I need some turntable guidance

Dear @webfan : Here a good opportunity for the Lyra Etna:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9h1a8-lyra-etna-cartridges


R.

Well you have lots of choices

I run tubes (Leben pre & cj 12 monoblocks) into ML Summits.  Front end analog is SOTA Cosmos (in now for series VI upgrade).  

Other setup is a fisher 500C with modified LaScala's.  front end is JVC QLY5F.

Both tables have been fun and reliable.  Previously owned Garrard and Thorens 125 and 126 tables.

The JVC is easy to operate and a fine performer.  The SOTA is more refined and has a better overall presentation but I also am using moving coils with the SOTA and moving magnet with the JVC.  A cartridge has a really pronounced influence on sound.

The SOTA Cosmos I bought used after being floored how good a Sapphire performed in my system close to a couple of decades ago.  I brought it up to series IV spec a number of years ago (RIP - Kirk).  It was and is a wonderful deck.  Vinyl with full bodied sound and approaches the background silence of my digital rig.  I sent it in after discussing the speed control and mag platter with Donna.

I did not feel the need to HAVE to upgrade as the SOTA IV was to my ears already a fantastic performer but you know, audio is a hobby and I already know I will never sell it and figured why not.  Donna swears the mag platter is a blow away type of upgrade but I like that the folks who sell the tables have upgrade plans and stand behind their products.

SOTA makes a GREAT deck.

Just for the sake of comparison;  I had for many years what was a very good middle of the road direct drive which I purchased back in college.  It was the Marantz 6300 and I had been using (still am) the Audio Technica AT15ss/20ss cartridge.  To me it was nirvana.   However in the past several years I have been doing a lot of upgrading and based on what some very well respected guys in the audio business had been suggesting, I found a mint used VPI Ares3 which was about 9 years old and it didn't have a tone arm with it; but it did come with the very expensive and rare 25 pound super platter.  I was also told that if I were to find either the SME Series IV or V tone arm, I'd keep it for life.  I did in fact locate a mint used Series IV and I machined the arm board to accept the new tone arm.  I also modified a set of SVS isofeet medium durometer rubber speaker feet to mount to the VPI for vibration isolation.   The AT20ss was transferred out of the vintage Marantz and over to this new set up.   

I was expecting some improvement obviously, but what I heard immediately nearly floored me!  I was hearing details in the known well to me music that I had never heard before.  Plus the signal was so much quieter and there was virtually NO audible low end feedback from the bass frequencies at any very loud level.  I was blown away.  

That put me onto the next phase which was to try out several different phono stages and that proved to be another eye opener to me.  With each new upper level phono stage I put into service, there was something new in the detail to hear.   I just in fact received a custom built Whest PS.30 RDT SE 2019 from London about a month ago which was tailored to my AT20ss... it's just unbelievable how much detail is buried deep in the vinyl that one would never other wise hear.

So do not discount seeking out a nice used upper end turntable.  I think my Ares3/super platter/Series IV was around $9K retail and I have about $3300 into it not including my time to do some machine work and set up.  Recently I designed a micrometer head clamping system which will attach to the SME Series IV main shaft and it's being made on a CNC machine shortly and going out for some nice hard anodizing.  That will allow me to do on the fly VTA precision adjustments.  I really have no idea what this will gain me, but it will be fun to try it out, not to mention it looks really cool with the fine .001 thousandths inch scale on it.  And I can easily find my original starting point from where I like to set the VTA.

check out the Mcintosh turntables, the entry level is around $5000. the mid road. $7500. their best $10500..............im a cd man and streamer for free,  albums are too much maintenance with washing discs , storage, etc...... but they are romantic and kool, I'm getting to old to keep jumping up and flipping it over......poor me

 I've read your equipment list and it's impressive but you also say are you don't want to spend a lot of money on a turntable since you've never had one my suggestion to you is if you want to go cheap I would recommend highly recommend the rega rp3 now if you want to go a little bit more expensive and get a better turntable I would go with the rega rp8 I mean let's face it Riga is the biggest seller and the most celebrated turntables on the market I myself owner rega P9 with a ortafon cadenza bronze cartridge, my phono amp is a pass labs xp-27 and  my main amp is a pass labs int 60.I have never heard more beautiful music my life and I've been at it for 45 years. About the falling to sleep on the couch, I bought the q up and never had that problem again. Just remember analog will always sound better than digital 

Agree, Sota makes very nice tables, and it's always good to support "Made in USA" brands.

