That’s all well founded lewm.... and I am making measurements with my reliable instrument, my ears..... which is what it is all about isn’t it? I had the wife listen to the S&H’s and some SSW 1975 Reflectors I have a small stock of and we agreed completely on what we heard. The S&H get the nod on vocals but the Reflectors simply play more music with greater detail, especially bottom end bass with stringed instruments such as bass fiddle.. Since I can't get any more S&H’s I ordered the last matched pair of 1975 SSW Reflectors my source had and a couple of 1977 Rockets as well. Should be well set now, at least until we finalize the digital cable from the streamer to the DAC.
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I'm using those very same S&H tubes in my Manley Steelhead. And this will killya: They were given to me by a friend who converted to solid state. Don't ask me if I like them, because I am biased to love them, now that you told me how much they could be worth. You wrote, "Perhaps you are biased in your listening, I'm not, very engineer based analytical." What about this exchange of ideas would support that idea? It's a scientific fact that we as humans harbor subconscious biases that affect what we see and hear, no matter how hard we may try to be neutral or "analytical". Spending big bucks on a tube would tend to enforce a very conscious bias in favor of that tube. This is why science that reports human behavior or relies upon it always has to include enough subjects to ameliorate the bias effect and preferably be conducted in a blinded or double-blinded fashion. I am sure you know this, and that is all I was trying to say. You could be analytical as a single observer, if you are making measurements with a reliable instrument. But since this is all about opinions, there is no avoiding bias. |
For all my tube equipment, I always purchase two identical sets of tubes. One set is for every day use and one set is used as a reference. Over a period of time audio neurosis sets in and I begin to doubt the tube’s performance/lifespan. That is when in pull out my reference set and compare them to the everyday set. If all is good, I merely put the old set back in and enjoy until Audio neurosis strikes again. |
That's for sharing that lewm... is that really true, my tubes are aging when I use them? when the heaters run? Since "in many cases" why don't you find me some inexpensive tubes that outperform Siemens & Halske Cca 6922 grey plates circa 1962 or 1975 SSW 6N23P Reflectors. I'll get out the soldering gun I've had for 40 years and ask it if I know how to use it, the iron I used 60 years ago is long gone. The Heathkit multimeter I built 55 years ago finally gave up, who would think you could buy one for $14 bucks and have it delivered tomorrow. I don't agree with you on caps over tubes in my system and my wife does concur with my findings. Perhaps you are biased in your listening, I'm not, very engineer based analytical. What works for you may not be for everyone. |
You do realize that all tubes are aging during every minute that you are using them, do you not? So, you can pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for tubes that may sound wonderful on day one. That is a best case scenario, because in many cases inexpensive tubes will sound better than these rare NOS tubes that cost a great deal of money. But let’s assume that The expensive tube does sound great. From that moment forward it is decaying. Eventually your investment will fizzle out. You can get much more bang for the buck, if you learn how to solder, and how to read a schematic, and upgrade coupling capacitors for example in your gear. That sort of change is permanent and never goes away. Capacitors make a far larger difference to overall sound quality than do tubes. Furthermore, when you do pay big bucks for a tube and install it, you are then very biased toward hearing an improvement. None of us is free from that listener bias. You have spent the money, so it must’ve done a lot of good. Get your wife or someone who doesn’t know what you did to have a listen, before you get wild over a boutique vacuum tube. |
@vegasears I hear you but you can only demo so many allegedly "better" pre-amps and amplifiers at very significant cost levels, and watch dealers leave with the tail between the proverbial legs before you decide maybe expensive NOS tubes are a pretty good way to go. Some vintage gear just simply kicks axx when in a well matched system. Last demo pre was an Audio Research LS 27 and tube guys just don’t or won’t haul 70 pound amps in here anymore for a room full of guys to agree the SS amps were better tonally and detail wise. I just installed half my remaining NOS Siemens and Halske Cca 6922 grey plates (1962 issue). I see a pair for sale at $2K. I used to buy them for $40 each.... maybe 10 years ago I sold some for $200 each.. I should have kept them. Replacing a vintage pre with a new $16K (or more) unit is not a solution to not buying NOS tubes. |
I have a lot of NOS tubes, in baggies, by type. I use them as replacement for Gold Lions reissues that fail. I keep waiting but none of the 12's will fail. I quit buying NOS Tubes maybe 15 years ago. Price vs. Performance became an issue as the product became more and more scarce and costly. Looking back, I was buying NOS tubes to make gear sound better so, I just started buying better gear LOL. |
Most often, these days, the vendor himself did not own the tube from "new", meaning he did not buy it from one of the old time businesses like Radio Shack or Heathkit that once had brick and mortar stores and sold truly new tubes over the counter. So the seller only knows that the tube looks new and has a proper box to go with it. That is why I would value sellers that have their own high quality test equipment and are willing to warrant that a tube tests within new specifications. There are a few out there. But how did this get into a discussion of fraud in the tube business? I thought we were talking about the impulse to tube roll. |
You will most likely not be able to consistently tell a used tube from new with a simple emissions tube tester. Shorts yes and that is about it. If you buy a tube tester buy a true transconductance tester. Many Dynamic Mutual Conductance testers only test for transconductance on some tubes (B7K 707 for example). It is also true that suitcase testers do not test most power tubes are real world levels and as such they do give these tubes a true test. I have found that gm testers like Hickok and Triplett do a fine job on everything but power tubes. |
