My expensive shoes have measurements but it doesn’t matter, all I want to know is will they fit. My expensive new suit has measurements but it doesn’t matter, all I want to know is will my expensive new shoes match.
The people being misled by measruements aren’t being led my manufacturers, they are being misled by reviewers. Idiotic rankings of digital gear based on measurements outside the range of human hearing. Cancelling entire brands who put out features customers actually want as they sell to humans, not bats. The worst of these websites will rant about their own superior $$$ equipment but mot even one person will ever use speakers in a klippel matchine, they actually put them in a room! The horror. The cancelling of brands, the talking down to the customers, is bogus.
You need to measure what matters! Are the customers actually happy? Is the warranty honored? Most importantly is their an in home audition period?
I don’t need someone to tell me if I could or should like a product. My room is not a test bench, or a klippel machine. Who cares what the component measures by itself because unless its a clock radio I’ll never use it by itself, I have to interconnect it in a "system" with "high quality" cables, (as in all cables are not the same).
If you want to measure something measure how your personal system of curated components interact with your room. That’s it. The rest of the stuff you could forget because these days if a brand overpromises and under delivers they will be following a formula for losing money, an no company likes that.
Where measurements have impacted a buying decision, is when sites like ASR do a review and post a bunch of measurements that appear to contradict the claims of a manufacturer.
This is where bogus begins. The websites publishing these measurements don't do it for free. The more traffic they get, the more money they make. My point is that you have to "test" yourself through auditioning. Both the manufacturers and the publishers of bogus measurements can make mistakes.
I never really got a straight answer as to why Amir's measurements were not valid.
He asks for money in every review. It is easy for him to spot the reviews that generate the most money and I wouldn't put much faith in something so easily. Look at the number of reviews he publishes, it is like a drive by. If you look at his "lab" it is bare walls, bare floor, and big speakers. Not really lab or studio conditions. Many members here have much more favorable conditions to listen to gear.
Not even from Paul at PS Audio
Products are system dependent, I don't think any brand can predict how a customer will like a product under every condition.
@kota1Measurements have never impacted any of my purchase decisions. I'm not an Audiophile, I'm a music lover. A such, I find specs somewhat important. I wanted to know the watts per channel and distortions levels of my amps, but I was more swayed by written reviews, comments from other owners, reputation of manufacturer etc... than a bunch of technical charts that I honestly don't care to fully understand. Where measurements have impacted a buying decision, is when sites like ASR do a review and post a bunch of measurements that appear to contradict the claims of a manufacturer. In fact one of the earliest threads I started was asking the question "Can ASR reviews be trusted?" I had never heard of Amir or ASR but they were suggesting the PS Power Plant did nothing for your system. total waste of money (their words). So I came here to find out WTF was going on. I never really got a straight answer as to why Amir's measurements were not valid. Not even from Paul at PS Audio. So for me, measurements are interesting, and I would really like manufactures to publish technical data to support claims. I guess one place where I do pay attention is frequency response with speakers. I think that is one case where the measurements of the load a speaker is looking for is a very useful toll to determine if a particular amp will be well suited. For example, the Acoustic Zen Crescendo has an almost flat line at +/- 6 ohms. Easy to see it would be a perfect fit for my tube amps. Hope that makes my position clear and Thyname came find a new target. I think jerry123 is always looking for someone to disagree with. 🤣
Your equipment looks very nice, thanks for posting. I think what @thyname and I want to know is how do measurements impact your equipment choices and room setup? I think that's a fair question.
Like I said, he has NO relevance. Thank you for noting, I hope more forum members are wise to that guys duplicity.
It’s a loosing battle. No matter how many times banned, he will always come back. As I said, human equivalent of malware. Awful creature. Very bad human being . Good luck fighting him. You will lose
You have no bat, no ballpark, and no speakers. You aren’t qualified to call anyone "out" except yourself. If you want to "play" please post your system and FR measurements.
Do you see why I say you always argue? You don’t have any game, any credentials, any experience, any speakers, and any relevance.
Good luck with that. This human equivalent of computer malware will NEVER tell you ANY of his imaginary components of his imaginary system. He has none. Trust me on this. I asked him the same question every single one of his previous usernames. Full list below. You will get nothing. Guaranteed
I've been saying it all along. You have test it in time domain. The frequency domain in steady state response will not tell you much.
