If NOS pre or power tubes became unavailable altogether, what new tubes would you buy?

Dear @tubegroover : """   your facts are not mine... """

my only fact/target is: reproduce the nearest live MUSIC experience trhough my home audio system. 

I can understand that your is different and I can't disagree with because is a self human been privilege.

R.

Dear @jbhiller : You made an open question and I gave you an answer. This is what I posted in your thread :

""" If NOS pre or power tubes became unavailable altogether, what new tubes would you buy? """

my answer and firt post was: NONE, change to SS alternative.

NONE. What's wrong with?

Anyway and due that my target is not to change any one mind and that I like enjoy MUSIC, it's time to do it.

Btw, I left to all of you something to think about: if some one ask us why we own a home audio system, which could be our kind of answers?  maybe:

- I like to listen MUSIC at home.
- I'm an audiophile.
- I'm a Music's lover
-It's my hobby.

and maybe some other similar answers. Now, how is possible that all of us that likes MUSIC some of us just don't care  enjoy it listening the nearest way we can to reproduce the live MUSIC experience through our home system audio.

I care seriously about and that's why attend each week to listen live MUSIC. The other premise is that is me who decided each one single link/item in my system's chain, to be nearest to the real MUSIC,   NOT the corrupted AHEE.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @tubegroover :  "  offering your prejudices regarding the reproduction of music playback to the absolute disrepect of other contributors,.... "

I have not a single prejudices against tubes and this fact and main subject is what you and many other gentlemans just can't understand. You are not looking the whole subject scenario and the source of that scenario.

You dislike to know that your beloved tubes are in fact a litter of electronics for today enjoyment of MUSIC, no ofense to any one. It's just a real fact. I posted here and everywhere:

IT DOES NOT MATTERS WHAT YOU OR ME LIKE IT because this is not the audio subject I'm refering. I'm talking of MUSIC and its today reproduction in a home audio system. Subjectivity is not important but facts.

Almost all of you are angry because your subject reference is your own/self subjectivity ( as the Baskin Robbins example posted here. ) with out not a little/tiny piece of objectivity/facts.

I understand very clear almost all of you high frustration when you read my posts here or elsewhere and from where comes that kind of frustration levels ( that are not against Raul. )?:

that here or elsewhere all of you have not a single fact a single real fact that can prove that everything I posted is totally wrong and that's why insult me in different ways.

You say is almost a misunderstanding from me but please re-read this post and you will " see " that you and me are talking of different subjects. Try to identify my main subject and I'm sure you will understand that "  your obtuse arrogance " that in reality does not exist. I'm not in that way.


"  absolute disrepect of other contributors .. ", ABSOLUTELY NOT, I always have respect for any human been it does not matters that disagree with my explained facts. That's why I never give/gave or post an insult to any gentleman even if he insult me as almost all of you. I know that in reality " you are not talking " but whom is talking is that frustration level generated by ignorance levels.
When we learn ignorance levels improves and that's it. I never try to diminish any one of you, ever.

I'm not challenging any one because there is nothing to challenge for, no one has facts to " win " a challenge of that kind. No one.

Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

" sheduled programming ", means Jurassic Park? where not only does not exist  cell phones or even the Ford model T but  no civilization at all: as I posted: anachronistic.

Even in front of so many facts exist one of you that still is thinking that does not exist the corrupted AHEE that puts you to live in the JP jail that is an open jail where we don't need a key to leave it?

R.

Dear @jollytinker : OP question:

""" If NOS pre or power tubes became unavailable altogether, what new tubes would you buy? """

my answer and firt post was: NONE, change to SS alternative.


What’s wrong with that, it’s an opinion Real problem is the very high ignorance level of some of you in that critical audio subject. Almost all of you likes to live in the audio dinosaur's century, this is not my    fault.

"  Raul's posts are all about Raul "   NO, it's all as people like you. The problem is the false audio world where you live, NOT ME.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @stfoth: Whom is that Bo?

R.

Dear @barbapapa : "  Your answers are off topic .. trolling..."

well this forum is ANALOG. Tubes are out of topic too. It belongs to amps/preamps not analog. Trolling because you understand nothing.