All the Tubes apart from one, I have purchased over the past 2 Years have been purchased as NOS Tubes with close to the manufactures measurements being presented by the Vendor. I have purchased under a agreement they are tested when received at my end, and can be returned if the Tubes do not measure to a acceptable standard on a friends AVO Test Machine. I have had to return Valves due to low measurements and the offered exchange Valves also showed low measurements. This was the Vendors proposal as a resolve before a refund was made. I am fortunate to have used Vendors who are willing to honour such prior made agreements. This purchase arrangement has been put in place for ECC83, E88CC and 6SN7, with the ECC83 being the Valve that has been the one needing replacements and a refund. I bought a Early 60's E88CC from Japan (no return) and another from Germany (return arranged) about Six Months Later, at about 40% of the going rate for a matched pair, both measured close to the Manufacturers Guide, so this was a Punt that worked out as the Japan Valve was very cheap and was added to a package that was being produced for export by a Buying Service For the Buyer the Market does demand an attitude of Caveat Emptor. |
Martin! Travelshooter! It's been too long. Nice to see your setup, I would love to hear your system, south of Miami Beach correct? I sold my boat in Dania Beach, no plans to go down now. I've been 'off' of photography for a while, got back to my audio system, added a very cool TT with 3 arms, shown here https://www.ebay.com/itm/133640511355 I've been meaning to take some decent photos and add them here, just lazy. |
Are you talking about tubes as investments or tubes as electronic devices that are needed for music amplification? As one who has been doing this for more than 45 years, I disagree that a tube tester is a requirement. Second, I especially disagree that a cheap tube tester is a requirement. If a tube has an internal short, you will know it immediately without testing it formally. You will throw that tube away. If the tube is wearing such that it affects sound quality, your ears will tell you that. If you have a voltmeter, you can test a tube in the chassis by measuring its associated voltages. A really good and therefore expensive tube tester is nice to own, because it gives you something to play with. However, even the common expensive tube testers cannot test a tube at the voltages and currents that usually exist in functioning equipment. Therefore, you would get a false impression of the performance of the tube in circuit. For most of us, it is best to just Use your ears. To acquire a tube tester that can actually test tubes under real world conditions will cost you well over $1000, more like $2000. |
Elliott... you have a good point about the tube tester. There used to be one at a repair shop in Miami but he closed many years ago and I have not been able to find anyone with one. I use 6DJ8/6922 tubes. About 15 or so years ago I rolled everything I could get my hands on from all over the world. Bugle Boys/Amperex/Valvo/Chinese 6DJ8s/Telefunkens and many more. Discovered that the Siemens and Halske Cca 6922 Grey Plates round and D getters from the later 50’s and early 60’s were the best in my system, except for a stray set of 1958 Valvo Pinched Waist 6922 Cca tubes. Found a source in Germany and stocked up on the Siemens... they were about $40 each back then. Sold off a bunch at $200 each and still have a couple I just found in the back of the closet. I see someone trying to sell a matched pair @ $2000. Probably try the ones I have today. Currently I’m using 1975 6N23P SSW Russian Reflectors I get from a lady in the Ukraine and have watched them double and a half in the last few years. Have a couple of Russian Rockets in the closet too I didn’t like as much as the Reflectors. Generally I’ll just run them until the bass or highs start to deteriorate and then replace them. I really like the tester idea.. want to keep my 30 year old pre-amp going as long as possible. https://www.martindareff.com/Other/HDR-Treated-Images/i-ZmLg23s/A |
@testpilot i do consider people may not be native english speakers, when appropriate... but not in this case though... thus my comment @midareff1 have a little pride man... just look at your post title and initial post ... when i type something, i re-read it, make sure people understand and there are no glaring omissions or misspellings... caps aside... or maybe lay off the booze when you are posting and asking for others' input here? |
OP, Remember, new ones need break-in. Brent Jesse told me: Leave on for around 60 hours (no signal required), then compare. Are you saying listen to spares of the same brand? I would not bother unless I suspected a problem. If you mean, try different brands, it is fun to satisfy curiosity and learn. I blew one, bought matched pair new 6SN7's for my Cayin, hated them. Tried some old tubes I had in a drawer (I've got a lot of NOS and used), loved em. Brent Jesse let me return and exchange for new matched pairs of those, and they cost less, gave me a refund for the difference, no restocking charge. It's not just the power tubes that can make very audible differences. You can confirm your current choice sounds best, or find something else you might prefer. Cost: nothing but time (after you buy a toy tester). |
Tube Confidence: This is one of the reasons I suggest tube people buy a simple tube tester. Not sophisticated testing, but enough to give confidence in any NEW or USED tube: no short; decent strength; for pairs, essentially same location in the ’good’ area (not likely to cause balance issues). here is a simple one https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sencore-TC136-Tube-Tester-with-Manual-good-condition/143927443123?h... here’s mine https://www.ebay.com/itm/Accurate-Instruments-Tube-Tester-Model-151-with-157-model-manual/2548323165... I have a big Hickock, and gave my friend a big Jackson. As far as shorts and strength, the little one always gives me the same answer. Very lightweight, portable, take to friends house ... make sure you get the manual with tube listing booklet with it. Also, verify it can test your tube types with seller. Mine does not have sockets to test a few types I have run across. |
Why would I resist? Who would I be resisting anyway? Myself? Only if I was a neurotic mess would such a thing even cross my mind. Instead, being of sound mind, I would either get a few out, try them, and keep the best ones, or be happy to have spares, go and do something productive, and forget about it. In fact I don't even have to guess, that is what I have actually done. Not a dozen, they are so far out of my mind I couldn't even tell you how many or what they are. Seriously. Or how many hours are on them. This kind of question has me imagining a guy looking at his belly button in the middle of the night wondering how much lint might be in there. All night long, wondering. Could just go fishing, but can't stop wondering. Maybe go on-line, ask how anyone ever manages to do anything but wonder about their belly-button lint..... I mean really, how do you resist? |