Not ego, Fun! The mythology behind audiophilia is fabulous and the explanation for what people think they hear are even better, without a shred of proof. Any scientist would be laughed out of the community. It is like a ride through a haunted house with gremlins jumping out ready to cut your throat. 
Turntables have two lives. One is to spin records the other is as artwork.
I'm all for the artwork and mechanical dexterity but try not to confuse them. I think the Clearaudio Statement wins the prize for artwork and I would never buy one even if I had the money to throw away.
Daveyf, the Linn platter rings like a bell, the sub chassis rings like a bell, the tonearm board is a flimsy piece of Masonite, the suspension resonance is too high and it is poorly dampened, if you live in a high humidity area like Miami the plinth will eventually fall apart. You can correct all these problems but then you would have a different turntable.
Get a SOTA , SME or Basis. You won't have to screw around and you will be much happier in the end.

Mike 

Dutchydog, saying "always" usually does not work well. Many records do sound better than their digital counterparts like Jethro Tulls thick as a brick. On the CD version Ian Anderson's voice is very harsh but on the record smooth as silk. I just down loaded a 96/24 remastered version of Thick as a Brick but have not listened to it yet. If a record is remastered correctly for digital playback it certainly can sound better than the vinyl. The Leon Russel (blue) album is a good example. The vinyl is somewhat muffled sounding even at volume. The digital version is clear as a bell and more dynamic. So it all depends.

Mike

OP,

one thing that that seems to be true is that you are not a tinkering audiophile. You are a musician who loves great sound.  If you think you might like tinkering or obsessing over adjustments then great. If you want to be less involved with the gear, I think the recommendations for Technics and Rega are spot on.  

@mijostyn, Mike you clearly know VERY little about the Linn LP12 turntable. The more you post, the more you show your ignorance.

Firstly, the sub chassis has been re-worked over the years to address resonances...the current model utilizes a very damped and specific design that is not only highly rigid, but also non-resonant....which again IF you knew anything is called the ’Keel’. Even the entry level model has a new design that addresses rigidity ( Magik)...and is engineered differently than the original design..which was over forty years back!!
The platter does not ring, why because it is mated to a sub-platter..!
The current plinth ( well current in your terms, although it has been available for a paltry twenty years!) is corner braced...as such there are no issues with warpage...even in climes like sweaty Florida, LOL.
BTW, mine is a non-corner braced plinth...and it looks like the day I bought it ( over thirty five years ago!!) ( True, I don’t live underwater in a sweaty clime)
The current ( again modded...oh- thirty years ago and again ten years ago) arm board is either a multi layer wood/plastic base( on the entry level table), or is now one piece with the sub chassis and therefore made of metal!! ( Kore or Keel). None of this you know, since your last exposure to the table was what....25+years back!! Doesn’t stop you from continuing to post your drivel though...
One thing you are correct about, the table from your long bygone era has been corrected....and it is a VERY different sounding table. None of this you would know, as you prefer to stick with your blinkered opinion.

mijostyn I have been following several of your threads on forums concerning turntables and actually based my current purchases on your knowledge and information, eg., SOTA and Kuzma 4 point. I have not decided on a cartridge as yet though. However, having just read your last comment I am a bit worried now over your explanation of brain-behavior relationships; to wit, whether you are right or left hand the speech areas including Wernicke is found in the left temporal lobe even thought many other abilities are found on opposite sides of the brain, ie., motor and sensory functions. Perhaps you should stay within your lane instead of having to be the smartest in the room...after all you did pride yourself on knowing your weaknesses BOOM, but your advice on the turntable and arm will hopefully be spot on. JMW759

@jaym759 While Mike ( mijostyn) may be ok giving advice on the Kuzma platform? i wouldn’t take too much heed in what he states about other things, particularly the Linn LP12! He sure doesn’t seem to know his weakness BOOM when it comes to that table, LOL.