No you do not have to test in the time domain, for almost all tests. If the transient response is the same every time you apply that transient, which is true in most cases, then frequency domain analysis is totally accurate. Even where you may have periodic effects which you may think will impact the transient, such as AC line noise, frequency domain is sufficient. Even for speakers where we have power compression, which could be considered a transient effect, the speed of power compression, a thermal effect, is below our hearing range, that frequency analysis is good enough. For speakers, the transient response is almost always plotted in tests.
You have no bat, no ballpark, and no speakers. You aren't qualified to call anyone "out" except yourself. If you want to "play" please post your system and FR measurements.
Do you see why I say you always argue? You don't have any game, any credentials, any experience, any speakers, and any relevance.
This paper on interconnect pathway measurements was published on AES
Strike 6. Can you point out the flaw in this paper?
It has been demonstrated that frequencies above the human threshold of hearing generate brain activity, so super tweeters with a decent source are indeed relevant.
This is cool, but I would not take this as a proof of much. From what I read, we cannot discriminate any ultrasonic frequencies, we can just detect presence of some. There have been a fair number of tests over the years of whether people could tell the difference of music recorded to 20KHz, and recorded to higher frequencies. No one can tell when the bandwidth is larger.
We don't have to agree on everything, or even anything, but keeping it respectful goes a long way. Thank you to those that are.
@bigtwin: you are summoned. Call to arms. From your buddy. When are you are going to mobilize and answer the Master call? @clearthinkeralready did. Shame on you it’s taking so long
It has been demonstrated that frequencies above the human threshold of hearing generate brain activity, so super tweeters with a decent source are indeed relevant.
Why is the phrase snake oil so often used to reject what is not comprehended or understood? It makes the writer appear foolish, so I automatically skip the post as being without merit.
It goes without saying that references to bats get the same treatment, and are bypassed.
I for one don’t care about your “Service” There are other people who do the job of a forum measurement moron much better than you. Such as Cin Dyment (aka the speaker dude this time around). Mediocre at best. You have to step it up if you want to compete with Cin Dyment and prominent YouTubers like Amir. Get a better Google Machine for starters.
Traditional audio measurement approaches are based in the frequency domain, using FFT technology and the steady state test tones it relies on. Acuity, with their complex signal processing background looked straight at the time domain, the area which is most revealing when it comes to the systems they normally work with.
I've been saying it all along. You have test it in time domain. The frequency domain in steady state response will not tell you much. But even then, you have to listen at the end of the day.
You want to support websites or people that publish measurements that have nothing to do with SQ I guess that is up to you. If you want to attack me for calling them out frequently and loudly thats OK. I posted links to support my claims that measurements are bogus. If you like bogus, again, I think that’s up to you.
Now, if you want to make a point about some type of universal measurement regarding how to determine sound quality go for it. You have problems with "clearthinking" if you can’t.
If measurements don’t help us get the sound we’re after then we need different measurements.
I find the in room FR measurements helpful.
nobody can tell the difference in a blind test.
That’s why I find measurements bogus when they try and promote a product as superior based on a graph of some sort. My in room FR measures well because of my effort in making it that way, not because of my DAC’s measurements, or whatever.
They attack the test
This paper on interconnect pathway measurements was published on AES
The contradiction to the agenda of the lowlifes publishing bogus measurements sent them straight into a meltdown. Instead of publishing something themselves in AES with facts they simply attacked the test and the author.
If measurements don’t help us get the sound we’re after then we need different measurements. If two different components are almost universally agreed to sound different than each other there should be something we can measure to at least show there’s a difference in their performance that is known to be audibly different. Where I have problems with some "subjectivists" is when they objectively state there’s a substantial sonic difference but there’s nothing obvious in any measurements and nobody can tell the difference in a blind test. They attack the test and the measurements without even entertaining the thought that maybe there’s something psychological going on with their perception of the sound that has nothing to do with the actual soundwaves that are reaching their ears.
I have to say I have not been impressed with the way this thread has been going for the last page and a bit
OK, fair point.
This may be because OP is not assigning BOGUS its correct meaning.
From the OP
The cancelling of brands, the talking down to the customers, is bogus.
that is to make the largest proportion of posts on a thread that he started
Hmmm, I didn’t know this was a forum rule.
