaker or AC cables.  Even inexpensive systems benefit from upgraded cables.  Be smart, set a reasonable budget, and try some different wires.  The Cable Company will lend them to you for a fee if you want to rent and try before you buy.

good luck,

kn

Well, I’ve taken the road in between. I purchase ICs, A/C and speaker cables that sell for $300 to $900 from the manufacturer GroverHuffman.com (as a beta tester, I auditioned 100s of cables from his and other companies).

I would rather $5,000 on speakers too. However. for about $500, one can purchase excellent high end speaker cables and pay $4,500 for the speakers. Also, one can purchase really high end speakers used for $5,000. For only $2,500 or less, a pair of Legacy Focus or even less for Legacy Signature IIIs, easily driven by low watt, high current receivers and get high quality sound.

I hate the term blind listening test for audio.  Some other nomenclature should be available for an audio test of equipment, cables and tweaks.

Larry
You should hear a difference between DACs in a blind test. Interconnect cables usually can make a describable difference, however, I don't think spending $5K on speaker wire will be worth it. I use $100 worth of 10 gage stranded and twisted pair by a company called KnuKoncepts (available on amazon)  on my Maggies with great success. I've compared it to cables costing 10 times as much with no apparent difference. The 10 g prevents any voltage drop from the amp to the speakers so there is no loss of power. 10g is about as big as one can have and still make a direct connection to an amp or speaker. I've seen some very high end wire by various companies that look like fire hoses, but I think that's mostly a feel good experience as the connectors become the limitation. The stranded and twisted aspect is most important. Electrons don't travel down the center of a wire, however they travel down the surface. The stranded wire increases the surface area for the electrons to travel making a stranded wire a clearer "highway" for the electrons to travel. This assures that the impedance of the wire does not vary much thru the frequency spectrum. Twisting the wire cancels noise effects caused by nearby radio frequency devices. 

I didn't realize a DAC can make such a SIGNIFICANT improvement in sound quality.  Can you really hear this difference with a blind test?

I have a difficult time believing you can hear a significant difference in speaker cable and interconnects.  

I think if I had a choice between spending $5,000 on expensive wire, I would benefit a great deal more if I purchased a new pair of speakers that cost $5,000 more than the ones I purchased.

Wow, I did not know that. Thanks jrapp, retired AF.

Just a side note. Many people are unaware of the fact that TIDAL offers a discount to Active Duty and Retired Military and Veterans. Since I'm retired Navy I get my TIDAL HiFi for $11.99 a month. 

Agreed, it’s all about the DAC. When I say DAC I refer to the DAC/opamp device that takes the digital signal and convert it to a usable analog signal, not the individual chip. This device might be stand alone or imbeded in a larger piece of equipment. Having done trials on many DACs I find it is very much an individual thing. A DAC is like a musical instrument, different DACs have distinctly different sounds, so the Best DAC device is the one your ear prefers. In my case since I’m older and my HF hearing isn’t as good as it once was, I prefer a DAC that is designed with high resolution and timbre that others might find bright.

The Oppo DAC is adequate, but to get the most out of your digital sources, you need a stand-alone DAC. Mine is an Aqua La Scala, not cheap but well worth it.

I have hard wired my motem using CAD6 cable to my Apple TV and hard wired using CAD6 cable from the Apple TV to my ARCAM.  Wouldn’t that be equal to a 16 bit CD recording.  So if that is the case wouldn’t that still sound the same as if I were playing a 16 bit CD on my OPPO 203?  I needed to hard wire in order to eliminate the signal from breaking up when I tried to stream wirelessly.  Wonder also if hardwiring improved the sound quality as well.

Thanks to all for the dialogue.  You all have such incredible knowledge.

None of the streaming options have many of my extensive CD collection recordings.  No Marston, Romophone, limited issue ethnic recordings, possibly 30% of my CD collection.  Plus, the source of many of my finer jazz and classical CDs can be lesser remasterings with my owning several of each with one clear superior mastering.  So, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket.  I have about 7,000 CDs and listen to LPs and 78s.  Again, about 40% of my 25,000 LP collection and about 50% of the 7,000 78 collection are not available on streaming or downloads and probably never will be.

@larry5729,

DSD stands for Direct Stream Digital (Sony digital audio format). It is a trademark used by Sony and Philips for their system of digitally recreating audible signals for the Super Audio CD (SACD). DSD uses pulse-density modulation encoding, a technology to store audio signals on digital storage media which are used for the SACD.

Red book CD is another acronym for standard CD. In technical terms, Red Book refers to a set of professional specifications for audio CD’s. The reason it’s called is very simple - They are so named because the colour of the cover of the book that contains all these technical specifications for the standard audio CD is red.

