I have seen some Interesting comments about Mcintosh lately
These comments come from here and a couple of other sites.
1.The only people that buy Mcintosh gear are one's that just don't listen. 2. Mcintosh is what rich people buy just like Mercedes Benz. 3. Mcintosh relies on generational buyers as a business plan. 4. Mcintosh is known for rebranding products and putting there name on it. 5. Mcintosh has great looks but uses cheap off the bin parts.
I can't think of another high-end company that have so many stereotypes about the brand. On the other hand I can't think of another audio company that has been in business as long.
My dad was a watchmaker all his life. He hated expensive watches. Believe it or not, he thought a Timex was all anyone could ask for in an adequate and dependable timepiece. As a kid growing up, I seen plenty of high-end wrist watches and pocket watches...I used to drool all over of them.
Dad used to say " the worth of any timepiece is how accurate it keeps time,not branding or gold content." But,being the smart business man he was... the more expensive the watch... the more money he charged for repairs. He used to say to me that he was "laughing all the way to the bank"... I sure do miss that jag-o five-o.
Good Lord. It's Beavis and Butthead around here. Heck I've owned all of the items Schubert (and others) rail(s) against including all of the watches (for and against) and still have some of that stuff today (OK I sold my AMG - a car that I love to this day).
This type of exchange is what kills intelligent exchange on Audiogon. Let me summarize one side of the equation that is particularly frustrating: "MB is bad and overpriced, Rolex is bad and overpriced, McIntosh is bad and overpriced. You are an idiot for buying stuff that I don't think is good and/or is overpriced. You paid too much money because you want prestige. Rolex's are ugly. The Mona Lisa is a piece of ****" OK I added the last one, but you get the drift. The exchange in an audio forum ends with a discussion about watches! So the exchange really had nothing to do with audio and is all about value judements.
IMO some of you guys appear as shock-jock neophytes (you may not be, but that's what you appear to be). After reading some of these postings I've concluded that there is very little to be learned in the forums because of the domination of the Jerry Springer exchanges (yeah that dates me). Unfortunately, it appears that the "he who shouts loudest wins" effect is in operation. Or at least the "he who is rudest wins" effect works here.
There are few of you out there I do appreciate, you've got ears and you've got manners. I do appreciate the gentlemanly way in which some of the posters have conducted themselves in this thread and other threads as well, you've been helpful to me (you know who you are). I don't like the mean-spirited tit-for-tat exchanges.
Apparently all one has to do to get some folks to rail is to put McIntosh in the subject line. It's no wonder that there are other forums where owners of various product lines discuss those products without the "shout downs" here at Audiogon.
While I am conscious of subjectivity of the comment and hate to hear myself say it because I always want to give a more definitive answer: It is particularly true with stereo equipment that synergy between the components, the listener, and the room itself creates the sound so the carte blanche condemnation of an entire brand is ridiculous.
"nuff said. I may be done in the forums. The "Nanny nanny boo-boo" stuff is worthless and not productive or instructive. Have at me Beavis's. I don't plan on responding. It's pretty apparent that you don't know what you are talking about. I know my opinion doesn't matter - I don't know anything, I'll admit it. So I don't have to respond. You win: Rolex sucks, MB sucks, McIntosh sucks. Huuh. Huh. - Hee. He.
There is an audio website that praises Mcintosh 24/7 and it can do no wrong. I would rather hear a difference of opinion even though I don't always agree with the posters. The whole Fan boy thing whether it's Mcintosh, Rolex or Ferrari gets old really fast.
"While I am conscious of subjectivity of the comment and hate to hear myself say it because I always want to give a more definitive answer: It is particularly true with stereo equipment that synergy between the components, the listener, and the room itself creates the sound so the carte blanche condemnation of an entire brand is ridiculous."
Well most would certainly agree with that one Nad2, I think. You just have to understand that the very nature of these types of threads will always bring out these types of responses. I find some of them quite amusing myself but then again I always enjoyed the absurd antics of Beavis and Butthead when they were brought to my attention by my then 12 year old nephew.