"   sooo stupidly long.. " , maybe because I'm " sooo stupidly ".

R.

Dear @deepee99 : You ask for SS experiences and posted there: 


"""  I won't flame you. """

and in this page you hit again. I can see how trusty you are.

For you and others I can see that no one of you can have a serious dialogue with out insult me one way or the other. Good for all of you.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : Could be obvious that the SS alternative using separate electronics is not the cup of tea and integrated amplifiers " out of question " but I heard from ML its integrated and we can’t say we are hearing an integrated unit instead separated.

I heard too the latest and top Devialet ( this is fully integrated phono to amp. ) and " even " that use digital overall technology I can say is something to listed carefully.

Today that exist a real mature in the SS " land ": mature designers, matured parts, matured design execution, etc, etc. and as Levinson ( I think Vitus and MBL and some other SS proponents as SimAudio. ) the integrated amps is something to " think seriously " about because has a lot of real advantages ( other than lower price. ) in favor of MUSIC quality level performance against separated ones and due to that matured SS industry I don’t see a real drawbacks that can goes against quality level.

Whay am I saying?: SS phono-integrated amps can " catapult " at higher levels never achieved the listen quality of our beloved analog experience.

What do you think about? is it a bad idea?

Btw, I listened the Diavelet in Guillermo's system, he owns the big/top Soundlabs speakers/subs and Magico too. I listened on both.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @tubed1 : Jadis?, it's curious that you mentioned. When Jadis started in the audio market I had it in my system. Was the old times when Jadis was a not very reliable electronics, many people had trouble with their Jadis.

I don't know if you posted as a reference that today high price units used fancy caps/resistors or named as that price is what makes differences in quality level performance.

Anyway, Jadis does not makes differences for the better when we are comparing it against live MUSIC or SS alternative.

R.

Dear @tubed1 : What do you think is the real difference in quality performance level between your home audio system and almost any other one?:

mainly the DISTORTIONS levels of your system against the others. 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : Not even in the 60K electronics you will see teflon cooper V-caps or naked 2575 resistors. Manufacturers as ML makes very good designs: industrial design type, militar specs parts, bullet proof design type. Even that they do not use " boutique parts " they choosed carefully through proved trusty ones: takes no riscks.

Many of the names I posted design that the active parts stay working at no more of its 40% posibilities, especially those pure class A designs where temperature ( to hot. ) is a real enemy for those parts where the quality performance could " suffer " changes out of specs because that kind of temperature. They design for years to come working in those " hard " conditions. SS designs are really trusty and performs faultless for many many years.
When a trouble is present it’s not easy to fix it as with tubes where you just change one tube and that’s it, always is more complex in SS designs.
My ML 20.6s is very good example about: came fromm more than 25 years and works in pure class A and I play with every single day and never had any single fault: staeady all these years as if were manufactured two days ago. This is SS technology.

The important subject is that if we take the SS path we have to, step by step, re-set the system around the SS electronics understanding the SS whole path. Especially its advantages when we compare it against live MUSIC.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : ""   you see crappy capacitors, bad layout.... ""

well, bipolar transistor can sees as 2-3 dollars crappy parts and with out knowing the designer targets ( even if at a low price point. ) is not easy to talk about " bad layout ".

SS designs are way complex than tube ones and SS always has a lot of parts ( sometimes over 100+. ) but signal does not pass trhough it but only through at minimum of it. 

Today decent SS designs can't performs bad and I listened some of them as: ( @deepee99 ) Ayre, Simaudio, Parasound, Naim, Classé Audio, Gryphon, MBL, ML, Krell, Dartzeel, Chord, Sutherland, FM Acoustics, Boulder, Pass, Rowland, Bryston and to many that's not useful to name it here.

As @tomcy6 posted nor two sounds alike but different because design, excecution's design and parts are different as is each one price.

Now, if we change only one link in our system: say preamp or amp, we can know for sure nothing of what I posted here and elsewhere.

To really learn inside the SS alternative we have to choose both links: phonolinepreamp and amp and we can do choosing from the same SS manufacturer.