More fool us for responding to what has now become a tirade
You obviously support tyrants who cancel brands by publishing metrics that have 0 relevance to the sound quality of the product. Are you defending these bullies? I can’t believe you would do that on this forum, why?
As my opinion has been sought, I have to say I have not been impressed with the way this thread has been going for the last page and a bit. No substantive point has been made by either side for a good while.
This may be because OP is not assigning BOGUS its correct meaning. But whatever, if he is not taken in by some published measurements that's great, but he doesn't have to tell us for three pages, we are not that interested in his point of view anyway. Anyway, most of us can easily see when a measurement is not useful.
I think though OP may have broken one record here, that is to make the largest proportion of posts on a thread that he started. This tends to suggest he is over-opinionated. More fool us for responding to what has now become a tirade, and a dull one at that.
@kota1I just like to keep you talking so you have enough time to change feet.
It is good that you have fooled yourself though. That is where most people start. Once you have fooled yourself, then you never need to learn anything new again and you feel quite justified, even proud of yourself for putting down others, especially those who know more and reveal the flaws in what you believe. It is why you resort almost 100% to insults of a personal nature and do not address the arguments presented.
It doesn’t matter what you post, you have 0 credibility. You haven’t posted your system, your measurements, and all you do is argue.🤬
I would not be making disparaging remarks
When you don’t have a system and your only provable claim is arguing, this is the type of remark you can make, STOP. If you want to get some creds post some type of proof. 🤔
The ASA standards
If you ARE a a member of the ASA please post your qualifications, otherwise please STOP this inane babbling already.🤪🤪🤪
If I posted 5 links / videos, and at least 2 of them are totally false/wrong, and the rest are at best highly questionable, then I would not be making disparaging remarks about others that have nothing to do what is being discussed.
Not in acoustics, concert halls, theaters, and recoding studios have been very consistent with standards. See THIS LINK.
The ASA standards are mainly around fundamental technology aspects of sound, as evidenced by the types of standards the publish: https://asastandards.org/working-groups-portal/ The ANSI/CTA link I published for Consumer Speakers is more relevant for this discussion. The ANSI/CTA-2034 standard is 50 pages long, but still does not go into really deep detail on underlying measurement practices, but it is fair assumption the equipment is following ASA standards where applicable.
A while back discovered an interview with the gentleman that developed the REW software.
REW is good, I find it a valuable software to help get room acoustics right. If you want to see my in room measurements you can check my virtual system. The measurements themselves are legit. I I told someone to buy something or send me a donation just for putting measurements out there it would be bogus.
Essentially, the industry standards regularly referenced by measurement purists were actually vague and open to interpretation by the user.
Not in acoustics, concert halls, theaters, and recoding studios have been very consistent with standards. See THIS LINK.
Those same measurements do not necessarily indicate a sound quality everyone will find acceptable.
+1
We all have different brains, ears, and preferences
I think anatomy is consistent, what we have is different tastes, equipment and listening conditions.
The important thing in any experiment is to document your process and measurement setup. Standards are important where safety is involved, interoperability or improved communication from a standard language. It is not necessary to recreate test results.
A while back discovered an interview with the gentleman that developed the REW software. Math and science the foundation of that software that took years of effort. Quite surprising and illuminating that the developer discovered it incredibly difficult to find clearly documented "standards" produced by the audio organizations claimed to be the authorities. Essentially, the industry standards regularly referenced by measurement purists were actually vague and open to interpretation by the user.
In the disciplined scientific measurement world, correlation is paramount. That means the measurement process and environment is defined in every possible detail. When an independent second, third, or fourth organization or person follows the process and gets the same result, there is correlation. The results are validated and repeatable because equipment, environment, and human variables are eliminated or controlled.
Audio measurements are not necessarily bogus. They simply do not meet the high standard of correlation. Amateur reviewers, regardless of equipment used, do not come close to correlation. There is attention to details required the amateur in a garage, home office, or barn does not and cannot deal with. Are their results good enough for the audio consumer? Probably, with a caveat or two.
Quote-unquote good measurements are a reasonable indicator that significant flaws do not exist. Those same measurements do not necessarily indicate a sound quality everyone will find acceptable. We all have different brains, ears, and preferences. That is a wonderful thing that is not defined by measurements.
