If NOS pre or power tubes became unavailable altogether, what new tubes would you buy?
Hey tuberollers,
I'm curious to see what happens if there's a gun to your head, or more practically all NOS tubes disappear (dread). What would you do with your line/pre stage and/or power stage?
I have tried 5 different NOS 12AU7s and only 1 new 12AU7 in my preamp section (Cifte, RCA black plates (late 50s), Sylvanias, Baldwin organ tubes, Amperex 70s orange globes, and new Chinese stock Primaluna tubes). In my power section, I have not tried any NOS tubes and 3 types of tubes (stock Chinese Primaluna EL34s, reissue Mullard EL34s, and reissue Gold Lion KT88s).
Side note: I haven't ventured into NOS power tubes because of the cost and availability/scarcity. I need 8 of them!
Without having tried anything else, I would be lost on new or reissue 12AU7s. On the power tube side, I'd be just fine with either the reissue Mullard EL34s or the Gold Lion KT88s.
I have had excellent success with two tube-dealers. McShane Designs for new, mostly Russian and European, knock-offs. Jim really puts the new tubes through a torture test before he ships. He also has a smattering of NOS tubes, but for Russian GL KT-88s, hard to beat. For NOS, Andy Bowman at Vintage Tube Services is also very decent.
Dear @tubed1 : Jadis?, it's curious that you mentioned. When Jadis started in the audio market I had it in my system. Was the old times when Jadis was a not very reliable electronics, many people had trouble with their Jadis.
I don't know if you posted as a reference that today high price units used fancy caps/resistors or named as that price is what makes differences in quality level performance.
Anyway, Jadis does not makes differences for the better when we are comparing it against live MUSIC or SS alternative.
Dear @lewm : Could be obvious that the SS alternative using separate electronics is not the cup of tea and integrated amplifiers " out of question " but I heard from ML its integrated and we can’t say we are hearing an integrated unit instead separated.
I heard too the latest and top Devialet ( this is fully integrated phono to amp. ) and " even " that use digital overall technology I can say is something to listed carefully.
Today that exist a real mature in the SS " land ": mature designers, matured parts, matured design execution, etc, etc. and as Levinson ( I think Vitus and MBL and some other SS proponents as SimAudio. ) the integrated amps is something to " think seriously " about because has a lot of real advantages ( other than lower price. ) in favor of MUSIC quality level performance against separated ones and due to that matured SS industry I don’t see a real drawbacks that can goes against quality level.
Whay am I saying?: SS phono-integrated amps can " catapult " at higher levels never achieved the listen quality of our beloved analog experience.
What do you think about? is it a bad idea?
Btw, I listened the Diavelet in Guillermo's system, he owns the big/top Soundlabs speakers/subs and Magico too. I listened on both.
For crying out loud, @rauliruegas all the poor guy asked for was advice on tube availability. It’s like he walked into the hardware store looking for a couple of lockwashers and you’re trying to sell him a boat. Get off your high horse!
You are off topic Raul. You are clearly trolling this thread. Your answers are off topic and sooo stupidly long they are a good incation of the high opinion you have of yourself. get off your high horse and out of this thread.
@bradf They’re chinese. If in doubt, they’re always chinese.
I use and love vintage tubes everywhere, except my monoblocks’ KT120. So it would be quite a blow to give those up, but I’d have to go with the Rooski tubes (just trying various flavors until I found the right sound per slot) over Czech & Chinese tubes, which I don’t trust at all.
So far as new tubes, I really like the Sophia Electric 6SN7 tubes which I'm sure are Chinese sourced. Only problem is longevity but they are both linear and extended, more preferable to me than any of the NOS types of this tube, pricey however considering.. Another new tube I find superb is the Russian made Tung Sol KT150 it does everything right in my mono amps, certainly better than the Gold Lion KT88s I also have tried.
The new production Mullard branded EL34's are good and I've used them in my Audiomat to great satisfaction. The Psvane EL34PH (only sourced from Grant Fidelity vs. Ebay) however, are outstanding. Their 12AX7 is a very fine hair away from sounding like a NOS early 60's Telefunken. They are pricier than most new production tubes but, less than NOS.
