How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?

Just a couple thoughts on the holographic image discussion.  No doubt that the better the holographic image, the more likely that the home listening experience will improve. 

A few things I've noticed from attending live events are that when you sit front row center, you easily perceive width but depth and height seem to be somewhat compressed..in other words, if the singer is 20' in front of the drummer, you don't sense 20' of depth.  And if the drummer is on a 5 foot elevated platform, you probably don't sense the whole five feet.

Therefore, I want my system to produce width at least 3 feet beyond the speakers, realistic height (4-6'), some depth and a strong center image when appropriate.  My system is 2.1..with towers running full range and a 15" sealed sub coming in below 45hz....turn off the sub and the whole hologram colapses inward substantially.

And as mentioned in a prior thread...if the tone, texture and dynamics aren't right, the hologram won't carry the day!!

It just goes to show not everyone’s on the same page about this, although some try to narrow it to one view only.

@rvpiano, yes but it’s far too complicated to narrow down to just one view. At least for us audiophiles.

I do think that in these download times it should be easier for the recording industry, if they could be bothered, to deliver multiple recordings with little extra cost.

That way we could chose to buy uncompressed over compressed or those made with a more natural microphone position if we want that live, ’you are there’ feeling, or original remaster over remix etc.

The industry however seems to be against live recording and instead obsessed with correctness of performance via overdubs and innumerable takes. Glenn Gould was an early fan of this new technology and the opportunity to record a perfect performance, at least from the performers perspective.

Since there’s a huge difference in piano sound with the microphone positioning (eg placed under the lid as opposed to a more natural distance, same for guitars/drums etc) it follows that most recordings are a concoction dreamt up by the artists and producer rather than any attempt to capture a live performance. Multi-tracking has many uses but also a lot to answer for.

Perhaps if we’re looking for holographic sound we could begin by compiling a database of recordings that were made with a microphone perspective of the listener sitting in the audience rather than a slapdash conglomeration of numerous immaculately recorded audio tracks piled on top of each other.

I've never seen a record with "holographic image stamped on it".  I've never bought a record specifically for "holographic image"  with out consideration for the music.

As much as I enjoy it when it occurs, everything is still about the music.  Although most of us want our rigs to be able to produce this when it's on a record,  we buy records for the music we like, not for holographic image.  That's like only buying records for excessive bass.

Most of us realize the "relativity" of all the elements being discussed.

"I've never seen record with holographic image stamped on  it ……"

Opus 3 has a disc titled 'Depth of Image', which can excel at portraying a 'holographic image', but it is so good unless you have already heard it under optimum conditions, you might just think your system is already there. This record is one of the few I've heard. Each cut on the record (and while on CD I vastly preferred it on vinyl) has a description of what you should hear if your system is optimized. If you are really interested....:-) 

I agree with your 2d paragraph - 

Yes Newbee, I am always interested in test records that will help me optimize my system; the record would be preferred.

I have that Opus "depth of Image" recording both on vinyl and on CD. It does portray a nice holographic image for sure. However, "normal" recordings can do the same thing on a system that allows it to be done.

This morning I had a hankering for some genuine flamenco guitar music. I broke out my three-record box set of the Connoisseur Society Recordings of Manitas de Plata (hands of silver) playing flamenco guitar with various voices. So natural sounding. It was recorded in a small chapel which is said to have perfect acoustics, in Arles, France, in 1961.

Manitas de Plata (His real name was Ricardo Ballardo) was a Spanish gypsy who picked up the guitar as a child. He never learned to read music. However, in spite of that, he became the guitar and the guitar became him. He was a true master of the flamenco guitar. None better in my opinion. Oh, there may be players who are more technically correct, but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, Manitas de Plata is the way to go.

The recording has an abundance of exactly what we are talking about in this thread. The holographic imagery is amazing as is the tonal quality. If you love soulful flamenco guitar and singing I highly recommend this box set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitas-De-Plata-Flamenco-Guitar-SRL-8643/352555244276?hash=item5215ee1af4:...

Someone should jump on this one. At ten bucks, its a bargain.