@bigtwinhow do you even like or dislike measurements? That is like saying I like or don't like 1+1=2. I get your point though, I just find all the vitriol unfounded, but perhaps it is founded in lack of understanding or understanding, but being too invested in being right?
@thespeakerdude Just trying to inject a little humor into a thread that has lost it's way. Clearly there are two or three camps when it comes to measurements. I would guess that anyone on this forum is into serious hi fi and knows something about putting a system together. Some members more than others. I only profess to be a music lover and don't think I've ever used the title Audiophile. Funny how adamant some members can be when discussing a particular subject. Been guilty a few times myself. But on this subject, and I see there are at least two other measurement threads on the go right now, it's been fully discussed and dissected in the first dozen or so posts. We all get it. Don't think anyone has changed sides yet? Bottom line is this. If you like measurements, use them, and if you don't, then ignore them. Now everyone go outside and enjoy some fresh air. 😁
Saying bogus measurements repeatedly does not make it factual Using bogus links and bogus white papers to assert other things are bogus also does not make it factual. Also not proven is any evidence of a cancellation. Criticism is not cancellation especially if a relatively consistent basis is used for all criticism even if you do not like what that basis is.
@yoyoyaya Yes, Kota misuses the term BOGUS, despite my efforts to explain.
And now he has suggested I elided offensive and bogus, which I didn't.
I can tell you all one thing: there was never a fraction of the offensive and bogus stuff before they invented the internet. We are fast approaching the stage where it does more damage than good. There never was such a leveller down. The few decent people that are left will soon be running a mile.
It goes both ways, bogus measurements can be use to cancel a brand or to promote one as well. It depends on what you measure and the context of how the product is used. It doesn't have to be offensive to be bogus.
Repeatedly members on this site say that measurements don’t matter, and that sites like ASR have no influence in the audiophile community.
If that is the case, how could those sites possibly "cancel" a brand that caters to audiophiles.
I don’t think you have provided any good examples of a bogus measurement. The only one that comes close is in regards to a $5,000 AVR, were the performance was good enough, which was recognized on one graph, but the overall conclusion was that the high price was not justified given the high price. I have a hard to interpreting that as cancelling.
There is obviously the ongoing argument about what is audible, with the science sites taking a stance that they feel can be supported by science. I think it is a fair argument that in some cases system level issues such as system level noise, perhaps recognized, are overly glossed over. You could argue the conclusions are even too black and white for the average non technical reviewer. You are going to have far more success with these as arguments as opposed to something easily dismissed. If you care about the validity of measurements, why not address that with Amir as opposed to making assertions that are easily dismissed?
But surely it should be 'something which you think is offensive'.
Taking offence is rather like judging sound quality. We each do it differently and far too much importance is attached to what at best is entirely subjective.
Many years spent designing and testing complex electronic systems. Measuring and testing was excruciatingly long and detailed process. The last hurdle was performance in the intended environment. Measurements provided a reasonable predictor of performance, but never 100%.
Much respect, good example of being legit. The bogus measurements that are used to promote a product or promote the person doing the measuring=bogus.
Measurements are what they are, if the suit is a 38 and I'm a 38 will it fit. Will I like it. who knows. Will my spouse like it? LOL.
You got to try the suit on, look in the mirror, and ask your wife.
You gotta bring gear home, audition it, and probably ask your wife (LOL on the WAF). There is NO measurement that can predict how a product will pass the hurdles.
Sorry I'm not sure what 'cancelling' of brands is. Is it a Generation Z term for disagreeing or ignoring?
"Cancel culture is the act of canceling a brand, public figure, or company that you disagree with. When a brand is canceled, support is withdrawn and consumers spend their money with competitors if the brand or company has said something offensive. The brand is canceled through online shaming on social media platforms"
It is very rare that snake oil type products display any measurement changes in use.
I don't see measurements for that many products except MPG for new cars. Generally specs are provided instead.
All of the videos I posted of reviewers being called out by other reviewers or the companies they tried to cancel are examples of this.
You batted 0 out of 5 on the videos you posted that I looked at. All were very flawed if not outright wrong. The videos you posted really highlight the need for competent technical sites to do the work they do as there are far too many people and companies publishing information that is misleading if not outright wrong.
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