Czarivey,
I'll try it once... I'd hate to be seen as cheap! (Just kidding, I'm cheap)
I saw your system, I've heard the Aerial's are great. I'd like to hear them and Totem, and Silverline, Proac, etc. The reviews I've read interest me.
Congrats on a great deal on the 10's. They are probably beyond my reach but I'd still like to listen!
Gary |
No Gary, You're at the wrong spot! You should be looking at yard sales. Will be displayed at $10, but you can offer $5 or lower. |
Do turntable mats made of leather count as audiophile skin? |
I'm in Michigan at a car show, winery:brewery, outdoor concert. If they are selling audio skin- I will take $50 worth! Okay - $20 for sure!
Hope you all are having a great weekend,
Gary |
Uncle, not only skin, but bones too. When it gets to the bones, it's very hard to get rid of skin :-) |
Ghost, if you're ever in Arkansas, I'll let you hear mine. They were originally owned by Mike Rodman, a 6 moons writer, I bought them after he passed. They are pictured in some of his articles. I bought several pcs that belonged to him.
I sold some Sonus Fabers and kept the Ushers. SF I had were awesome, the Ushers just suited me better- new owner loves them. There is so much I haven't auditioned, the redhead and I need to head to Dallas or Chicago sometime to hear different brands.
Overall, I prefer bright vs warm speakers. When I listen to warm speakers I tend to lean into them from my chair for some crazy reason - like it will help me hear more detail! With my setup, my tone controls are bypassed, balance knob is centered and everything is there. It just suits me.
I'm looking forward to my turntable enhancements-
Warm regards,
Gary |
Uncle -
Thanks for looking at the system. It's modest compared to some...mid-fi, even - but gives me a lot of enjoyment. Posting it helps anyone reading my comments get an idea where I'm coming from (for better or worse). I do need to update things a bit. Main components are unchanged but I've changed cabling (ICs mainly) and that's made a nice improvement.
Didn't know your Ushers so looked them up...somewhat similar to the Forests in being 2-way floor standers with similar sensitivity, impedance rating and frequency response. BUT the Ushers have fabric dome tweeters. If there's one thing I think could be improved on the Forests, it's the tweeters. They use metal dome and with some recordings (e.g., a few hot, re-mastered CDs, mainly) things can sound a little harsh. Fortunately, that seems true for only a minority of what I listen to and an IC change from the CDP has "tamed" that a good deal. On the other hand, no idea what changing them would do to imaging, speed of attack or dynamics (all very good right now). It's always a balancing act and compromise, leastways at the price points I live at. Anyway, I wouldn't mind hearing those Ushers. Based on the retail pricing I saw for them, looks like you get a lot for the money. |
Ghost, you have quite a system, beautiful!
I'd like to hear the Totem, from what I've read they seem like my cup of tea.
Best,
Gary |
They sell audiophile skin, too? |
Audiophile skin sucks. Get rid of it. |
Uncle- Your "was just thinking" comments are probably some of the sanest I've read on this forum. The dark side of this hobby touches on addiction...enough is never enough; there's always something better out there for just another $1000 - that is until you decide things ARE "good enough". But that sort of flies in the face of what some here believe it means to be an audiophile. If that is the case I'm happy to say I ain't one and just get on with enjoying the music. Hope you get great pleasure with music from your TT. |
Chakster,
Sorry, I was mistaken on the Isonoe. I already have 'half' of another isolation product. I'm going to buy the other half.
Regarding the mat, I intend to buy an aftermarket mat that has been recommended. The mat can be returned if it doesn't satisfy.
I tend to agree with you to an extent on the SL1200. It's probably not the pinnacle of vinyl reproduction, but it satisfies me for the most part. Enough that I don't mind spending a few bucks to 'enhance' it a bit- especially when I can use most of the parts elsewhere in my kit if/when I replace the SL.
Hey guys, was just thinking-
There's a guy reading this thread wondering why we don't spend 5k and get a modern state of the art turntable. But there is a guy reading the 5k dollar guy's posts wondering why he didn't spend 7k and get something good. There is another guy with a 12k digital front end wondering why we like cracks and pops so much.
Awesome hobby for sure, makes me happy.
