Is going from a Ortofon Candenza Black to a Ortofon Winfield a lateral move?

Dear @bfoura : "" e but to me the specs look pretty similar...""

I don’t know how you can " evaluate " two cartridges with only specs.

Both cartridges are way different and the Windfeld is superior and if you like about specs tha Winfeld has way better FR but instead Shibata stylus the Windfeld comes with the Replicant 100 stylus that Ortofon reserves for the top models as the Anna or the A95.

Now, along the Windfeld you need that the headshell wires be way better than the stock ones and if you can invest in a tonearm internal re-wiring and maybe a new mat and clamp for the TT. Music and the Windfeld deserves that kind of effort/investment..

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

It's Windfeld, not "Winfield". It is significantly better if your ancillary equipment are up to the task. You also failed to specify if it is the original version or the newer Ti. Beware of gray market sellers selling old stock Windfelds (original version). 
Having tried several Ortofon cartridges up and down the line, I think they are nice but unexciting. They tend to smooth off the rough edges at the expense of inner detail. You can do a lot worse and a lot better. It all depends upon your system set-up and I notice yours is not specified in your profile. 

Ok, thanks for the spelling correction on the Windfeld, or "PW" as it is inscribed on the cart. I'm still learning on interpreting the specs but they look fairly similar to me. However, as @rauliruegas noted, the PW comes with the Replicant Stylus that distinguishes itself from the Cadenza Black. 

@fsonicsmith I initially had the same impression with the Cadenza Black, as you have with Ortofons, but discovered a step up transformer brought the Cadenza to another level I had never heard before. And, I suspect the step up I'm using (Musical Fidelity bb-1) is not the ideal match for the Cadenza but still brought more life to this cart than my C48 preamp or Herron phono tube amp can deliver on it's own. So, now I'm on the hunt for a suitable and reasonably priced SUT. 

My turntable is a Technics 1200G with a achromat mat (I've also updated my system set up in my profile). I'm not sure if this is my forever table and hesitant about investing the dollars in a tonearm rewire. I'd rather just invest in a step up table in the future.

The version I'm looking at is the one previous to the TI. I understand they're built very similar except with a titanium body.

One point re: stylus profile- the best and most advanced need more care to acheive full potential. Does this mean a more easy-going profile is useless? Depends on the user...;)

I own both a Cadenza Black and a Windfeld (the original).  There is no comparison.  The Windfeld is a significantly superior transducer.  This is a good example of why reading specifications is not enough.  We need our ears.  The Windfeld is a top level cartridge regardless of price.

Thats first hand experience feedback, thanks. Are you using a phono preamp or set up transformer for the carts? And, which model? 

Actually both:  Phono preamp is a Conrad Johnson TEA 1 series III, which has a built in SUT.  Stand alone SUTs include a Bob's Devices Sky 10 very warm (nice), and a Consolidated Audio Silver, which is phenomenal.

Good to know @billstevenson. I have a Herron tube phono preamp that I can get 64 or 69db gain depending on which tube compliment I use. The Cadeza Black sounded best ever with the 69 db gain but I pulled out an old Musical Fidelity bb-1 active step up and the CB sounded even better using it through the MM stage of the Herron. Even sounds really good through the MM stage of my C48 preamp too. So, I ordered a Rothwell MCL step up and think that will be a better load match with the Cadenza Black. Now, you really have me thinking what kind of sonic improvement I can get with the Windfeld 🤔. 

befoura I also have a Cadenza Black after considering a Windfeld ti.  I am a big fan of Ortofon since my Jubilee served me well for years.  I am using it with a vector 4 tonearm, basis 2200 sig and Allnic H3000 phono pre.  

The CB sounds great in my system, as good or better than a Transfiguration Proteus I used previously.

The Windfeld might be my next cartridge but I worry if it is as revealing as the CB.  I listen to mostly rock music.

What say you billstevenson?

@pops that’s a nice table set up you have! I too listen to mostly rock genre music and now getting into jazz so I would also like @billstevenson’s opine on how the Windfeld handles this type of music. 

Thanks bfoura, you have a nice front end as well!

I have an original Winfield, and like it. It does not glorify records...it tells it like it is. Good recordings are fabulous with great depth, air, etc....( even monos sound very good). Poorly recorded discs will sound just that way. Tracks everything without distress.

I am a user of Ortofon Cartridges for a couple of years.
I am happily making my way up the ladder of Ortofon Models.
 
My main stimulant to adopt Ortofon Cartridges was from hearing a Ortofon Vienna as a standard build and then at a later date it had received a modified / Upgrade Build, that incorporated new generation modern Ortofon Technology used in later generation MC's.
The Vienna and Jubilee share similar technology, even though both having a different Spec.
They are early produced models that are using Neodymium Magnets, WRD and Boron.
These technologies are the cornerstone of the Ortofon Sound, that have been successfully built upon.  