I wear watches when surfing so I know what time it is, and because I have piles of water resistant dive watches that need to have some fun. Hey, watches have feelings too. A note regarding the "church lady" consciousness that raises its thick humorless head around here from time to time…these forums should remain somewhat "open" and brand condemnation or quasi religious cult-like appreciation are simply two extremes of this stuff, and if you can't handle THAT, you need to turn off the computer and get the orderly to tweak your meds…maybe let you out into the yard to look at the ducks…get a nice watch…something…listen to a McIntosh 275 and bathe in the warm glow of the LED lit tubes…go surfing...
I find that so Interesting that you said Mcintosh has the worst customer service. I thought they pride themselves with great customer service. I am really shocked!
Having no authorized dealer within arms reach I bought a new MC402 over the phone from an authorized McIntosh dealer. Maybe 5 years ago.Paid for it with a debt card and $125 to have it shipped..I sent in the warranty card info and Mac sent the card back along with a letter stating that" for it to qualify for factory warranty it has to be bought at the store,paid for along with sales tax and carried to my car,no exceptions"No internet or phone sales qualify for factory warranty.I called McIntosh and spoke with several different levels of flunkies and got no where.The dealership couldnt or would do anything for me at that time either..No huge deal I thought although I wasn't happy.A few months later the amp started having distortion on the right channel..Long story short I had to pay an independent repair service to fix the issue...This is what I call horrible customer service
True story..Sold the amp after about a year of use and did ok as far as recouping money but never again will I buy their products.Im not sure if thats McIntosh's policy now but at that time in the fine print it stated exactly the postition they took.Forgetting that, having owned many many macs over the decades I never was that sold of what I heard.The old stuff is way over hyped ,sounds tubby and slow compared to modern gear available,IMO
McIntosh has never been considered a sound-first product. It has always been about quality of construction and aesthetics. Audiophiles in the 60's bought Marantz, not Mac. When they went solid state, only non-audiophiles bought Mac. It looked real good, and sounded "good enough".
"McIntosh has NEVER been considered a sound-first product."
Not too sure about that comment bdp24. I really don't know how many of the vintage Mac products you've listened to but Frank McIntosh and Gordon Gow were first rate engineers and real pioneers in serious audio designs. Frank actually worked for Bell Labs early on. Some of their vintage gear is top rate as far as I'm concerned and rate favorably with Saul Marantz's designs. It is as if to say that McIntosh was never serious equipment but geared primarily to build and aesthetic quality, I couldn't disagree more with THAT impression if that is what you're saying.
One of the best systems I ever heard anywhere anytime was an all McIntosh system, the system in question was up on Red Mountain in Aspen and was used for practice sessions sometimes by the Dave Brubeck Quartet. That was back in the days when McIntosh was all tubes and when they produced huge speakers. There was also some otherworldly monster midrange horn in the middle of the room, dunno what that was. There were eight - count em - Ducati racing motorcycles in the garage.
I went to a local dealer in 2004 to give a listen to some new equipment. In his main listening room he had a set of Mac tube mono blocks driving a pair of B&W 800 diamonds I believe, can't recall the Mac models...they were huge though. After about 5 minutes of sitting in the sweet spot,I got up and left the room.
I don't know what the problem was with that setup,but for that kind of cost I was expecting to be bowled over,instead my ears were bleeding and my head was shaking in disbelief. Go figure...
I can handle banter, but it's the Jerry Springer shout downs that chill the environment: I'm right!!!! And you can't be!!!! On both sides. Although I do think the McIntosh advocates are somewhat demure in their defense of the product. As for me, I don't need to go to a Mc lovefest forum, but I think those forums partially exist because there's a Mc hatefest over here.
I've heard some really weird systems that blow top self products out of the water, Frankinstein stuff, 4 way speakers with the crossovers electronically managed for the room and each of the set of drivers driven by a different amplifier matched to achieve the clarity and/or warmth desired (so 4 amplifiers for a 4 way speaker) in those particular frequency ranges. Yes they were engineers with too much time and money on their hands.
Bozak, Rudy would certainly beg to differ that Marantz was your only choice. but he created something..so he was in the ring so to speak. the critic who has not created..well I think Teddy said that best..
dealer did you wrong wrong by selling to you in clear violation of Mac policy.