As I posted here first premise that we have to acomplish is start from CERO and not wanting or comparing if those first impressions with SS are away or near the tube alternative that's what we were accustom to for many years and that's what we like it.
NO, we have to " close " our listening memory of all past tube experiences. As we never had it.

Then focus for at least 3 months in the SS alternative and attend as often we can to listen live music in a nearfield fashion.

The SS learning process is not only made the electronics changes but, step by step, we have to evaluate if the system/room interactions stay the same or we need to make some chnages " here and there ", we have to evaluate if the speaker position is fine or we have to move or toe in in different ways, we have to evaluate if the cartridge VTA/SRA needs a re-set, we have to know if the IC/speaker cables honor the new system surrounded enviroment, etc, etc,. It's a " long time " approach " not plug and play one. We have to learn to listen with that evaluation ( bullet proof. ) proccess I mentioned in this thread.

Through SS electronics everything ( the good and bad. ) in the system comes out, there is no " room " to hide the system tweaks as with tubes. So, it will comes more revealing and several times we do not like the " true ". We have to be prepared to assimilate it an know what to do or what to change to fix system's errors/mistakes/colorations/distortions ( you name it. ).
Could be that the system with tube electronics like itg because is not overbrigth and dislike it because with SS now is overbrigth and we are tempted to say and think: " SS is brigth when in reality it's not but maybe the speakers it self or other system's link in that complex chain.

Your usual words as: musicality, softness, non-agressive, organic and the like will not appears any more in your new SS based home audio system and you will start to compare its quality level performance with true nearfield live MUSIC.

Btw @tomcy6 we never know what a recording it supposed to sound like ( only if we were during it. ) and we don't need to know to know we are nearer to with SS than with tube ones because the SS way lower colorations/distortions of everykind.

We can't have every single answer till we try it in more or less way I explain here and no we don't have to go with Boulder or Dartzeel to acomplish in the rigth way. Ayre, Simaudio, Parasound or Classe can shows us. 
Again, we only need the rigth and positive attitude to do it seriously in an unbiased way.


regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

My mistake, it has to be this way.

"  we can't have a true valid opinion if we have not valid experiences. "

R.

Dear @jbhiller : No one has to worry about tube sources because always exist better alternatives that are almost really unknow for many of us and that's why I posted here.

Is clear that many of us want to stay sticky on tube electronics and maybe because many of us already losted the " adventure " esprit of a human been. Looks like many of us already losted the " quest " to find out what to do and how achieve a true better system quality performance level in favor of MUSIC.

Certainly rolling tubes is not a true answer to but try to learn how to look for true answers.

This is what a gentleman posted in other thread :


"""  the most accurate phono cartridges sound more like good digital . This makes me think some people do like pleasant distortion  . Remember ignorance is bliss until you have heard the difference . """


" until you have heard the " true " difference ": we can't have a true valid opinion in what we have not valid experiences.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @cleeds :  """  everyone here should be entitled to their preference without you telling them that what they think does not matter.... """

that's exactly the whole " thing ". Preferences does not matters what it really mathers in a home audio system quality performance level is at what " distance " is that performance level of the way ALWAYS sounds the live MUSIC at near-field position. How much is far away or nearest to.

Of course that almost all are enttled to preferences even if those preferences are way different on what is in the recording or how the live MUSIC sounds ( full of colorations that were not in the recording but generated by the home audio system that through tube technology are even higher than with good today SS designs. This fact can't be changed for any one, like it or not. ).

You read in the other post here where I name it distortion sources that normally no one really talks about when we are talking of differences or evaluations  and the why's of those differences with different audio items that are critical especially when we are " testing " tube vs SS. We can add others as: low and high frequency oscillations levels, RFI and EMI interferences even if in an audio item both channels measures exactly the same in the normal specs and in all the ones I posted  in this thread.

There are something for sure: WHEN AN AUDIO SYSTEM PERFORMS WAY NEAR AS A LIVE MUSIC/RECORDING THERE IS NO WAY THAT ANY NORMAL AUDIOPHILE DISLIKE THAT QUALITY PERFORMANCE LEVELS IN FAVOR OF HIS PREFERENCES. 