The Qobuz is another competing streaming service that is becoming popular in US (it’s a French company).

You should be able to stream Qobuz through your Apple device once you download their app. But I am not sure if you are able to steam high resolution (24bit/192khz) files through Apple TV.

When I stream Qobuz through my iPhone in my car, the resolution max out at 16bit/44.1khz (which is same as cd resolution) even though I have high resolution subscription plan.

In my home setup, I hear full high resolution 24bit/192kHz through my Aurender N10. 

For the price of tidal premium,  I'm very happy with just tidal. Convenience,  cost, selection and no cludder from empty CD cases. Just easy to take with me on my phone. Create different play list and add songs as I experience different selections. I used to be into cds big time in the 90s. This just saves me money and taking cds in and out to my car. So I believe the sound is great with tidal/blue sound. Suits my needs perfectly.  Had a great system in my truck that I sold, dont want to go that route again.  About 3k into it. 

Never heard of Red Book CD.  Looked it up and it is confusing.  Is this a brand or a standard I should look for when purchasing CD's?

I never heard of Qubuz.  Do you need to buy a decoder to use the studio version?

What does DSD stand for?  There are so many acronyms you all use that I do not understand.  Wonder if there is an acronym dictionary?

Cd on a good player/dac Audio Research Ref9 or fed to PS Audio Direct Stream dac- redbook sounds as good or better in most cases. My 2 cents

“Tidal HiFi is superb for playing from cars, mobiles, and up to 2000$ fixed gear”

This is the most absurd opinion I ever read anywhere on these forums. The difference in sound quality varies due to the original master used for a CD or Tidal streaming and playback hardware.

Majority of the content available on Tidal HiFi is of CD quality or better. I won’t comment on MQA due to various controversies surrounding the process.

I am now listening to Qobuz and their content in 24/192kHz or 24/96kHz is definitely sounds better than MQA, IMO.

I’ve managed to trim down my CD’s and SACD’s collection to now 250 (from 900) that apparently source from superior master than what’s currently available on Tidal or Qobuz.

The different formats are only as good as the hardware you render it on. The very best SACD/CD transport as a digital source is better than anything else. Anything less than that can go either way.

I am going to address the Tidal v CD issue. I play my CDs and stream TIDAL on a Cocktail Audio X35. The X35 is a "Swiss army knife" device and one wouldn’t assume that it is as high a quality device as it truly is. Since I stream Tidal and play CDs on the same device the circuitry and ESS Sabre³² Reference DAC are the same and there are no interconnects in-between to effect sound quality and timber; I would pronounce my comparison to be about as true an A-B comparison as one can achieve. The rest of my system is also high quality. The X35 is connected to my Indy Labs Aragon 8008 with Synergistic Research Resolution Reference ICs and the amp feeds a pair of Maggie 3.7i and a Definitive S4000 powered sub. My system nearly doubles the cost threshold of 10K another contributor mentioned. The bottom line is to my ears the sound of Tidal streaming HiFi v playing the same album on CD is nearly indistinguishable. Tidal streaming in MQA is IMHO also difficult to distinguish except on stellar albums.

Larry , great question . But unfortunately you have many variables to contend with . You will benefit the most from trying various combinations on YOUR SYSTEM . At my home,  I have an Oppo 105, a Schiit Yiggy , a Musical Fidelity’s transport . For source I have a Windows based laptop, Apple TV, Direct TV DVR. I’ve used Single Ended RCA, Digital Coax , USB to USB (B), balanced digital . Most of the inter connects are decent quality , eg ; Cardas Clear , Morrow , Anti Cables and Analysis Plus . My taste prefers the Schiit DAC over the Oppo . CD’s on the Musical Fidelity’s transport and DVD’s on the Oppo . Streaming is substantially better from the computer than the Apple or the Cable box . I had a home theater setup, but came to dislike it and currently run 2.0 ( Stereo ) with low power , or 2.2 ( Stereo with 2 subs ) in a higher power setup . I use the same sources for both , but split the system at the pre and have tone control on the system with the subs . I would suggest you obtain some decent used cables and experiment. Then when your satisfied with your combo , go to a higher level of cables in the brand/style you prefer . Also save the cables you acquired , as you will undoubtably be in this situation again . One of the things I did was to cultivate a friendship with a couple Agoners in order to loan cables and tubes . Also my opinion is that Anti Cables are neutral and require little break in , making them a pleasant experience. And Grannyring makes good cables at a reasonable price ( message him ). Cheers , Mike B. 

" Just wish I was rich and had a wife (who) would allow me to spend more money on this hobby."

You've just identified the two most important components to ant audio system! You're a wise man. So just trust your own judgement and enjoy your listening time by concentrating (actually NOT concentrating as much as soaking in) the best music you can find. I wish I would take my own advice more often.