My guess is all the new employees replaced by the new greedy capitalist pig owners were not buff enuf to lift the 402 and in a fit of souless zeal voided your warranty so they would not have to lift it out of the shipping crate.. ( seriously my recent anti Mac bias is how massive they are..my back hurts turning the pages of the Absolute Sound...
Sell the watch, memories vs save the children, is this a choice...?
Lets see of all the cars the Audi spent the most time on the flatbed headed to the dealer, followed by the grey market 328, then the 996 turbo ( actually tied with 993 ), AMG one trip for broken tranny mount, and a Boxster S with Zero...but it must be my ego..
tubegroover---I didn’t make my point very well. The McIntosh tube electronics of the 50’s and 60’s were unquestionably among the best available at the time, and found in true audiophile systems. And Frank and Gordon were creative, inventive, excellent design engineers. But they were also conservative, putting reliability above all else (as does Roger Modjeski of Music Reference now)---not a bad thing! Sound quality was important, but was not the MOST important consideration in their designs. Long, trouble-free operation was, glamorous aesthetics (the Mac backlit faceplate is still my favorite look in Hi-Fi) being very important as well. They designed McIntosh products to appeal to, as I have said before, the "Carriage Trade" (an old term)---Professionals who wanted "the best". The readers of Playboy, say. Amongst hardcore audiophiles, however, Marantz tube electronics were more respected and lusted after. When Bill Johnson introduced his Audio Research SP-2 pre-amp and Dual 50 and 100 amps in 1970, they replaced Marantz 7’s, 8’s, and 9’s in audiophile systems, not Macs. Then there were the small companies making extremely high-performance products for fanatics, like Futterman. Trouble free operation was obviously not a high priority for Julius! The absolute best sound possible was, damn everything else. A degree of reliability would be gladly sacrificed to eek the last iota of SQ out of a design.
When they switched to solid state, McIntosh’s standing in the audiophile community dropped drastically. That’s when McIntosh really became about well built "lifestyle" products, not high-performance Hi-Fi.
Tube reliability. Now, there’s an oxymoron for ya. It’s because they are inherently UNreliable that you don’t see any more tube gear in military or commercial aviation. That all went away in the ’80s. Why? Reliability. The reason that old McIntosh tube stuff demands high prices today is not because of reliability. It’s because of sound quality. Sound you can reach out and touch. It's always the reason there are so many tube electronics available today to audiophiles. Sound quality. But if it's reliability you crave, it looks like it's gonna be transistors for you. Reliability is a number.
Thanks for your explanation bdp. While I never considered most McIntosh gear past the 70's "cutting edge" I really feel quite differently about some of their earlier products of the 50's and 60's. I've listened to some quite incredible Mac systems based on some of these earlier designs. One in particular back in the late 80's had me searching for a nice pair of MC60s which I located and still have to this day although not in regular use. While I DO agree that their early designs are rather conservative there is MUCH that can be done to improve performance. After all, they still have those marvelous unity coupled transformers!
I've been a Mac fan since the sixties. Couldn't afford it until the eighties. I used to read the US stereo mags, particularly Stereo and HiFi back then, and I remember that around 1970 or so, Mac stopped being mentioned in the magazines. The story was that one of the mac guys (maybe Gordon Gow?) became incensed at an article published in a magazine by one of the big reviewers (I can't remember who, but he was one of the major names at the time) and pulled Mac completely out of the hifi mags. No advertising, and no reviews. This lasted many years and effectively moved Mac out of the headlights of the highend community, and fostered the attitude about Mac that has persisted.
In the nineties that story was repeated to me by a salesman at a store that carried Mac, supporting my memory of events.
Fine Sounds now owns McIntosh as well as Sonus Faber, Audio Research, Wadia,
Sumiko and Fine Sounds Asia. The company started in 2007 when an
investment company (Quadrivio) bought Sonus Faber. Mauro Grange became
CEO of Sonus Faber in 2009. In 2012 they bought McIntosh. In 2014
Grange and Charlie Randall, President of McIntosh, along with LBO France and Yarpa,
bought out Fine Sounds management. Grange is Group CEO and Randall is
COO and President of McIntosh. I believe they have moved the
headquarters to NY.