I appreciate everybody's thoughtful feedback and help. There is a lot of knowledge here, and I learn so much.
Best,
Gary |
Dear friends
With all my respect to SL1210 mk2 let's make it clear it's a hi-fi turntable, not a hi-end gear. Not even close to Technics hi-end decks from the 70s.
SL1200/1210 mk2, mk3, mk3D or mk5 are good for proffessional use in the clubs, it's a legendary dj turntable and i use them for 17 years already.
It's full of compromises in stock condition to make this deck affordable for mass market (professional market). They made millions of them, it was the best selling deck in the world. Anyway even for professionals the biggest problem is bass feedback and bad isolation (very bad stock feets construction) when djs use this deck in the clubs.
For those you want to use this deck in a better application they must solve all those compromises (bad wires, power supply, feets, tonearm). This deck was never designed to be the best Technics deck. The tonearm itself cost just $150 new! In the 90s the price for the new deck was about $390 in USA. What do you expect from the turntable for $400?
There are many other Technics turntables available for audiophiles. Those like SP10 mk2, mk3 made without compromises in construction. The price tag was higher, but it was true Hi-End! Technics EPA-100 tonearm cost $900 used today, the SP10mk2 easy to find for $1000 in perfect condition.
I have no idea why people wasting time and money with SL1200 mid-fi/hi-fi deck and invest money to solve the problems if they can easily buy true vintage hi-end Technics for very resonable price.
The stock tonearm of SL1200 ($150) is the biggest problem of this deck. I know only one company who used their own 1210 technics mod on Hi-End show. It was Zu Audio, but their modded deck was $4500 and now they use vintage Luxman with two tonearms. Anyway their modded sl1210 comes with Audiomods tonearm (UK) and low compliance Denon 103 (also their own version).
Jelco tonearm also designed not for high compliance cartridges, but very papular among technics sl1200 owners. Comes with build inn silicone damper (all togerher for $450).
Modern SME must be much better and more expensive, also the ugglies looking arm on this deck.
What else? Vintage SME? Modern Originlive? I don't know...
You're very limited with optional arm for SL1200, but with SP10 and good plinth you can use absolutely everything you like and it will be much better sounding deck of different class of performance.
P.S. SL1200 still ok for second system or as dj deck, but using it for main system will never give you satisfaction that other/better turntables can give. |
Gary, what you mean: "A mat is on my list. I have the Isonoe footers already, but not the cones." ?
This is Isonoe construction:
http://www.isonoe.com/products/audio-isolation-system/
You don't need any cones with Isonoe, you don't even need sarbotane boots they offer as a bonus.
BTW they also offer tonearm base for SME 309, 4, 5 and "their own tonearm": http://www.isonoe.com/products/tonearms-base/
I never tried their arm, but isonoe feets are adjustable and fits very well and works just fine (also looks great on sl1200/1210). |
Zd542 there is NO factory made technics 1200/1210 with build in phono stage, DJs use mixer with phono stage, every mixer has phono input. That's how it works in the clubs and there is no need for build in preamps inside the decks for club use as there is a mixer (aka preamp) between the decks anyway.
p.s. ortofon concorde or any other ortofons for djs are the worst cartridges ever made, but very papular and very expensive compared to top quality Grado DJ200i which is the best sounding new DJ cartride. |
Yep believe it or not, even stock SL1200 is substantial step above RP3 or P3 no matter how much they worth vs. one another. P3 or RP3 is primitive, noisy while SL1200 is superior built and engineered. Go through various offered KAB upgrades and SL1200 will be on the same league as VPI Junior, Spacedeck or similar. |
Czarivey,
Thanks for the input. I enjoy the 1200, and I think a few tweaks will keep me happy for awhile. The VTA is handy and I use it, something I forget about and take for granted.
Regards,
Gary |
I had various SL1200's and I had Rega P3(not RP3).
I'm sure that RP3 is just different name, but everything else is same as P3.
I decided to give it a try to have a dedicated turntable for home stereo while using my 4x SL1200 for DJ and club applications only.
After introducing Rega P3, I realized I'm loosing exceptional speed stability and low noise floor of quartz direct drive motor along with clarity and precision. You're also loosing on-flight VTA adjustment and forced to use spacers instead(I could never get it right with P3!).
