"...with the ability to drive long cables also came the ability to obviate the artifact of the cable itself- so the length and cost of the cable has no bearing on the sound of the system".
Ralph, Are you suggesting that Atmasphere owners could sell off those hi-end cables and run down to Radio Shack or Target for suitable replacements? No difference - they all sound the same? |
Do be honest, I know of an guy who has Atmasphere preamp and amps. He compared balanced interconnects made by Mogami, I think, and a high end cable manufacturer. He said the latter sounded better to him and bought the high end cable at a considerable cost. I have a hard time believing that with Atmasphere electronics, interconnects don't change the sound. I heard differences in interconnect sound in fully balanced system, although not Atmasphere.
For some people, having your equipment rack next to the listening seat may not be practical and may actually affect the sound from all the reflections from the rack next to you.
I still think a remote properly done will not affect the sound. Why would Atmasphere, or any other high end preamp desingers, have done it with the MP1 if this was not the case? |
The standard for balanced line is the output of the device driving the cable should be able to drive 600 ohms or less (in the case of microphones) without degradation (this calls for a fairly low output impedance BTW). If the cable is terminated at the input of the amp with a 600 ohm load, then you will hear no difference between a high end cable and a cheap one, ours, or one from Radio Shack. I saw this demonstrated in spades between our cable (which is Mogami) and a cable that retails for $1000/foot. The customer went back and forth between the cable over a period of 2 weeks until he realized that not only could he not hear any difference, but that the sale of the high end cables got him back most of the cost of his preamp (the cables were 24 feet long). He was ecstatic.
If the termination is not installed, then cable differences appear. Its a simple fact that most high end preamps have a problem driving 600 ohms and so the thought of such a termination 99 44/100% of the time is out of the question. But if it can be done, there will be no artifact of any cable. Now when we introduced the MP-1 back in 1989, it was the first balanced line preamp made. We figured everyone else would support the 600 ohm standard; boy were we wrong!
We installed the remote because people ask for it. Engineering one that does not affect the sound (and also fits in the unit so older preamps can be also updated) was/is the yardstick. Most of the remotes we saw at the time did cause some sort of artifact; I remember one very well-known tube preamp manufacturer that offered their first remote where the degradation was enough that dealers stocked up on the previous model to get away from the remote.
As an audiophile I am one of those that will not sacrifice the sound due to a remote. It does seem like I am the minority these days... |
Deal breaker for sure.
I must ask ... can't they just standardize the loudness levels someday? |
07-26-11: Atmasphere
The standard for balanced line is the output of the device driving the cable should be able to drive 600 ohms or less (in the case of microphones) without degradation (this calls for a fairly low output impedance BTW). If the cable is terminated at the input of the amp with a 600 ohm load, then you will hear no difference between a high end cable and a cheap one, ours, or one from Radio Shack.... If the termination is not installed, then cable differences appear. Ralph, I'd be interested in an explanation of why the termination is necessary. Why wouldn't simply driving the balanced cable with a low impedance driver be sufficient? Obviously less current would flow through the cable if the termination is not present, but I'm not sure why that would make a difference. On an unrelated note, congrats on your re-done website. Looks great! Dracule -- in my case, not having a remote would not be a deal-breaker. I have one at present, but I could easily live without it, as I did for many years in the past. Best regards, -- Al |
Hi Al, If you put a 600 ohm resistance across a cable, which has capacitive, inductive and resistive aspects, the outcome is that the 600 ohm resistance becomes the primary aspect of what you are driving. The other things (which normally affect a cable when the amp input impedance is 100K or higher) get 'swamped out'.
This is how all high fidelity recordings are possible, BTW. If you have any recordings from the 1950s, what we have is a recording that sounds better the better you make your system. (Some people think that the best recordings were made in the 1950s). How did they do this without high-end cables? How could they run microphone signals over 200 feet and have them sound anything like HiFi over such a distance? The answer is that they used a low impedance termination on the line.
For example, I have a set of Neumann U-67 microphones. They use a small tube preamp to take the signal from the condenser element. This preamp is only a single triode gain stage- so its output impedance is high. But it drives an output transformer that is set to 150 ohms at its output. So many mic inputs on mixers and tape machines have a low input impedance like this. It allows the mic to drive *stupidly long* cables without any degradation at all, and the cost of the cable is kept to a minimum.
Now maybe I'm a little odd this way, but it seems to me that a system that would allow one to ditch expensive cables in favor of even better sound would be a good thing.