In the US, Fine Sounds has partnered with
Magnolia to put high end Magnolia stores in selected Best Buys. Time
will tell, but this may well sour many independent stores on carrying
both Sonus Faber and McIntosh. My local Best Buy/Magnolia has both Sonus Faber
and McInosh on display, but they do not know much about it and are not
up to task of selling it, except to novice customers. When I went in,
they had 4 demo disks that I could listen to and were just thinking they
might hook up a computer system to it. They were not sure if the amp
they were using was class D or tubes. They knew little about the history
of the companies. I told them I had some older Sonus Faber Cremona
speakers, driven by a Cary SLP-05 pre-amp and Levinson 432 amp and the
salesman said he had not heard of them. I have not been back.
DTC, In the late 70's/early 80's I worked at some high shops in the DC area, when Yamaha was a mainstay line for many shops like the one I worked at.
Then Yamaha introduced a cheaper line of equipment, sold at department stores and our factory rep came by and gave us a primer on how to sell against that equipment. We all thought it was the beginning of the end of the "sweet spot" in the product lineup Yamaha dominated, and it was.
Sales people who are on straight commission at these high-end shops have it bad enough to educate their potential customers, oftentimes those customers take that education elsewhere and buy something cheaper, thinking they are getting the same quality. I remember a customer who took several hours of my time, bought a cheaper system from a low-end competitor, then had the audacity to visit me to see if I could figure out why there was all this hum coming from one of the speakers!
When McIntosh (and some other "exclusive" brands) started selling at Magnolia, I thought it was "deja vu all over again". I see that McIntosh is no longer at Magnolia, I suspect the business arrangement didn't work out. But I do see brands like NAD, and B&W, not a good sign for those brands.
Hey, this is a hobby. Some of you with your strong opinions one way or another sound like you are really angry that someone else doesn't agree with your opinions, my advice would be to "lighten up". If someone else wants to spend their hard-earned money on things you don't value, who cares?
ejr1953 - McIntosh is still at Magnolia. As I said, some select Best Buys now have high end Magnolia stores in them.. Only these higher level Magnolias have McIntosh and Sonus Faber. Maybe your store was not chosen for the higher level for some reason. Check out their website
I live in Boston. Try going to the McIntosh website and typing in the Boston area code - 02201. There is one real audio store (Natural Sound), a group of custom installers who specialize in home theater and "connect homes", and a bunch of Magnolias.
I had a different experience in DC in the early '80s. I wanted to buy a turntable that Meyer Emco carried. I was in my late '20s and dressed like many academics of that time. i went to the store with my wife and we spent a hour trying to get somebody to talk to us. It was busy, but nobody had the courtesy to even acknowledge me. When I asked if somebody could help me, they just brushed me off. So, I took the money I had in my pocket and left. I ordered the turntable from a company in Florida.
I hope your last paragraph was not aimed at me. I was just reporting the current corporate arrangements and my experience at one of the new Magnolias. My only "opinion" was that, at least in the store I was in, they were not really equipped to sell high end gear to knowledgeable buyers. I made absolutely no statement about the sound of McIntosh equipment.
In the very early 70’s I had a McIntosh C26 pre and 2100 power amp. Then Audio Research came to town, and their SP3 and D75 made the Mac’s sound decidedly average. Still beautiful to look at (to my taste), and probable STILL working fine, but nothing special sound wise.
Of course, that was a long time ago. Brooks Berdan, a very critical and picky listener, took on the line, selling it alongside Jadis and VTL, Wilson and Vandersteen. Brooks didn’t carry a line just because he could make money on it---it also had to sound good to him. So I assume the current stuff does.
I still think that McIntosh produces a good product. I would not have spent $6500 on the new MAC6700 receiver if I though it looked, or sounded sub-par. My reason for selling it was derived from the amp's "voicing", a pretty obvious, IMHO, tube sounding piece.
So I sez to myself, "self? If you have something that sounds like a tube amp but isn't a tube amp, why not get the tube amp?"