As to my previous comment,
Ebay Psvane tubes are seconds and anyone who has reported reliability issues confessed they ordered through this source. These seconds are dumped on the Chinese market which I don't understand at all since it erodes their image for a quality product. BTW, I have no vested interest in Grant Fidelity but, they insist on better screening.
""" If NOS pre or power tubes became unavailable altogether, what new tubes would you buy? """
my answer and firt post was: NONE, change to SS alternative.
What’s wrong with that, it’s an opinion Real problem is the very high ignorance level of some of you in that critical audio subject. Almost all of you likes to live in the audio dinosaur's century, this is not my fault.
"
Raul's posts are all about Raul " NO, it's all as people like you. The problem is the false audio world where you live, NOT ME.
" sheduled programming ", means Jurassic Park? where not only does not exist cell phones or even the Ford model T but no civilization at all: as I posted: anachronistic.
Even in front of so many facts exist one of you that still is thinking that does not exist the corrupted AHEE that puts you to live in the JP jail that is an open jail where we don't need a key to leave it?
Raul, you're making too much of your opinion in this thread. You may not know Bo but check out his threads, you two remind me much of each other which is to say taking a bulldozer approach in offering your prejudices regarding the reproduction of music playback to the absolute disrepect of other contributors, is this some kind of Alpha dog thing or do you just fail to understand the question of the thread?. Now if this thread was about the differences and virtues between SS and tube amplification or source components then fair game. You are persistent in your obtuse arrogance in not understanding this point that has been brought to your attention too many times, what's the problem man?
To me at least it is nothing more than connecting to the joys of music, playback. Live, well Raul, it's live and I don't need the playback to do that, it can't and never will and the search for that ideal is totally unrelated to enjoying the emotional and intellectual content in music. That's just my opinion.
Raul I have to agree with Tubegroover on this one . Like I said in another post " some people like pleasant distortion " In the US we
have a ice cream store called Baskin Robbins and they have 31 flavors . The best thing about this hobby is you can tailor your sound to your liking by choosing the components of your taste and flavor . You many not agree with other peoples choices but that is ok. You should start another thread just like the other great ones you have started about your journey from tube to SS and have it discussed there . You know I agree with you on many topics what is not proper is the way you are going about it . RC
Dear @tubegroover : "
offering your prejudices regarding the reproduction of music playback to the absolute disrepect of other contributors,.... "
I have not a single prejudices against tubes and this fact and main subject is what you and many other gentlemans just can't understand. You are not looking the whole subject scenario and the source of that scenario.
You dislike to know that your beloved tubes are in fact a litter of electronics for today enjoyment of MUSIC, no ofense to any one. It's just a real fact. I posted here and everywhere:
IT DOES NOT MATTERS WHAT YOU OR ME LIKE IT because this is not the audio subject I'm refering. I'm talking of MUSIC and its today reproduction in a home audio system. Subjectivity is not important but facts.
Almost all of you are angry because your subject reference is your own/self subjectivity ( as the Baskin Robbins example posted here. ) with out not a little/tiny piece of objectivity/facts.
I understand very clear almost all of you high frustration when you read my posts here or elsewhere and from where comes that kind of frustration levels ( that are not against Raul. )?:
that here or elsewhere all of you have not a single fact a single real fact that can prove that everything I posted is totally wrong and that's why insult me in different ways.
You say is almost a misunderstanding from me but please re-read this post and you will " see " that you and me are talking of different subjects. Try to identify my main subject and I'm sure you will understand that "
your obtuse arrogance " that in reality does not exist. I'm not in that way.
"
absolute disrepect of other contributors .. ", ABSOLUTELY NOT, I always have respect for any human been it does not matters that disagree with my explained facts. That's why I never give/gave or post an insult to any gentleman even if he insult me as almost all of you. I know that in reality " you are not talking " but whom is talking is that frustration level generated by ignorance levels. When we learn ignorance levels improves and that's it. I never try to diminish any one of you, ever.
I'm not challenging any one because there is nothing to challenge for, no one has facts to " win " a challenge of that kind. No one.
This peeing match reminds me of the discord over CD vs. LP. I must agree with other posters here, get back to making suggestions for new production tubes contenders. One can argue ad nauseum over the efficacies of tube vs. solid state and I don't believe it will change anyone's mind in the end.