Since my ownership of a Kontrapunkt B Ortofon Cartridge that was  modified / rebuilt and has used modern Ortofon MC technology on the build.

The above Cartridges have been A/B Compared, the K'B does not match the Vienna.
The Standard Vienna, from recollection 'when rebuilt', seemed to have a
perceived improvement when I auditioned it.
It was this audition that prompted the decision to rebuild the K'B.

The rebuilt K'B when listened to with the rebuilt Vienna is a more desirable comparison, with the Vienna being noticeably better.

I know of some with the modified/rebuilt older generation Ortofon Cartridges that have rcently began to use Cadenza's in their system, as a additional Cartridge.
Due to the Pandemic and the imposed restrictions, I am yet to audition
a Cadenza in comparison to a Older Generation Cartridge.

Note: all the above comparisons, have taken place on the same TT, Tonearm and Head Shell Model, On a system that is familiar, but not owned.  

I myself have taken this a little further and have purchased a Cadenza Black because of the Latest Technology and Aucurum Wire.
I see this as a Coil Material that will help with producing a SQ I am impressed by.
The C'B is to be modified / rebuilt when the Pandemic recedes.

The C'B and Windfeld are both produced from 2008.
They share similar Materials in their construction.
They Share Neodymium Magnets , Aucurum Wire, WRD and a
Boron Cantilever, 

The C'B and Windfeld have a Different Stylus and the Windfeld has the FSE Technology on board.
How much impact the FSE Technology when combined with the other technology used on a SQ is a unknown to me, and I have no recollection of seeing it discuused.

A research will show there are Stylus available that will be a extremely close match to a Replicant 100 and a C'B could be retipped with a close match stylus.
FG Stylus might be a good place to start, as the Cadenza Bronze are being seen with FG retips.

The Windfeld Ti is produced from 2017 and has a body produced from a New Material Technology Body which is claimed to offer
( Improved Vibration Control )

I am sure there are to be differences perceived for the SQ of  each Cartridge when compared, that is for sure.

I look forward to the reports on the perceived differences, if the OP chooses to take on the Windfeld. 
   

  

I had originally a new Ortofon Jubilee and had issues with a slighly skew cantilever, which made me, upon its accepted replacement, move 'up' to the then original new PW, the one we seem to be talking about here, eh? 😉 

I NEVER managed to warm up to this one, and really not for lack of trying, sorry. 🙏 

And BTW, the original Peer Windfeld does NOT have the more advanced Replicant 100 stylus! It has a Shibata stylus, just like the Candenza Black, as well it neither has the titanium body either! 
I'm currently running my own Cadenza Black, also have the Quintet Black S by the way. Aquired both after selling my 'boring' PW... 😏 

So your question about their differences appears rather justified to me, despite some comments to the contrary! 

I also practically always use(ed) my SUT with any of them, a 1:20 Fidelity Research (its a passive item). 

So what's the difference between the old PW and the current Cadenza Black? 

Next to NOTHING in my experience, and I'm not at all nostalgically looking back at all to the original PW.
It was jolly bland in my system (look it up in my profile) and the Cadenza is without question doing the better job, for me. Amen

The PW Ti is a different item all together, not even a need to elaborate, however it has also a lower output then the Cadenza Black and old PW cartridge, which could be an issue? 

With my 1:20 SUT I'm fine by using the 60db ML 326S Phono board setting, plus a 6db boost from the 18db total boost available by this ML 326S preamp. So 66db is right on. 

My advise: stick with the Cadenza Black, unless you intend to spend major $$$ on the PW Ti, but make sure your own system will be up to showing any improvement!
See Raul's comment on that subject. 
M. 🇿🇦 

@stringreen To my ears the CB does the same thing. To me the CB is quite revealing. Sometimes it’s disappointing to hear favorite albums from the past sound mediocre. But, well recorded albums sound fabulous when everything is set up to help the CB perform at its best. I had this experience with The Cars, “Candy O”this week. I hadn’t listen to that album in years but man, sounded great. The drum fills really popped!
As @pindac noted the specs on the CB and the Windfeld are pretty close and can be challenging for us still learning how to identify build and performance differences on whether to pursue a cart without being able to hear it first. So, I guess the stylus and the FSE technology are what elevate the Windfeld above the CB? 

As the Windfeld PW and the Cadenza Range were both released for sale in 2008.
They were both able to receive the latest technology on offer from Ortofon.