Made sense to me.
The MC275 is one good looking piece of gear, very retro, very modern at the same time. I much preferred its sonics over the solid state receiver. (I've owned other Mc solid state, too.)
Honestly? Being finally able to afford what I consider to be one of the benchmark brands was also one of my reasons. I wanted that glow, that look. I wanted ownership, the experience. Which I got. Now that I've owned it, enjoyed it, I've sold it.
Then again, I've owned and sold/traded pretty much everything!
Right oblgny, pride of ownership is a big part of the McIntosh allure. I still have a warm spot in my heart for the C26 and 2100, and if I found them cheap might buy just to look at. They're so pretty! I have an MR78 (with the Modafferi update) and MPI4 as much to look at as to use.
I have a mint MR-78 that I would love to sell because I never use it. Believe it or not my wife loves the piece and doesn't want me to sell it. She says it looks pretty. Go figure.
I’m hoping when I get set up in Vancouver/Portland there are some good stations worthy of my MR78. FM radio is still a great way to learn of new artists and music. College stations are usually much better than commercial (the one in Northridge in the San Fernando Valley over the hill from Los Angeles has always been good), but I don’t know what the situation up North is. Gonna mount a rooftop antenna if it’s justified. The MPI 3 & 4 are handy even in a system without a tuner---the scope and other indicators are great diagnostic tools for channel separation, phase, etc., useful for cartridge alignment.
Generalizations typically have their basis in fact somewhere, but not always. I’ll certainly go with #2. The Mac dealer in San Francisco, The House of Music, caters to the wealthy. A very close friend was their repair tech for over 10 years but left not long ago because he couldn’t deal with complete lack of scruples of the new owner.
He told me that the newer Mac gear isn’t particularly durable and is often very difficult to properly service.
Mac made their name on the fine tube gear they built way back when. That tube gear sounded very good then and still sounds that good today.
But it’s not the ultra wealthy that buy the classic old Mac tube gear. Those buyers are mostly true audio enthusiasts who have the money to drop $4k on a tube amp. Here on Audiogon, that’s not all that high a price to pay for a top end tube amp. It’s a boatload more than *I* would spend, but that’s me.
I’ve critically listened to a Mac C22 tube preamp and that’s a very, very fine piece of audiophile gear. Own one of those and you’ll be way happy. But did I buy one last year when I wanted to get into a high-end tube preamp? Nope. Way too expensive. Got me a VTA SP13, brand new built just for me with a phono board, for $1500. Ya can’t buy a Mac C22 for less than $4000 and more like $5000. My VTA SP13 sounds at least as good.
I would certainly agree with #1 for those who are buying new Mac gear. They mostly get it to go with their ultra expensive home theatre systems. Here in the San Francisco area you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting an estate worth over $4 million. Home theatre setups in homes like that aren’t bought at Best Buy. They go to places like House of Music and drop Large Cash on the Best because when you have that much loot, you always buy The Best...
As for #3, 4 and 5 - they just sound like sour grapes to me.
"Having no authorized dealer within arms reach I bought a new MC402 over the phone from an authorized McIntosh dealer. Maybe 5 years ago.Paid for it with a debt card and $125 to have it shipped..I sent in the warranty card info and Mac sent the card back along with a letter stating that" for it to qualify for factory warranty it has to be bought at the store,paid for along with sales tax and carried to my car,no exceptions"No internet or phone sales qualify for factory warranty.I called McIntosh and spoke with several different levels of flunkies and got no where.The dealership couldnt or would do anything for me at that time either..No huge deal I thought although I wasn't happy.A few months later the amp started having distortion on the right channel..Long story short I had to pay an independent repair service to fix the issue...This is what I call horrible customer service."
missioncoonery: You should not blame McIntosh for not honoring warranty service but the online dealer who sold the MC402 to you. A McIntosh authorized dealer would never do that simply because they're not allowed to do so. Clearly, you weren't buying the MC402 from a McIntosh authorized dealer. You cannot buy a McIntosh, or many other brand names, amplifier even new from any dealer with discount price and ask manufacturer to honor a warranty term.