So far as new tubes, I really like the Sophia Electric 6SN7 tubes which
I'm sure are Chinese sourced. Only problem is longevity but they are
both linear and extended
It seems like new production 6SN7's, e.g.; Tung Sol, EH, all have extended highs and no warmth. Regarding the sonics of the Sophia Electric 6SN7, is there an NOS that you could compare it to?
Lowrider so far as lacking warmth, yes this may be true compared to the NOS Sylvanias, Ken Rads and a wonderful pair of National Union that I had in my Supratek years back that to my ears at least had the most enjoyable midrange of them all. That said I find these tubes just sound more natural, certainly a matter of taste but that is more the direction my tastes have evolved. I still like the NOS tubes for sure but those Sophias are my current favorite, especially in my Modwright/Oppo. I have not tried the Psvane CV181, maybe it's time if it's a drop in replacement in the modwright.
and Raul I'm not at all upset with your choices, believe me. The point is that the thread is just not about what you're continuously bringing up, it is about new tubes to replace NOS tubes, that was my main point and that of others but you can't seem to get it. So far as tubes vs SS I wouldn't feel compelled to get involved in such a thread as I've heard superb examples of both and your facts are not mine, sorry.
Thanks, @tubegroover . I looked up the Sophia Electric 6SN7's and they are compared to a VT-231, so that would make them closer in sonics to NOS. The fact that you are using them in your Modwright/Oppo tells me they must sound more enjoyable than the other new production tubes.
Although they are not inexpensive...hope they last longer than NOS 6SN7's.
A cautionary note about the Sophia 6SN7: See the following thread from 2012, in which I and another member both reported that it caused hum problems in our VAC Renaissance amplifiers, which I determined was due to excessive heater-to-cathode leakage.
The heater-to-cathode leakage in my Sophia’s, as measured on my vintage Hickok tube tester, was as low as 3 or 4 megohms on some sections of some of the tubes, and was in the 5 to 10 megohm area on most of the others.
I recall that Ralph (Atmasphere) commented some time ago in another thread that he rejects any tube measuring less than 10 megohms.
Also, I’ll mention that on my Hickok 800a tester all of the vintage 6SN7 tubes I have measure well above 10 megohms, and in many cases are high enough to be unmeasurable.
What I had purchased was a matched quad of Sophia’s "grade A" version of the tube ($100 per tube), with their optional one year warranty ($18 per tube at that time, which I see they’ve increased to $20). To update the history I reported in the other thread, I eventually had Sophia exchange the four tubes for a new matched quad, under the warranty. The replacement tubes worked well for a few months, even though their heater-to-cathode leakage did not measure a great deal better than on the first set. After a few months, though, the replacement tubes developed the same hum problem, and I retired them to my tube collection.
If I had speakers that were significantly less efficient (mine are 97.5 db/1 watt/1 meter), or if I had used the tubes in a different amplifier or other component, it seems quite conceivable that I would not have observed this problem.
Thanks to all who have stayed with the initial question and purpose of the thread. I thought about deleting the thread because of the direction the thread went.
People, at least me, really do run searches on forum threads with the objective of finding answers. Now, if someone searches and finds this thread they will get less answers about new tubes that people like as alternative to the NOS tubes that are expensive and scarce.
@almarg , I remember your issue with the Sophia's and maybe they can't tolerate voltage levels in some amps. Tubegroover is having good results in a low current device; a CDP. Which makes me wonder if the Sophia's would hold up in a single gain stage preamp. Al, although the high sensitivity of your speakers reveal the issue with hum, the specs of these tubes don't lie.
Heater-to-cathode leakage is not a specified parameter in the case of most tubes. For example, that parameter does not appear in the GE datasheet that is linked to in Sophia’s description of their 6SN7. Also, it’s not a voltage issue in this case, because even before they were placed in my amp all or nearly all of the eight tubes I received did not meet the 10 megohm criterion that Atmasphere cited as the minimum he would consider to be acceptable. And their measurements did not change much if at all during the time I was using the tubes in my amp.
What I and the other member reported in the thread I linked to is either a design issue or a quality control issue, albeit one that apparently would not manifest itself in many applications.