"""  the way you insist things "MUST BE" just isn't. """


Why not?  am I wrong? why and where?  which or where are the mistakes from my part? how " things " should/must be?. I really want to know those answers with out " touching " preferences that as I posted ( again and again. ) it does not matters. MUSIC is the only subject that really matters.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @tubed1 :  """  almost all of us belongs to that HE-community/AHEE... """

of course we do. That statement I posted in this and other forums " thousands " of times. We are in agree here.


"""  my ears are the "corrupted AHEE" """

NO, your ears are not. You learned through the corrupted AHEE but your ears are not corrupted because the AHEE take advantage of all of us high ignorance levels but we in anyway are corrupted or form part of the corruption.

As I said I'm still inside the AHEE but with a very big main difference than you: from some time now my audio choices/decisions are taking by me and not as you where that AHEE already took in advance for you. You are only a docil follower that go  for the audio world with out questioning no one not even your self or what you learned.

"""  alive and growing up!. """, alive is true but really growing up when you are severe limited by them?. You can't grow-up till you make your self one simple question: WHAT IF WHAT I LEARNED IS WRONG? and other questions: WHY IS WRONG? and WHAT CAN I DO TO FIX IT ?

Btw, """  Nandric/Dover  """?  whom are they? but people exactly like you that all what they learned is wrong. If those kind of people are the ones that support you then I understand your post.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @deepee99 : """   Everything distorts,... """, agree and this fact is the main subject.

Now, there are more kind of distortions than we even can name it or even know about. We know about distortions as: THD, IMD, clipping/overload generated distortions, Fim distortion, etc , etc. but exist other kind of distortions that normally almost no one name it as distortions examples of these could be:

- Inverse RIAA eq. deviation level, item frequency response bandwindth, item slew rate, item headroom level, item output impedance, item type of amplification class operation, feedback levels used in the design, item noise level figure, active or passive gain in phono stages, damping factor figure, common mode rejection, crosstalk, dynamic range, etc, etc.

All those parameters and many more makes a difference for the better or worse and contribute to generated distortions additional to the " normal " ones. Tube designs are and have inferior way inferior figures that a good SS designs.

Tube just can't do it, it's fully limited technology ( between other things. ) at both frequency extremes that are the frame of the MUSIC in a home audio system, it's where MUSIC belongs and not to mid-range as almost any one can think.

Tubes are just with out any single way to deffend it other that what you are accustom to that is wrong and it does not matters that you like it because as I posted: what we ike does not matters, what matters is HOW THINGS MUST BE.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @enginedr1960 and friends: Comparison means not a few hours but at least 3 months in a row with full SS sytem and then come back to tubes and compare it. In those months is very important to attend as often we can to listen live MUSIC in a nearfield situation, this nearfield issue is important because is the way the recording microphones are in place during it and the target is to be nearer to the recording nearer on what the micros pick-up.
To make a serious comparison is critical to have a proved/bullet-proof whole evaluation process and to know in specific what to look for during those evaluation tests.

The tube overall subject is a very sensitive subject every time I " touch " it and the problem is mainly because many of you are living for many years in the " tubes's ghetto "  ( the only difference is that there don't kill you, only kills the MUSIC. ) where you never ask to stay there the corrupted AHEE just put all of you there ( in the same manner I was there for years. ).

All the ones inside that ghetto are victims of but all of you have a true advantage over the second world war: you are totally free to go out and I know sooner or latter all go out and the corrupted gentlemans that are the owners of that ghetto will pay for what they did it with all of us.

We only need to learn. They take advantage of our very high ignorance levels in that subject and that's corruption.

Btw, @toddverrone: you are rigth but I never said invented nothing and about the " horse " that's a privilege that each one of us have. never mind, agree with you.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear friends: All of you are rigth and I truly meaning ( I'm not trying to be ironic. ) it.

It can't be other way because that's what you " learned " and what are accustom to listen for many years and what you like. I understand that perfectly and I'm not against you or tubes in any way, that is not my attitude here or every where with any of my posts in this or other audio regards.

Why understand I what you like r accustom to? because I use to have tubes for many years in my system and almost owned or listened all kind of tube electronics from  the humble ones to the Ongaku by AN or top Lamm or any you can name it.