I saved for many years to get my Mcintosh system, I have had it now about six years, I went both ways solid and tubes, I love my system, oh and I am not rich by far, my newest car is a 1993, and truck is a 1969. If I were to do it again, I would get the same system, and I do know there is better stuff, but my stuff is Mcintosh.
I can't believe some of these people on this thread, just because they either can't afford something or they don't like something, they put simething down like its a piece of s$@t. A Rolex is worth much more than a seiko or citizen, just because you can't afford it, too bad. You sound like a guy that says a seiko or citizen is a piece of junk because he has a timex, why would you pay more!
also I'm surprised you aren't putting down people who own Porsche's or Bugatti's, because a corolla can get you from a to b just as easy, so why spend the money for anything else? Porsche's will be in the shop more, much more expensive to maintain, but it is worth every penny compared to any Toyota.
As a current McIntosh owner in my late 20s, I have found the RIGHT pieces in the RIGHT combination to be one of the better values out there. Scoff if you like, but I am a fan. As so many have said, if it works for you, great - if you can't see the appeal, that's fine too.
One thing I'll say - my wife is constantly ribbing me (half-seriously, by the way) that "there's really no difference between all of my 'stereo boxes' and the sound out of our computer speakers.. it's just LOUDER." The first time she walked into the room after I unboxed and hooked up my MA7000 Mc integrated, she looked, paused, and said, "well, it sure is pretty," before just as quickly leaving the room.
I count that as a win. Even if it is visual approval from my wife - that has to say something, haha!
Regardless, some of the pricing has gotten ridiculous. I was excited to see the introduction of the MB50, a streaming music player with balanced outputs and all. As a 'millennial' I am interested in getting into lossless streaming, etc. How better to do so than with McIntosh? But after seeing that this 8" wide box with two antennas on the back, weighing in at 10 lbs or so will retail for about $5,000.. are you kidding me?
Let's not alienate the next generation of enthusiasts (me) with 1000% markups. For now, if I want to venture into streaming, I'll buy a Sonos unit and a halfway decent external DAC.
I agree with your next to last sentence, NCKempfert, only the very well-heeled will be buying new Mac's in the future. Their pricing is getting out of hand for guys like me who are retired. The used market is all that holds any future for me. Look at their turntable as an example of ridiculous pricing, along with most of their other gear. I still love their amps & preamps, the looks, the re-sale value, and sound, but the pricing is another matter.
sid42, Mac re-sale value IS one small consolation, no doubt. And I think the inflation of their factory price list will help this trend to continue, as more and more seek used gear.
Great when I want to sell, frustrating as a bargain-seeker!
The reputation of McIntosh and B&W has extended to many Asian countries such as China, India and Vietnam. There are plenty of buyers who are willing to pay any price to own a McIntosh B&W system. In the future, US buyers will see even more "ridiculous" price increase for these two brand names. A canon 80mmm f/1.8 costs $370 while a f/1.2L is $2000. People always says the 1.2L is better but not 5 times better. It's not about many times better or how much an L lens should cost. It's about how many people are willing to pay the extra. You consider the McIntosh MC275 a piece of art and try to save dollar by dollar until you have enough money to buy it. It is not the case for many guys in China or India. for them, it just a matter of writing a check! The manager at a local store was nice enough to set up a multi processor system using 7.1.4 Focal Electra speakers to compare among Integra 80.6, Marantz 8802A, Onkyo PR-SC5530 and McIntosh MX160. It took me virtually no time to figure it out which processor I needed. Buy what you bank account allows and love what you have. Don't compare because you'll never know the true answer.
The "tube reliability" comments seem to ignore the world of tube guitar amps which have been the standard for most guitar players for generations. Do Jadis and VTL users spill beer on their amps, drive them to gigs in bouncy vans, or utilize a pair of 1953 vintage amps at 1000 seat concert venues (Julian Lage). I'll bet Fender buys more tubes in a month than all the hifi companies combined use in a year…I've owned and abused tube guitar amps since the 60s and can absolutely attest to the reliability and toughness of these things, and to think otherwise is to simply ignore what has to be the largest group of tubers, other than potatoes and peanuts.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