Daveyf, you are correct. I have never seen or taken apart a Klimax modified Linn and it is possible that they have cleverly fixed all the problems that table had. Remember I owned two of them. Back in the late 70's everyone was crazy about the Linn. So I bought one. At that time the suspension was so poorly tuned the slightest jar sent the tonearm skyward. The only mod I made to that one was a laminated arm board replacing the Masonite one.  So I sold it in frustration and made mistake #2 buying a Transcriptors table with a Vestigial arm. The one with the glass plinth with the record in the air on brass pillars. Very cool looking.
Stupid design. Live and learn. Then I had one of the original Oracle tables. Again poorly tuned suspension and QC problems. Then in frustration back to The Linn LP12. Nothing had changed but I figured it would be easier to deal with and I certainly did not have enough money for a Goldmond. So I did. I dampened the platter and had it statically balanced. I dampened the sub chassis by covering it with automotive sound dampening which also made it heavier lowering the resonance rate of the suspension. I stuffed rubber of various durometers into the springs until I got the right increase in Q and made it a new layered arm board with an ebony veneer on top. The one thing the Linn taught me was that having a dust cover is mandatory. I have not been without one since. It lasted until I got to Akron, Ohio for residency. The dealer who I worked with in Miami knew the owner of a shop in Akron call the Golden Gramophone, John Ashe who was also a car junkie. We became friends quickly. He had a red 512BB (Burlinetta Boxer). What a car. Anyway, he took on SOTA given the reviews it was getting and he actually made me take it home to try. One week later I ordered one for myself and have never looked back.
I put a Syrinx PU3 arm on it (great Arm) and the only mod I made was putting a glass mat on it. The platters on the original SOTAs did ring and the glass mat dampened it perfectly. I did not get another table for 20 years. 
Certain issues are open to opinion others are simply facts of life. I will add IMHO when it is opinion. When I do not add it, it is either a fact of life or I am horribly mistaken which does happen on occasion. 

@mijostyn  Seriously!! You now post what you did to your poor Linn (decades ago) and expect us to believe that anything you state from now on in has any relevance to the ( current or vintage) Linn turntable!! 

Folks, if this doesn't say more for someone NOT putting their 2 cents into something that they really have absolutely no clue about, i don't know what does!

Holy Cow!!

I think the OP wanted some turntable advice, not a debate on the merits of Linn turntables

Jaym759, Wernikes area can absolutely be found in the Rt temporal lobe but yes it is most usually in the Lt temporal lobe. I had a patient who was right handed and developed an acute global aphasia along with weakness in the Left leg?? Two stokes. No just one. His Wernikes was in the Rt temporal lobe which is where he stroked out. If you like neurology today I diagnosed a middle aged gentleman with chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy. 
I hope you are enjoying your SOTA and perhaps the most cleverly engineered tone arm ever made. Quite a guy Frank Kuzma. I think the Ortofon Windfeld Ti is perfect in that arm and very difficult to top IMHO.
Oh and not my weakness Daveyf, yours. I got over it. There must be problems with the Linn still because everybody wants to modify it. My current SOTA and SME need no modification although I will upgrade the SOTA to the new motor when I get a chance.

jperry, the Linn LP 12 in a very important episode in turntable history. Because of all the ringing it added a shine to the music audiophiles fell in love with just like tubes. Plus it taught a whole generation of audiophiles how to walk very gently. Many of us still walk on our toes because of that table.
daveyf, you can insult me all you want but anyone taking the Linn apart would wonder how anybody could get more than a couple of hundred bucks for construction like that. My old Zenith portable with the Cobra Tonearm that even had eyes was built better. Most people do not want to buy a turntable they have to modify. They just want a turntable that works right from the start. If you like tinkering great. knock yourself out but most people are not like that. jaym759 will find that once he has his SOTA set up he will not have to touch it until he changes cartridges. 

@mijostyn Mike, i’m not trying to insult you, instead I am trying to stop you from disseminating bad/incorrect information in regards to the Linn turntable.
The fact that you have not heard a new/recent version and are relying on past experience, which occurred decades ago, clouds your opinion; but to come on a pubic forum and naysay like you do, really is not acceptable IMHO.
People don’t have to ’modify’ anything about the Linn when they buy the entry level model. OTOH, at least IMO, what is beneficial is that if, or when funds become available, the same turntable can be upgraded all the way to a SOTA platform....how many other entry level tables can you say that about?
This is one of the reasons that I suggested the table to the OP.

mijostyn, very very rare for a right hemisphere Wernicke's aphasia and of course there are cases of mixed dominance that spread unilateral functions in unexpected ways. However, you did IMHO state a tutorial about sound as clearly in all cases right-left desiccation for language centers...not in my clinical experience. Having said that I am excited about getting my SOTA and Kuzma; I will check into the Windfeld Ti so thank you once again. I have really no knowledge of the Linn, but I am impressed with the recent upgrades at SOTA, ie., motor changes and added aircraft aluminum underpinning; and even though my platform is way solid...it doesn't hurt to have a suspension system! My system is all ARC and Vandersteen 5As, so any other ideas about cartridges would be greatly appreciated. With all respect our brains no matter how they are individually organized are the most amazing part of any audiophile's system!! 

