These wires you make, have any of them been certified by the Kenjit Society?
How to select a good Speaker Cable
Speaker cables do have a significant role in how our system sounds. Different cables sound different.
So which one is the right one for you?
The Speaker Cable is an extension of the Amp. and not an addition to the speaker's load. It shall have a certain resistance (low) not to spoil the Amp's DF figure. As so, it can be calculated and there is a formula to do it.
The higher the Amp's DF, the lower the Speaker Cable's resistance shall be. As today SS power Amp's get DFs of 400 and above (Digital Amps go by thousands) the cable of 10 ft (3m) long, gets as thick as 0 AWG.
I can see your eyebrows elevates, when that thick cable is to be deal with. Most Speaker Cable makers skip it because of that. So most cables on the market (regardless of the look or price) are of 14-12 AWG. Way less that supposed to be.
Worst! no Speaker Cable maker, dealer or seller knows the answer, of what is the correct cable for your system.
So most of us ended up, with a cables too thin for the task.
A conducted test, on this site, about a year ago as well as with some closer friends, shows a significant improvement with a calculated size cable over their previous cable. The results were all positive and preferred the calculated cable.
So, instead of asking: which of two brands, or two prices or two colors of Speaker Cable do I need, you should ask how thick of a Speaker Cable do I need.
I'll be happy to provide you the calculation, for who request it. All you need to provide is:
1). Length (Ft. or meter)
2). The Amp's DF figure.
Thanks
199 responses Add your response
Mr. jaybe
Look at my post, a bit above - posted at: 07-18-2020 10:50pm with plenty of reports that people who tried it, shared their sonic experience with us. It is all taken from a thread of mine in 2018, here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/no-one-actually-knows-how-to-lculate-what-speaker-cable-they-need You may read it all, if you have the time or take my post here as recommended. Enjoy... |
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Go here. http://anticables.com/speaker-wires/2-channel#!/Level-3-1-Speaker-Wires/p/14644527/category=3449817 You won't be disappointed but if you are they will let you return the cables. |
Mr. cooperjack
What kind of a joke is this? Are you a sales agent of this firm? Is there any guideline to tell you what cable you need, regardless of what information is required for that? Do you think that one cable for all works? What makes one cable of this firm any better than another, or some other maker's cable? Is the cheep price going to make you forget the bad quality? |
Follow the flowchart: 1) If your amp is more than 200 Watts/channel use a 10 gauge or less copper only wire. If power is less than that, use a 12 gauge copper only wire. 2) If the wire length is less than about 8-10 feet, stop. You are done. 3) If you here, verify that your wire is longer than 10 feet. If not, go back to step 2. 4) Choose a wire based on 1 and 2 above and in addition... 5) Pick a wire with low stray inductance and capacitance. |
Mr. cakyol
Your flowchart is funny / wrong. Nice try. Well, the resistance of a conductive wire as copper, is: https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circuits/Lesson-3/Resistance R = p x L / S When p is the constant resistance of the material (copper) L is the length in Meters S is the cross section in square millimeters. As so, when a given cable's length increase, so is its resistance. The way to compensate on length (to keep the same resistance) the cross section need to be higher. so, the same calculated resistance, is effected by the cable length - in a linear relation. Double the length (from 7.5ft. to 15 ft.) the R (resistance doubles too. To keep it the same S need to Double too. If you ref. to the AWG table, the increase in # AWG number (from 7 to 8) is not half the resistance. If you would like to have 1/2 the resistance, from a #12, you would need to use #9 awg. and if you need 1/2 of that it would be a #6. So it gets 1/2 the resistance every #3 awg steps. Yes, it's better to keep the cables short. If the length is a must (too far from Amp), you step into thicker cables. If you can use monoblocks, place them back to back to the speakers, and connect them with very short jumpers (10" of less), is the best. Never seen one on a demo! |
Mr. audiofool1
Your Nordost Heimdall 2 spec https://www.nordost.com/norse2/heimdall2/heimdall2-speaker-cable.php calles for a 18x22awg = (52.9392 ohms per 1,000m) / 18 = 2.941 ohms. That is the equivalent of ~ #9 awg. (a bit less). For a 2m cable for a DF of 4000 (very high!) an 8 x 0 awg is required! That is a very hard one to find or make. |