After realizing I've lost too many things I loved about SL1200 without gaining much improvement on sound, I traded my RP3 for Michel Gyro SE... Other choices I looked was Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck and Basis Debut. Turned out I like performance of suspended plinths in general.
What you are actually missing in SL1200 vs. RP3 is that unsuspended motor sound Trrrrrr heard via whole plinth. |
Chakster,
A mat is on my list. I have the Isonoe footers already, but not the cones. I'm going to add the cones, mat, and maple plank.
Thanks for the input,
Gary |
Maybe they make a DJ version with a phono pre. They don't have a regular head shell that you would mount a regular cart on. Its some type of quick connect setup. The quick-connect cartridge you're talking about is an Ortofon Concorde or one of the copycats. They're pretty standard fare especially for clubs, as they automatically have the correct overhang and overall geometry for any Technics SL12x0 series. Those are everywhere, available from Amazon, Guitar Center, Musicians Friend, etc. Built-in phono preamps in SL1200s? Not so much. |
All I can tell you is that the ones I have, come with a built in phono stage. I plugged one of them directly into a line stage and played a record. Maybe they were modified with after market parts, or are knock offs. I live in NY, anything like that is possible. I should have mentioned before that I pulled them out of a DJ booth. My family owns several night clubs and that's how I ended up with them. Maybe they make a DJ version with a phono pre. They don't have a regular head shell that you would mount a regular cart on. Its some type of quick connect setup.
I can do better than post pics. If anyone wants them, they can have them. They're not that old and in very good condition. I'll never use them and would rather give them to someone that would. As soon as I get back to NY, I'll pull them out of the closet and post back when it would be OK to pick them up. |
09-09-15: Zd542
I have 2 of them. Whatever version of the 1200's I have, I know they have a built in phono stage. Unless they are custom built-ins, you are mistaken. You can even Google the entire WWW universe and you will not find any instance or mention of a built-in phono stage for a Technics SL12x0 series DD turntable. The Audio Technica copies, however, do have them. The AT copies have a defeat switch for the internal phono preamp. I can't imagine a turntable with internal phono stage that wouldn't have a defeat switch. The advice you were giving the OP indicates that the turntables you're thinking of don't have the defeat switch. #1: Any Technics SL12x0 series with an internal phono stage would be an after-market modification. #2. Check again. Your assertion flies in the face of all available info about the Technics SL12x0 series DD turntables. If yours truly have a built-in phono stage, pictures please. There are many articles out there about orienting new owners to the SL1200. They usually go into detail about making sure your receiver or integrated amp has a phono stage. ExampleCheck the Web for any example of an SL12x0 series turntable with a built-in phono stage. YOU WON'T FIND IT! |
I have 2 of them. Whatever version of the 1200's I have, I know they have a built in phono stage.
"09-06-15: Uncledemp
Chayro,
I've heard good things about the Denon. However, my built in phono stage is suited best for MM or high output- ruling the 103 out. Correct me if I'm wrong."
To me, that sounds like he was referring the built in stage on the TT. |
These two thing will help you to improve the sound:
- Boston Audio mat 2 (one of the best)
- Isonoe feets for your sl1200 |
Thanks!
I should have the mat and isolation done in a couple of weeks. I'm looking forward to it!
I appreciate the help johnnyb53.
Gary |
09-09-15: Uncledemp
I didn't know the SL1200 had a phono section built in.
That's because it doesn't. How can you know about something that doesn't exist? I've been using the phono input on the Anthem. Am I doing something wrong? Not only are you doing nothing wrong, you're smart enough to recognize the quality of the phono stage in the Anthem. Keep doing what you're doing. You have good instincts. The SL1200 is fundamentally a good table and the tweaks and mild mods discussed here will make it "pop." |
09-09-15: Zd542
"09-08-15: Uncledemp
I wasn't suggesting that you bypass the phono stage in your Anthem. That should work just fine for your needs. The TT itself has a built in phono stage, and if you can't bypass it for some reason, you can't use the one in the Anthem, or any other one in between. You'll have to plug the TT directly into a line level input on your integrated.