As the Windfeld is also referred to as a PW, this is to identify it as being a Tribute to the legacy of Per Windfeld' whose work at Ortofon included the Rhomann,  Kontrapunk, Jubilee and I would assume the Vienna .

As said before the Technologies that are used by Ortofon today,
were 'pioneered in some of the above MC's.

The 2008 Windfeld was fully loaded, and the Cadenza Range were given selected technology depending on which model.

If it helps, I have had SUT's in other systems and been quite impressed, I have been fortunate to have been able to hear some of these in my system.
I have formed the view that a SUT not only interfaces with a Cartridge but also with a System.
A SUT that impresses in one system with another Cartridge does always reciprocate in another system with a different cartridge.

The SUT that has really shone in my system with my rebuilt Ortofon K'B is a Cinemag 1251 Transformer bases SUT which I had commission built for myself. 
This SUT has also delivered in one other system, and made a very positive impression on the other listeners.
Covid put a stop to this SUT being used at other systems.
 
The Cinemag 1251 would be quite similar to a Bob's Devices design.

   

Seems SUT require careful matching to with the cart and the system. Problem is right now affordable ones are hard to find. For starters I settled on the Rothwell MCL. These are sold out right now at Music Direct. I was able to buy the last one available through BritAudio. My CB just comes more alive using it through my old Musical Fidelity bb-1. I can’t find any specs on it. It’s battery powered, so it’s active, right?  Seems like Ortofon SUT’s were made for carts like the Cadenza line and above but again those are hard to find and don’t want to buy one from Japan through eBay. Too much of a hassle to return, etc. if there an issue with it. 

Sorry a small error occurred.
The phono board setting by using my 1:20 SUT is of course set at 40db (and 49k ohm) as is common for most MM Cartridge, and zero added capacitance loading + the added 6db from the ML 326S pre amp. 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

Very interesting.  I just looked at my PW, which is the older version, under my Wild Heerbrugg microscope to confirm that it has a Replicant or line contact type stylus.  I compared it with both my 2M Black and Cadenza Black, to verify that they have Shibata stylii.  Just wanted to calibrate my eyeballs and make sure that I was looking at a non-Shibata geometric shape.  So I am not quite sure what to make of Michelle's PW with a Shibata stylus.  Maybe there was a running change somewhere along the line?  I don't know.  I did buy mine directly from Ortofon.  For the record it should also be stated that Ortofon is consistent throughout their line.  There has always been a natural and consistent progress in terms of sound quality as you move up through the line, as well as very consistent performance unit to unit. They have always displayed excellent quality control in my experience going back to my college days when I worked in HiFi retail for most of the 1970s. I can state that both my Cadenza Black and Windfeld are very neutral cartridges.  The difference between them, and it is quite noticeable to me, is that the latter has greater clarity, depth, and a more detailed presentation.  To answer other questions in this thread, I listen to mostly jazz and some classical, but really think that any genre, at least for modern recordings, would reveal these differences.
Bill 

Thanks @billstevenson. Not knowing much about the replicant styli, I did a google search and found some info. As with anything more sophisticated in engineering and design, looks like more attention to detail is needed with this types of stylus. That said, is the replicant stylus significantly more difficult to dial in compared to shibatas? 

Dear @bfoura :  I posted that in cartridges specs could not really gives the true to make a comparison in between 2 cartridges, latter on you posted:

"  @stringreen To my ears the CB does the same thing..."

that's almost the same because cartridge quality characteristics through listen it are graded, have different quality levels. So you can't make a true comparison in between : there are " levels " and " levels " with same characteristics of sound.

My first Ortofon cartridges  was the really vintage MC10 MK2, followed by the MC30, MC2000, MC3000, MC3000MK2, MC5000, MC7500, Jubilee, etc, etc and I had the opportunity to listen in my system the Windfeld, MCA95 and other models and I know that when Ortofon designed and build a cartridge to commemoration something they puts additional effort in all the whole design and excecution to the design as: tigther tolerances, hand selected parts, deep tests including cartridge voicing and the Windfeld was an is one of those cartridges.

The W belongs to a different league than the CB that's just a catalogue model, a good one but that's all.

There is no problñem to make the W cartridge set up you but what is really important is that your room/system can have the quality and resolution need it to honor the W quality performance levels.
If you have any single doubt of any system chain link that is not up to the task my opinion is that stay with the CB.

R.

bfoura   "the replicant stylus significantly more difficult to dial in compared to shibatas?"
Personally I find the shibata the most difficult to optimally set up of all types.  The Replicant is not too bad actually.