Interesting thoughts which has me looking to experiment considering the little investment required. Was wondering if you have a source for spade connectors for a 1/0 gauge wire? I could only come up with a connector for welding cables with a 5/16 hole which would then need to be cut to attach to amp and the speakers would need to end up as bananas . |
Mr. stevea11757
Thanks. The best to make your 0/1 awg cable is to use a short but thinner cable on the ends. I used #8 awg. For the length, 10cn (4'') is good. In person, I prefer banana plugs over spades. I used the Nakamichi type from eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/8x-Nakamichi-Gold-Plated-BFA-Speaker-Audio-Banana-Plug-4mm-Connector-Bananen/281702195511?hash=item4196c26137:g:Q3QAAOSwu1VW6rf~ Connecting the short #8 awg to the Nakamichi banana plugs: used soldering. Connecting the short #8 awg to the 0/1 awg cable: I use an industrial type of spade. I purchased a crimping tool for that size! and the spade is cramped over the 0/1 awg cable. The connection between the short cable and this large spade can be done also by soldering (before crimping). You ,at yose alo a different methode: Dril a short jile, for the #8 awg cable to enter, about 2 cm deep. Insert the #8 awg cable into that hole. Use a small hose band to tight it up - and you are done. An isolating sleeve (shrinking) would be nice on top of that. Please be kind to update me on progress, as well to share your impression from your new sound. Thanks. |
Mr.
unreceivedogma Good for you. There is tell, of a guy in Russia, who thought the russian made shoes were very good, till he purchase an imported pair... Usually it is common to think that the better is the worst enemy of the good. In your case, this say was put to sleep. |
This guy tries to convince you that you need a battery cable. He uses DF and feet of cable then comes up with the perfect cable even though using the same numbers you can show the difference between a crazy 0awg cable and normal 12awg cables there is an insignificant difference between the two when connected to a system He can’t seem to grasp that it’s the DIFFERENCE that matters when used in a system not the difference setting on a shelf. |
Mr. djones51
You've got it wrong, not me. The #12 awg is not any more "Normal" or #0 awg crazy. It's of what the cable makers got you to think. It is only because it was more difficult to handle a #0 awg cable and very easy to handle a #12 awg. So, keep using a bad cable at a time, it is difficult for others to make a good one. All who tried it out, were very happy with the results. It did a significant improvement and difference. The calculations were always correct and fit the results. If for some reason, you are from the cables industry, I can understand you concern. It is time for the people to wake up and buy the right cables, not those you recommend. |
Mr. donpepe You are good. The DF of your Amp. is relatively low, (see my answer above to Mr. Mr. echols8). |
@djones51 I’d guess you’re pretty low on the food chain. Or maybe a social pariah. Certainly immature. In any case it’s your credibility that’s taking a hit here, not the OPs. If you’re so dim as to not get out of a situation you don’t like, then I’m sure people here would be happy to invite you to leave. |
You think so, how sweet of you to notice. Look through the posts my math isn't wrong and neither is his it's just he's measuring the wrong thing. Not to mention when you consider the impedance and voice coil resistance of the speakers makes his attempt at handing out cable recommendations by forum post even more ridiculous. |
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Mr. djones51 Is this going to be like this forever? I’m happy you skipped this time the "being rude" part. Thanks. As per the AWG STD table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm What table do you use? (link!) The given cable resistance (Ohms per 1000 ft. raw - just "Copy - Paste" on the numbers!): #16 the resistance per 1000 ft is given as: 4.016 ohms #12 given as: 1.588 ohms #8 given as: 0.6282 ohms #4 given as: 0.2485 ohms For a 6ft length, you need 12ft cable: A red (+) of 6tf and a black (-) of 6 ft. 6ft + 6ft = 12 ft. The calculated resistance for the 4 cables is: (#16) 4.016 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.048 ohms (#12) 1.588 ohms /1000 x 12 = 0.019 ohms (# 8) 0.6282 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.0075 ohms (# 4) 0.2485 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.003 ohms Very different from your calculations: 8 awg = .459 Ohm resistance @ 6ft 12 awg = .466 Ohm resistance @ 6ft 16 awg = .480 Ohm resistance @ 6ft I have no idea from where your numbers are coming from? You need to check your calculator’s battery, and replace them. :-) As so, your DF to cable comparations are all errores. But for the sake of science, this is not accounting (using only addition and subtraction of numbers), we (Engineers) use also multiplication and divisions and more... Then we get the ratio: a/b and not only the diff. of a-b. I think that by this example, we are pretty much done. |