You either have no experience with an SL12x0 Technics turntable or you are confusing it with a latter day copy by another manufacturer. The Technics SL12x0 series turntables--all of them--do not have--and never have had--a built-in phono stage. They were designed in the '70s and early '80s, when *every* receiver and integrated amp had a phono stage. The output of any SL12x0 direct drive turntable is RIAA signal coming off the LP. Period. There are latter day and cheaper turntables that have built-in phono stages. Two such are the Audio Technica PL120 and PL240 direct drive turntables. They are styled like the Technics and they're decent for the money, but they aren't in the same league as the SL12x0 series when it comes to close tolerances and slick and silky feel. And they were designed after most mid-fi receivers and integrated amps only had line-level inputs. |
I didn't know the SL1200 had a phono section built in. I've been using the phono input on the Anthem. Am I doing something wrong? |
"09-08-15: Uncledemp
Hi, the phono stage is in my Anthem integrated. But I see your point. The answer is yes, I can change the phono stage by adding one between the Technics and the Anthem via Aux input."
I wasn't suggesting that you bypass the phono stage in your Anthem. That should work just fine for your needs. The TT itself has a built in phono stage, and if you can't bypass it for some reason, you can't use the one in the Anthem, or any other one in between. You'll have to plug the TT directly into a line level input on your integrated. If you can't use the phono stage in the Anthem, I would consider a different TT. But that's just my opinion, and I know many people really like the 1200, so I understand why they want to keep it. |
Guys,
Again, a lot of great info, thanks. Unfortunately, I don't have a background in electronics and am unable to maintain/repair vintage gear. If the 1200 weren't so hardy I would not have it.
At one time, I traded in and out of a fair amount of vintage gear. Once I had some well regarded pcs, I would read how good the units would sound if I would bring them up to spec via, recap, power supply rebuild, etc. Point well taken- but my bargains would lose some luster after a thorough going through. Not to mention not having a personal relationship with someone I trusted to do the work. The honest guys out there seemed swamped and if you were lucky enough to get them to do the work- it may take months.
I just looked into some discussions on the SP10, and read the units would need to be brought up to spec to sound as good as it's younger brother SL1200 mk2. (Unless I read something wrong.)
I've never had any high end vintage turntables, but if it is labor of love, I better pass. Just don't have the skill and patience.
If the 1200 died today, I'd probably go buy a Rega table with Rega headshell and install 3 screws and be done. Otherwise, I'd be wearing a paper protractor out to check alignment one more time!
I know it may be blasphemy - but I use the Technics overhang gauge on the Sl1200! Hopefully, we are still friends...
Thanks again,
Gary |
I have to admit that(as I remember it) I thought the Technics SP10 mk2, I heard on the needle drops, was more competitive with the best turntable sound I heard there(Pink Fish Media). In addition, the SL 1200 had some mods(one improved the table for sure.). The question is cost and getting an arm, I guess. If you go the SP 10 route, I still suggest you audition, to see if it satisfies you. |
Johnny, SP10 cost under $1000 (used) and compete with $10 000 turntables, Teak Wood plinth for it cost $700 new, the rest is tonearm and cartridge.
Upgrading SL1200 is waste of money, i have done so with my two SL1200 ( rewired tonearm with cardas $25, changed external cable to Zu Audio Mission $150 used, fluid damper about $130, isonoe feets about £150, i have not replaced the arm cos it's another $450-1000 depents on the arm, you can also buy external power supply and lose more money on it)
It's a waste of money, better to sell the deck and buy a proper Hi-End SP10 mk2 and keep it forever! |
Uncledemp, you're right; the Anthem phono stage has a good reputation and adding an external phono stage complicates things--in added cost, compatibility, appropriate interconnects, and even shelf space.
It may be something to keep on a back burner until later. In the meantime, you have a really powerful integrated amp, a good (at least) phono stage, and a list of upgrades and tweaks for your turntable. I think it's best to do the upgrades and let them settle in to see what you have before going on to something else.