Well, I am a bit confused now, about the original Peer Windfeld's stylus... to say the least. 
I'm going back with this purchase well past 10 years, and unfortunately have not bothered to keep a documented spec. 
Looking at the presently posted specs by Ortofon I notice the item is now called 'MC Windfeld' (not 'Peer Windfeld') - to distinguish it from the 'Windfeld Ti', no doubt. 

And sure, to behold, it quotes (now?) a replicant 100 stylus, no question! 

For all I can recall, a 'Replicant' stylus was not even known back in ~ 2008! 
I'm open to be corrected. 

Also, I recall some lengthy heavy critiques being posted about the PW then, in short - boring presentation at a very high price - (and there was no Ti for a long while to come).
It all had resonated with my own listening experience. 

So many times during my ownership and minor system changes, i went back and re-tried this cartridge and never obtained a different result. EVER! 

I finally had it send back to be tested by the dealer and found 'working ok' on his different set-up, using a Lynn LP12 etc. 

Maybe the stylus/spec WAS changed during some time back?!? 🤔 

As I said, only to my knowing, this replicant 100 stylus came about only with the event of the A95 cartridge, and well after the creation of the early/original and brand new, the only top Ortofon cartridge, PW. 
The packaging alone something really way out, over the top - off the wall. I say. 

I'm open to corretion as I said - am I really getting that old?!? 🤔 
Baffled. 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

Hi, the Replicant 100 stylus has a longer history than you think. I'm not sure, but I believe it was introduced with the MC 3000 mk2, back in the early 90's. It's a rather complex profile not unlike the Gyger FG1 (and vdHul S1) and usually reserved for their top models, like A90, A95, MC Anna and yes, both Windfeld models. The Cadenza has a Shibata profile stylus on boron cantilever (the Cadenza Bronze has a Replicant 100 on an aluminum cantilever), which will certainly give a different presentation. The Windfeld has Aururum coils (gold plated 8N copper), while the Cadenza Black coil material is not specified (the Bronze does have Aucurum, but based on 6N copper). Within the Cadenza series the main specs (output voltage and internal impedance) of the Black are closest to the Windfeld.

So where does that leave you? Some folks seem to believe that the color scheme used with standard production series like Cadenza give some clues to the voicing within the basic design parameters. The colour Bronze suggests a voicing tailored towards a somewhat darker, warmer sound. Black seems to aim at a more neutral presentation. I haven't heard either, so I cannot comment if that's correct. But based on my experience with other Ortofon models, the best sound is reserved for the 'heritage' models, to which the Windfeld belongs. So I would be surprised if it doesn't represent a clear step up compared to the Cadenza.

Dear friends : As I stated and other gentlemans did it ( @billstevenson @edgewear ) the Windfeld came from 2008 with the Replicant 100 stylus shape:

https://www.ortofon.com/mc-windfeld-p-486-n-4873


and yes as edgewear posted the MC3000MK2 ( that I own. ) was the first cartridge with the Replicant 100.

Other advantage of the Windfeld over other Ortofon cartridges is that has a way high tracking abilities that permits it to pick-up more and with better quality recorded information in a good set up.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTION,
R.

Wow, ok - now im beat, in more than one way.

BTW, in Raul’s cartridge ratings I’d have given this one a kindly 60—61.
He never rated that one either. Why? 🤔

I’m still baffled why my Cadenza Black sounds ’more normal’ than this super duper original Peer Windfeld ever did?!?
I’d rate the CB at 63+.

Some MMs I'd rate this high too, with a slight edge for timbre presentation. 

So did I trade in a diamond (PW), for a more middling gem-stone (CB) ?

And what about similar findings like my own, posted on the web at the time?

Lastly why was it needed to upgrade this PW to a PW Ti, having A90, A95, Anna, etc. ?!? 🤔 This, if it is such a top performer?

It is hard to discard some year old long ongoing frustrations with such an item, I admit, as just a weird prejudice? 

The original PW is close to CB in weight (a little heavier I recall), same body construction, same tracking force (VTF), 'same' (±) output voltage - and as for tracking ability... I even had some issues with sibilants, some more than I've now with my CB...😏

Finally I've had listened to some better presentations of MCs in my system than my now Quintet S and Cadenza Black (Transfiguration Orpheus, and some better Lyras come to mind), yet the PW just was reticent to all tweaking and adjustments.

And didn’t I try! As I had a hard time to accept this to be the case, it remained sort of ’flat’ / somehow harmonically restricted.

So it’s good to know others had more luck than I had.

Water under the bridge, eh.
😝
Michélle 🇿🇦

Just added a Cadenza Black on my Feickert Woodpecker with a Kuzma Stogi 12 w VTA tower. Running it through an Icon Ps1 Mkii phono stage w 100 ohms and 72 db. Still fiddling w adjustments and some cable changes but I think it's going to be really nice.