Yes, I was accustom to the tube colorations and I like it.

One day I ask me:  what if what I'm listening is wrong? and started to increment my listening sessions ( attend more often. ) and then I confirmed I was wrong and decided to return to SS technology and I did it. Since then day by day experiences just confirm that that was a good no-return choice.

Btw, I'm talking of home audio systems. I don't care about electric guitars, microphones and the like, for all these we can have a serious dialogue in a dedicated thread not here. Repeat: home audio systems as all we have.


""" designers of SS things (which, of course, often sound fabulous) mention their "tube like" sound  ... """

Yes, that's true and there are some reasons about why is that and one of those reasons is the obvious:

90% of the " high end " audiophile systems are surrounded for tubes and it's almost impossible to " figth " with true justice against that " fact ".

That's why some SS designers changed their usual designs that were normally using bipolars devices for FETs/MOSFETs that sounds more like " tubes " but this does not means in anyway that those SS designs are " like tubes ", way different.

How many time took me to be sure that SS was and is the rigth and only valid alternative?, around 3-4 months to in deep system and live MUSIC sessions were I listened only SS electronics where I never " touched " the tube experience.

After that true SS experiences I changed in my system the SS for tubes and was pity for say the least. I never returned to that poorly experience.

That's the way I learned about the true SS alternative and was ( in different times. ) the same way how I learned that the DIGITAL alternative beats the ANALOG one.

When I did it and had all those SS/Digital experiences I decided to do it erasing what I like it: tube colorations/distortions or LP colorations/distortions. I took the challenge challenging me and what I learned through the corrupted AHEE where I belong as any one else.

Is important to say that I'm not " married " with any kind of audio items or technology I'm married only with MUSIC and my main audiophile target is to be truer/nearest to the recording and to achieve that critical target I need that the home audio system stay with any kind of system/room distortions at minimum, nothing less.
What I like it or what all of you like it is jus unimportant, I'm not talking of that I'm talking on how MUSIC sounds and should sounds through a home audio system.

Our/my self design Phonolinepreamp Essential 3160 has almost no signature: no SS and certainly not as tubes. NEUTRAL could be the rigth word. Like it or not that unit is not important. 



""" The anti tube strikes again ! """


this post is really gentless compared as the ones I had when I was " striking ",  different times, with other main audio subjects like these:

- Was I wrong when I brougth here the TT DD alternative in a BD audio world?: time confirms I was not wrong, even from some years now many gentlemans makes money thank's to my " strikes " on DD subject.

- Was I wrong when I brougth here the pivoted tonearms with interchangeable universal headshells against a fixed ones analog world?. Time confirm that I was not wrong.

- Was I wrong when I brougth here the MM alternative in a LOMC cartridge audio world?, time confirmed that I was not wrong.

- Was I wrong when I brougth here the system subwoofers subject?, time confirms that I was not wrong.

-Was I wrong when I brougth here the different geometry tonearm/cartridge set up alternatives?, of course not.


and I can go on and on. In all those examples people ( almost all. ) laughing ( literally ) of me and they did it because as you ( on tube subject. ) just do not learned about.
I posted here on all those audio susbjects when almost no one " touched " but in those times not even the professional reviewers did it.


First premise to learn is to have a positive not biased attitude that with out it you just can't learn and just can't grow up and have fun with MUSIC and not with hardware.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R

Dear @jbhiller: That¿’s the only fun tubes can gives to audiophiles: rolling tubes.

That totally anacronic technology can’t really honor MUSIC in anyway. Now, if you instead to follow having fun rolling tubes what you want is to have real fun enjoying MUSIC through a home audio system, that’s the target of any serious audiophile or should be, then you need to change to the only alternative that can do it: SS, I’m talking of MUSIC not just sounds as you have rigth now.

Yes, as with digital with the SS alternative you can't roll nothing because you need nothing to rool other than enjoy CD LP and be truer to the recording.

After all our LPs we have it to a truer enjoyment of MUSIC and only SS can do it. With SS we only have to worry to buy new software ( LPs or CDs. ) to follow enjoying MUSIC, just MUSIC that comes in the recording.

Of course is your very personal choice and your privilege, no one else.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.