It may be that the tweaks and upgrades mentioned in this thread will totally ring your bell, and if you throw in another phono stage you're complicating things until you're not sure which part is doing what. |
Hi, the phono stage is in my Anthem integrated. But I see your point. The answer is yes, I can change the phono stage by adding one between the Technics and the Anthem via Aux input.
I do like the simplicity of my system. When I've had more complex systems I always wondered about interconnects, synergy between components, etc.
At this point in my life, I would sacrifice a bit of performance to keep it simple. The Anthem's phono stage did pretty good in the reviews I read and sounds good in my system (my opinion) - but I'm sure improvement can be had for a price.
With that said, I am open to Phono preamp suggestions if they would considerably improve the sound.
Regards,
Gary |
Can you bypass the internal phono stage in the 1200? |
I posted earlier I went down the upgrade path .. its not worth it. The money is better spent on a TOP vintage turntable. You also don't need a new tonearm many vintage tonearms are excellent. ie superior to the SL1200 tonearm.
If you go down this path if you don't like it you can sell it and most likely get your money back.
If you go down the SL1210 upgrade path if you go to sell it will be hard to recoup more than a base SL1200 is worth.
I think the underlying problem with the SL1200 is the rubber plinth and none of the upgrades mentioned above address this. |
Chakster: the OP is pretty clear that he's looking at a $1000-1500 budget tops. Can you realistically put together an SP10 mkII rig like you describe for that kind of money? In under 6 months watching auctions and possibly doing extended parts searches to pull the whole thing together?
It depends on whether he's looking for some easy upgrades or an adventure.
He already has an SL1200. New mat, better headshell, better feet, fluid damper and tonearm rewire will noticeably raise the 1200's performance for little money and little hassle.
The SL1200 can be taken even further with aftermarket armboards available to accommodate SME, Jelco and Rega (and compatible) tonearms. |
If you like Technics buy SP10 MK2 which is amazing turntable compared to cheap and dark sounding SL1210. I own both, even totally rewired 1210 with fluid damper and stock arm is far away from SP10 with tonearm of your choise.
With 1210 you need to replace the tonearm to a better one (sme, jelco, audiomods etc). It's not worth it as the SP10 is better and more flexible (with big plinth you can use "10 or "12 inch tonearm or even two arms on one plinth). Save movey on a better arm and better turntable is more reasonable than trying to upgrade SL1210 of any kind.
I use upgraded 1210 as second system and even with Technics EPC-100cMK3 or Glanz MFG-31L or Audio-Technica ART2000 it can't compete to my SL10 mk2 with Reed 3P "12 arm.
P.S. someone posted here that Denon 103 is a "good combination" with SL1210 stock tonearm. This is not true, it's the worst combination for low compliance Denon which works well on high mass tonearms ONLY! Technics SL1200 stock arm designed for cartridges of higher compliance, say 20-30cu @ 10Hz.
|
I have a full KAB SL1200 and several cartridges the most expensive of which is an Ortofon Cadenza Black. To answer the question for myself, I have ordered a VPI Classic 3 and will post here once I have had time to listen and compare the two. In an older system in another house (so a direct comparison is not possible) I have a VPI HW-19 MkIII, which also sounds very good. The KAB SL1200 is a lot more user friendly than the VPIs. Time will tell the tale. |
If I can continue to gain performance from the 1200 by spending a few hundred dollars, I'll be happy. I have some of the items on order now, and will contact KAB in the future. With my associated gear it appears keeping the 1200 is the way to go, at least for now.