Mind you- if the terminations are not there, the 'better sound' I mentioned could well be lost to cable interaction. |
Thanks, Ralph. That all makes sense, as I see it. I would add, though, that the values of those cable parameters, and their effects, will decrease as length decreases. I would therefore expect that in the case of a short cable, say a few feet long, and if the cable is reasonably well designed and is driven from a low impedance balanced output, that those effects would be insignificant both with and without the termination.
Best regards,
-- Al |
|
Dracule1, we investigated relay-operated volume controls and spent a lot of money in the process. They are quite good but a good quality rotary switch sounds better...
Al, one *would* think that the shorter the cable the better, but even in the case of 1 meter, I have seen similar benefits. The example I am thinking of is the tone arm cable, which is often only 1 meter (many audiophiles will go through quite a bit of effort and money finding the 'right' phono cable...). Since all cartridges are balanced sources, its possible to run the phono balanced to the preamp. If you are using a LOMC and have some sort of loading for it at the input of the preamp, the result is that you have a low-impedance balanced line and the cable will have no artifact. So an inexpensive cable in this situation will keep up with the most expensive with ease, as long as the cable is built right, which really has little to do with the cost.
Many people don't realize that LOMC cartridges, while having low voltage output, can have rather high current outputs, thus their ability to drive a 100 ohm resistor and the like. |
Ralph and Al,
After being in and out of this business for 32 years, I don't often learn much new.... I appreciate you guys.
Thanks for the education.... again.
Tim |
Remote? No way.
I pay for best performance, not for comfort. |
Syntax, so you rather drive a NASCAR stock race car as a daily driver than a Lexus? :-) |
Dracule1,
Your analogy does`nt apply. As a daily driver the Lexus would in fact be the "better performer". It we move to the race track the race car has the better performance.
I honestly don`t know if a well designed remote degrades sound at the very highest level of performance or not. It`s interesting that many of the ultra level; cost no object preamps avoid the remote control.
As in all things regarding audio, it ultimately becomes a matter of personal choice and compromise. |
I would therefore expect that in the case of a short cable, say a few feet long, and if the cable is reasonably well designed and is driven from a low impedance balanced output, that those effects would be insignificant both with and without the termination. The cable-related artifact that a termination resistor improves are its transmission-line effects, which I feel are certainly insignificant at the lengths used in a home interconnect . . . any significant reactances (overwhelmingly capacitance) can be negated simply by a low source impedance. However, there are four ways I can see in which the application of a 600 ohm terminating resistor can make an audible difference: - Damping the ringing of a line-output transformer (these being very rare in consumer equipment, and don't categorically require damping resistors) - Improving the noise rejection with line inputs, outputs, or cables that have somewhat mismatched impedances (increasing the common-mode impedance has the same effect) - altering the bass response of a capacitively-coupled output stage - increasing the distortion of an active balanced output stage (typically equivalent to an unbalanced output driving a 300 ohm load) It has always seemed to me that the second two situations are far more likely to occur than the first two. |
Thanks, Kirk. Good points, of course. Re the two adverse situations you indicated as being most likely to occur when a 600 ohm load is used, those reading this should note Ralph's (Atmasphere's) reference to the need to be able to drive 600 ohms "without degradation." In other threads he has made clear that "without degradation" includes having insignificant effects on frequency response and distortion, a condition which will not be met by many (and I suspect most) preamps and source components.
Tim (Timlub), thanks for your kind comments.
Best regards,
-- Al |
Charles1dad, I thought it was a good analogy because performance in car parlance has do with horse power, handling, top speed/acceleration which are analogous to power output, dynamics, and frequency extension in audiophile terms. Soft pillowy quiet ride and leather interior etc of Lexus sedan are all conveniences like a remote. We, at least me, listen to music almost every day so the daily driver analogy applies. But we are digressing from the original point of my thread. |
Regasrding XLRs: I've used balanced cables in pro audio for decades...I've found that better xlr cables really do sound better (surprise), and recently bought a pair of Mogami/Neutrik "Gold" ICs to connect my Kavent balanced preamp to my Forte' Model 55 amp, replacing some no name brand of ICs that came with the preamp...man...the Mogamis SUCKED with tizzy, harsh treble, weird harmonic energy...bleah...sounded so bad I couldn't tolerate an interminable break-in period and replaced them A'quest Diamondbacks that sounded great immediately (and even better after some break-in). This was surprising in that I've never had such a dramatic case of cable failure. |
A volume remote is a must have convenience for me. |