Dear @jbhiller : You made an open question and I gave you an answer. This is what I posted in your thread :
""" If NOS pre or power tubes became unavailable altogether, what new tubes would you buy? """
my answer and firt post was: NONE, change to SS alternative.
NONE. What's wrong with?
Anyway and due that my target is not to change any one mind and that I like enjoy MUSIC, it's time to do it.
Btw, I left to all of you something to think about: if some one ask us why we own a home audio system, which could be our kind of answers? maybe:
- I like to listen MUSIC at home. - I'm an audiophile. - I'm a Music's lover -It's my hobby.
and maybe some other similar answers. Now, how is possible that all of us that likes MUSIC some of us just don't care enjoy it listening the nearest way we can to reproduce the live MUSIC experience through our home system audio.
I care seriously about and that's why attend each week to listen live MUSIC. The other premise is that is me who decided each one single link/item in my system's chain, to be nearest to the real MUSIC, NOT the corrupted AHEE.
@almarg , thanks for the additional info. It’s good to know that heater-to-cathode leakage is not influenced by voltage, since I’m considering trying the Sophia’s in my preamp.
Al, although the high sensitivity of your speakers reveal the issue with hum, the specs of these tubes don’t lie.
Specs is the wrong term; I should have stated "measurements" since you knew about Ralph’s criteria in this area. I did look at the GE datasheet and saw that Sophia was comparing their tube to a well known NOS tube’s specs. To be honest, I never heard of heater-to-cathode leakage until your findings.
Thanks, Lowrider. Speaking of terminology, I should be more precise with my own. The number of megohms (millions of ohms) that I referred to as heater-to-cathode leakage is more properly referred to as heater-to-cathode resistance. "Leakage" would more properly refer to the amount of current that would be conducted by that resistance under a given voltage condition.
@don_c55 , No, the question is not trying to get at hypotheticals. It was asking folks who prefer NOS tubes what they would buy from the selection of new tubes. Perhaps, I could've phrased it differently (i.e. What new, non-NOS, tubes do you like the best next to NOS?)
What gives with all of the hostility and argumentativeness? Why take the time to tell people their question is "stupid"? Why try to change the subject of the forum thread? I just don't get it.
For those of us in the hobby who want and enjoy the exchange of information, these types of responses do not do anything meaningful to advance the discussion or create/propel curiosity.
Al you are not alone concerning the hum problem using the Sophia 6sn7 tube and thank you for bringing it up, I should have mentioned my experiences as well. It also happened to me several months after purchase of my first pair. Lowrider this was at the time purchased for a Supratek Syrah pre-amp. The modwright oppo cd player had the Sophias in place when I purchased and I have not had any issues as you note. After I determined it was one of the tubes causing the problem in the pre-amp, I checked on my Hickok tube tester but couldn’t determine what might be the cause. This was about 3 months after initial purchase. I called Sophia but since I didn’t purchase the 18.00 year warranty they initially said there was nothing they could do. After I balked about the price paid and the longevity Sue finally agreed to send out another pair. I subsequently had a similar hum problem with one of those tubes but after a longer period. The third pair was the charm and no problems. By that point I purchased the warranty.
Lowrider make sure you purchase the warranty and enjoy! They are quite nice tubes sonically at least.
I think you've (and several others) have answered it by saying none of the Russian/Chinese reissues just don't measure up and aren't worth it.
I am looking for a new tube that has some air on top, a la GE 5814as, Ciftes, etc., or at least some syrup in the midrange. I can stick with NOS for sure.
Simple, modify your components to work with the standard tubes. For example, caddock resistors, better capacitors like V-Caps, Clarity, Elna, and adjust the power supply and tube voltage to your satisfaction.
tubegroover, that's a serious problem that Sophia has not addressed.
I started a thread a few weeks ago where I brought up the subject of NOS 6SN7's becoming microphonic. I don't like the sterile sound of the new production tubes I've heard in the preamp stage, so I would like to hear the Sophia's. I will heed your warning, thanks.
Don’t forget, all you NOS tube people and other people, too. You really must have at least one Herbies tube damper on those 6SN7 output tubes; one on the glass where the getter is located, the other one on the base of the tube. Whoa, Daddy!
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