I think I will avoid any demo's of high end tables. Ignorance is bliss! |
Johnnyb53, I guess I was surprised about the fact that I wasn't engaged by the music of a Technics SP10 mk11 at a recent audio show. I definitely think a stock Technics SL1200 needs something-even if it's only careful placement. I just wanted to point out what Uncledemp might be missing(what he might look out for), as that was the question he asked, and what I thought was missing from the SP10 mk11. I was unfamiliar with the music, and I have heard, and danced to a Technics 1200 at a dance club. I also think a stock 1200 might need some looking out for, based on needle-drops and hearing one at an audiophile's home. |
I've owned an SL1210M5G from KAB for a going on10 years now. I've done a number of the same tweaks that Johnny b53 recommends (have not wrapped the tonearm, however). Independent of his suggestions, I ordered my TT from KAB with the fluid damper installed. BUT I didn't actually start using it until a couple of years later. Consequently, I have a good sense of what that will do for the sound. I was already using a heavy hardwood plinth and had replaced stock footers + using other vibration control devices. For me, the fluid damper made a significant improvement to the sound. I'd caution you not to overfill. I only use enough fluid to where the paddle from the tone arm is immersed in it by just a couple of millimeters when the needle is on the record. I also found the Way Excellent TT Mat from Herbies to bring a nice improvement in clarity (am actually using it in conjunction with the heavier Technics rubber mat). It's your money and I'm not trying to say there aren't better TTs out there (especially for more $) but I think you have a good foundation with the SL and tend to agree with those who suggest spending elsewhere. Don't know anything about the Anthem phono pre but maybe that's something to consider...separate, outboard phono pre-amp. Am using a Heed Quasar, myself. Had a Lehmann Black Cube before that. You might benefit by dropping Kevin of KAB an email. He's very practical and down to earth. Good guy to deal with. I like his mod'd. integrated carts. I have a couple of Stanton's from him with vintage Pickering ellipticals. They do take all the hassle out of install and alignment. Might do one of his Ortofons in the future. Right now running a Grado Prestige Black w/8MZ stylus that he installed for me. Enjoying it. Good luck. |
At the same price, you are missing nothing, you are ahead of the game. And with the names you mention, the same, you are doing fine. You have to spend a lot more ($5k+) to get a lot better, and it will take different brands than you mention. |
Tweaking what you have is always a great adventure and personalizes your audio experience. Enjoy, but don't rule out the Well Tempered recommendation if down the road you are still not satisfied. The older models are still more than competitive with today's offerings and a steal at their used prices. |
Thanks guys,
All great advice! Can't thank you all enough.
For the most part, I enjoy the SL1200. It sounds dynamic and exciting to me, and soundstage seems solid and the speakers disappear. I'm sure the saying applies, "you don't know what you don't know"
I think the route I'm most comfortable with is:
Vibration Control (Isopod/mat/maple plank)
Cartridge
Headshell
Look into, continue reading up on KAB mods.
It won't break the bank, and I have faith it will improve the sound. Afterwards, I think I'll demo a table or two and compare.
My investment in vibration control, headshell, cartridges, etc will hopefully move forward with me if I upgrade tables.
Again, thanks for your advice- I'll use it all in one fashion or another I'm sure.
Kindest regards,
Gary |
I'm with Johnny. Do those cheap tweaks then see where u are at. U will get a greater sense of satisfaction from doing that as opposed to just going out and buying another table. Plus u will learn more.
U can use mc into your mm stage, just add a SUT. Parks audio sells one that uses the cinemag trannies for a third of the price of a bobs devices but it is pretty much identical. Great bang for your buck and you can always take it with you as well. |
Mmakshak: The strongest trait in quartz-locked direct drive turntables (including the OP's), it's a strong sense of pace as well as dynamics and bass extension. These are the very traits typical of direct drive turntables. Plus, the SP 10 didn't come with a tonearm, so whatever it has is what someone installed on it, post-sale and there's no way we could know what it was.
The weakness in the SL12x0 series was vibration control and damping, which can be inexpensively treated.
Another solution is the new Pioneer PLX-1000, an SL1200-style direct drive turntable with three times the torque (talk about propulsion and timing!), built-in tonearm damping sleeve, damping sheets under the plinth and in the subchassis, and improved feet. It's $697. |
I have a different take(one I will get a lot of grief for). You might be missing the foot tapping quality of music. Does your body want to dance to the music? I've only listened to needle drops, a brief listen to one, and a Technics SP10 mk11(I think.). I'm pretty sure the arm is not too good. Are you getting the reason why someone made the music(I doubt most records are made for the tonal quality of the instruments, but rather they are done to communicate something. Of course, some are made just for the "sound" of the instruments.). |
Try Music Direct if you can't audition locally. I'd suggest giving them a call and talking to Chris or Bes, their vinyl gurus. They can help steer you right and they have a great return policy if you don't like what you buy. |
Johnnyb53,
Great information in your post!
Thanks! |