Dear @stringreen  : "  Everyone has their opinions/biases...""

that's rigth but here we have not only some one biased through an audio item in specific but a true fanatic that really die for it.

The LP12 people are fanatics with no common sense about, it's the same with the ET tonearms.

Every one is free to post whatever he wants.

In my case and if I was hunting for a new TT I never will think or have in my mind the mediocrity of that Linn TT or the ET tonearm and I said that with all respect to the audio items owners of it.

The history/tales never end when we are talking with fanatics.

In the other side I would like to ask  to  @wemfan  if he already has or took a choice on the TT/tonearm/cartridge for his audio system?, because this is the main subject in the OP. @wemfan  could you share with us your choices?. Thank's in advance.

R.

jperry

1,554 posts 10-08-2019 2:12pm 
Holy Cow!!

I think the OP wanted some turntable advice, not a debate on the merits of Linn turntables

True, JPerry!  I don't think OP wanted this debate on which of these gunslingers has a bigger package, either.  Way too much personal argument in AG these days.  In this case, it took longer than many threads before the personal arguments started.

People, please stop arguing and calling each other names and help each other!

@rauliruegas  You have posted a number of interesting and on point posts in the past. Unfortunately, this time your point about the LP12 is not accurate. Once again, we have someone who has not heard a new version of the table extrapolating about what they would expect from the LP12 of yore...given what experience??? I expected more. 
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I do suggest getting some recent experience ( preferably in your own system and with a Akurate or Klimax model) before naysaying~

I think wemfan tuned out a while ago. I was just trying to keep him from making a big mistake and buying a Linn. Daveyf wants to make sure everybody else has to spend money getting their Linn modified. rauliruegas, I like you better every day. High Five buddy! 
Jaym759, I suppose I did miss-state that and you are right especially when it comes to the most amazing part of our systems. I seems that it is very difficult for the audiophile community to understand how much our brains are in control of the experience. Just our emotional state at the time can change our perception of sound quality. As you are well aware our ears are connected to our eyes so that they stay on target but I think our eyes can modify our audio experience. Why all those fancy light shows at concerts? Why does my system sound better when I am happy.
There was a period when I was very depressed and I stopped listening to music. I didn't turn the system on for 6 months. It sounded like crap. I read book after book after book trying to take my brain somewhere else.
Enough of that.
Yes, SOTA is on a roll with speed control, a magnetic bearing which should further reduce rumble and the heavier sub chassis. I have to have mine updated. All my Tables the Cosmos and the SME 30/12 are suspended even though I have a concrete floor. Sound vibrates everything and is transmitted through everything except a perfect vacuum
and IMHO suspended turntables sound better because of better isolation.
Unless you want to spend ridiculous money for something like a Lyra Atlas or a Clearaudio Goldfinger the Windfeld Ti is the one. It runs in that crowd and I feel comfortable saying that there is no moving coil cartridge that tracks better. It breezed through the HiFi News test record and the Clearaudio DaVinci could not make it through without a stutter at the end.
I did not mention other great cartridges like the Koetsu's, Air Tight's and the Ortofon Anna Diamond because they are all very low compliance cartridges that will not work well in your arm without adding a lot of weight. There are other cartridges like the Kiseki Purple heart and higher compliance Sound Smiths that might work well but I have no experience with them. Do let us know what you do and give us a review!

Mike

OriginTable & arm.
 

@mijostyn Mike, you state that you have no experience with the Kiseki Purple Heart and the Sound Smiths, and so you don’t comment on them; yet you also have no experience with a non-vintage Linn LP12, BUT you think it is ok to comment on the Linn????
Please explain!

You guys just can’t stop can you?  Do you even remember the OP question?   This is the kind of attitude that makes people afraid to engage in forums like this. 

Wtf are you trying to prove?  Or are you trying to compensate for a “little” problem you have?

@soundermn   Don't worry, be happy. ;0)

Soundermn, actually I have two problems. After kids mine has shrunk to only three inches and then there is my Alzheimer's disease or was that vascular dementia? 

mijostyn...I take your point, well done! Meanwhile, the doctor told the patient: I have bad news for you...you have cancer AND Alzheimer's. Patient to doctor: thank heavens I don't have cancer. The great beauty of music is that it keeps us in the NOW, so no memory issue that matters. Thanks for all your help in getting my system together, mucho gracios, and always nice dialoguing with a fellow brainiac. jmw759