This is where you don’t get it. What’s the DF of the amplifier for you’re asking these people? The one I used from above is 105 DF. Why do you forget to add the DF to the cable? The cables aren’t connected to nothing. So here is the real numbers for that amplifier with a DF of 105 Your numbers The calculated resistance for the 4 cables is: (#16) 4.016 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.048 ohms (#12) 1.588 ohms /1000 x 12 = 0.019 ohms (# 8) 0.6282 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.0075 ohms (# 4) 0.2485 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.003 ohms Numbers for an amplifier with a DF of 105 105DF = 8/105 =.076 Ohms (#16) 4.016 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.048 ohms + .076= .124 Ohms (#12) 1.588 ohms /1000 x 12 = 0.019 ohms +.076= .095 Ohms (# 8) 0.6282 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.0075 ohms +.076 =.083 Ohms (# 4) 0.2485 ohms / 1000 x 12 = 0.003 ohms + .076= .079 Ohms From the smallest guage wire #16 to the highest guage wire #4 the DIFFERENCE in cable resistance for an amplifier with DF of 105 = .045 Ohms in other words INSIGNIFICANT The resistence of the cable is swamped by the speaker used you don’t even ask for what speakers they use. Your numbers are accurate as far as they go but they are meaningless in the real world. I’m getting tired of trying to educate you. |
Mr. djones51 You are tiring me out Mr. djones51. Consider this answer to be the last ! Haven’t seen any explanations of your source for the AWG table or the errores calc. A 105 for DF is not that much of a DF. But as this is what it is, let’s do it: 105 DF = 8/105 = 0.076 Ohms as Ro. If using a #16 awg cable (6 ft) = 0.048 ohms as R cable. Add the DF (Ro) and the cable (R): 0.076 + 0.048 = 0.124 ohms 0.124 ohms equals to a combined DF of 8 / 0.124 = 64 So, by you using a #16 you are losing 40% of the original DF of that Amp (105). Is 40% still insignificant? But why 105? Do it with a DF of 400 ! (there are guys gere with Amps of 800 and even 4000) 400 DF = 8 / 400 = 0.02 ohms. With a # 16 awg you lose 70% and so on... (you claim its insignificant, so I take the liberty of using a #16 awg) . Is that significant enough for you? Most of cables out there are of #12 awg, for the convenience of making them, rather of: being significant for the task... Would you like that attitude when sitting on the dentist chair, or at a bypass surgery? That would be a first. With a #12 awg, you about to lose 50%! I can understand that you can cut your loss in advance, if you go to gamble Vegas or buy some shares. It's a game with chances to WIN but also to LOSE. Is 50% loss on the sound is insignificant for you? Sticking to your thin cables, you only lose! (unfair) No WIN !!! |
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Mr.
madcow You need a #4 awg cable for 9 ft and Df=210. |
For All If you are into the path of implementing my advice, and getting into a DIY project, than please read this: 1. Use care when working with cutting tools and soldering. 2. make sure you turn your system off (not standby!) when you replace cables. 3. After you do an extensive listening to your music, with the new cable, please come back and share your impressions. 4. When you kindly do so, please provide the following info.: What # awg and length was your previous cable, What is the # awg and length of your new cable, What is the DF of your Amp. How much did the DIY project costs? Thanks you all, in advance. |
It is usually a given of the Amp of your choice. There are two ways to go: Low DF as common with Tube amps, tube like (with output transformers), like mcIntosh etc. Those have a different sound signature. High DF, common to SS high power amps, and they can go anywhere from 150 and up. PASS LABS is at 150 Emotiva is at 400 Luxman is at 700 Class D tend to go really high with DF to over 4000! When you try to understand DF with a power Amp, try to look at a car's engine: While the Amps' power is the HP of the engine, the DF equivalent is the torque. DF is of how much of control the Amp has over the speakers. So in this perspective, the higher the better. I do not think that the spec. of digital amplifications of 4000 is actual. I did't dig in, but the figure is just too good to be right. DF can be achieved by a meticulous design of the output power stage, Or with a feedback. If it's feedback, it's not as good. In the past, I used some Rotel amp with high DF (feedback) and is sounded bad. |