Of course you can tell the difference. I used Tidal MQA and compare it to CD as well as Tidal lossless 44.1k/16bit. 
Tidal MQA (192k, 96k, 88.2k/24bit)>Tidal 44.1k/16=CD
Now I am listening to Qobuz studio 192k/24bit, 96k/24bit. I can tell you

Qobuz 192k/24 >> 44k/16bit.

Qubuz is not cheap (25USD/month) though.

as a side note.... listen to the DSD of Floyd's . Wish You Were Here... good lawd that ill make you feel like you are hearing it for the second time...

Back when I was using a CD player for digital music, I noticed definite differences between players and converters.

Since I ripped all of my digital material (using a computer CD drive) to a server and play from that via Sonos to my various systems, I haven't been able to tell reliably that there is any difference between direct playback from the CD player, play by streaming from the network drive, or listening to Tidal high quality.

The slight inferiority of Tidal low quality, Spotify etc. is readily apparent though.

I use a Hegel DA converter.

Based on this and other discussions/threads, I think the relative SQ from different digital sources is system dependent.  Not surprising when you think about it, but also means the best way to determine what gets you the best SQ is to listen and experiment.

My experience, which is limited, leads me to the following ranking, worst to best:
- Redbook CDs via Oppo transport and DAC
- Redbook CDs via Oppo transport and PS Audio DS DAC
- Local NSA via PS Audio DAC
- Tidal via PS Audio DAC

Honestly, I am not certain I could consistently tell a difference in blind testing of the last two.

My experience with MQA vs standard files from Tidal is both evolving and mixed.  Evolving bc a couple months ago I declared on another thread that MQA was superior (at least for my system my ears), and then I went back and listened more closely, doing some A/B comparisons where possible, and changed my mind, determining that there is not a consistent difference one way or the other.  My theory is that it depends on the quality of each type of recording.  Some standard files sound better than MQA and vice versa.

Another thing to consider is the connection type - for example, PS Audio seems to tout ethernet or I2I connection, believing this makes a big difference in SQ.  I am sure those who enjoy their DACs without these options could disagree.  There are those who swear that the ethernet cable itself makes a difference (lookin at you, Supra fans!) in this chain.

And like many, the damn fine convenience of Tidal has me looking at but not spinning my cds, except for in the car. And I do continue to buy CDs, for the car and for when the internet crashes (which is rare but still scary), and also to support the artists and the independent record stores.

My experience matches exactly what wrenth says.
Red book CDs sound better than Tidal, even Master recordings.

Yes, especially when performing a direct comparison between Tidal and a cd.  Any manipulation of the signal affects sound quality.  Although they claim the feature is sonically transparent, it isn’t.  Just as MP3 was claimed to sound as good as a cd.
The feature is useful for casual listening to play lists as you mentioned so as to avoid constant attention to the volume control.  I don’t listen that way so I leave the loudness normalization disabled.
Since it only takes a few seconds to switch off/on, you can change the setting as needed to match your listening session.

rhljazz, are you saying I should disable the loudness normalization function?  If so, why?  I thought this feature when engaged eliminates the volume differences you get from one album to another.  So, why would you disable this feature and choose to adjust the volume levels constantly between songs and albums?  Are you doing so because this increases the dynamic range?

Via the Tidal app, click heart icon at bottom right, then click gear wheel icon at upper right.  New page lists loudness normalization under heading for playback.  Disable the function.

I was not aware there was loudness normalization setting on TIDAL.  Not sure where to find this.  Please let me know how to do this.

When I first began streaming TIDAL I tried streaming it wirelessly via my Apple TV.  This is what TIDAL diagrams on their website.  However, my signal kept breaking up and I solved this problem by hard wiring using  CAD6 from the modem in my family room to my Apple TV and from the Apple TV to port in the back of my ARCAM.

When you stream Tidal, you have to choose setting to fixed or variable signal and computer decode or DAC direct. I would do fixed and external DAC decode (assume you have a good DAC and pre-amp). I like Oppo 105D Tidal app. It allows me to browse Tidal using iPad. skip cable. Also I like direct link of internet and no Wifi. Oppo 205 delete the Tidal app so i have to add a PC to stream Tidal. Less is always better to improve SQ.

A simple reminder to turn off the “loudness normalization” button in the Tidal app when performing a direct comparison of Tidal to your cd playback.  Otherwise your results are automatically skewed.

I agree with junzhang10.  I rarely listen to CD’s anymore since having TIDAL.  Can’t hear much difference.  Maybe that’s because I hard wired everything.

Clear clear think,

i have ave been told vinyl loses so much detail.  I think CD’s sound so much detail.  I like the crisp highs like cymbals.  Wonder the same about tube amps.  However, they do sound warm.