Frank

PS: I’ve found that most of the early tube miked stereo recordings from the late 50s through the middle 60s have plenty of depth and holographic imagery.

I heard through the grapevine that Opus 3, Depth of Image, is in Reverse Polarity. That can’t be too good for a holographic soundstage. In fact all Proprius label records are in Reverse Polarity.

Amazing isn’t it that you heard this effect on your ’in polarity’ system. Or did you hear it on one with reverse polarity? Or did you hear it at all? Maybe my old system also had reverse polarity, ergo why this record sounded so fine, and on my present system, not so much. :-)

Re Proprius labels - I don’t own any so I don’t know. I understand that they did make a recording of some ’bar jazz’ a lot of folks like. Go figure. 

The label on which ’Depth of Image’ appears is Opus 3.

BTW for anyone interested there is a brief commentary on Opus 3 and this disc in Dagogo in 2012.

Ah, right, Opus 3 is another independent Swedish label, like Proprius. Yes, I’m aware a lot of people like Jazz at a Pawnshop, including your humble scribe, nevertheless apparently it’s in Reverse Polarity. What can I tell you? 😬 As for Opus 3 - Depth of Image, it probably sounds “depthy”-  if that’s a word - even in reverse Polarity. 😛 

Is the Opus 3 and Proprius label CDs also in reverse polarity?   I've got about a dozen of the LPs between them and their polarity sounds correct.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.  Thanks

P.S. the early stereo recordings were generally recorded with 2 or 3 mikes, especially for Mercury Living Presence recordings.  They have great holography.  

I heard through the grapevine the Mercury Living Presence CDs are in Reverse Polarity as well, maybe the records, too. Everything is relative. Very good records that are in Reverse Polarity still sound pretty darn good and have good holography. You don’t know what you’re missing until you hear them in Correct Polarity. Maybe someone can try reversing speaker connections to see if Mercury’s, Proprius, Opus 3 are actually in Reverse Polarity. Unless, of course, the system is in Reverse Polarity, as someone just suggested, which would make them all in correct Polarity. 😳 The In Phase track on test CDs and LPs such as XLO Test CD is in fact in correct Polarity.

The thing about those early recordings that no one mentions is that they were recorded WITHOUT Dolby. They also used tubes, not transistors.
I believe the implementation of Dolby was a definite factor in the deterioration of sound from the mid sixties on.  

Most of us realize the "relativity" of all the elements being discussed.

I got exactly the opposite impression after following some of the threads.

Oregon, I saw this on "youtube" and I thought I would post it. I always buy records new, hate any kind of scratches; I will find his music on amazon; thank you.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2NUQm3CzuA


I love Flamenco.

I like flamenco, too. Especially the pink ones. 

Thanks for the link, orpheus10 ...

For anyone interested, go to 10:05 on the Youtube video that orpheus10 provided for us. Simply amazing guitar work.

It was for good reason that John Steinbeck called Manitas de Plata "A great and savage artist."

Frank

Sound quality is the most important thing for me.
Violins should have a sheen but a solid core sound, like the real thing, bass should have subtle articulations, drums should have attack and resonance.
After the actual sound quality, holographic imaging and transparent air (very much tied in with sound quality) are most important.
But if the actual sounds are not both realistic and pleasing to me, holography is useless.

Fusian, I don't think anyone here would disagree with your post.

While we appreciate top notch equipment, and strive to make everything as good as we possibly can; there is nothing more important than the music. 

Boy am I lucky; this is one of the rare times that I have been on a thread with guys that I feel can give good advice.

Two 12AU7's are going bad on my CJ in the bedroom, and I'm hoping someone can give me some recommendations.

That guitar of Manitas looks like it has seen some tough times; maybe that's what makes the best Flamenco?

Manitas music has "soul" that you can feel, and that does it for me.

Orpheus10,

Telefunken NOS 12AU7’s sound great in my CJ.

geoffkait - I’ve purchased about 18 Mercury Living Presence pop LPs from Stan Ricker in the 1990s, the engineer of them and of Mobile Fidelity LPs. He told me that many of them had parts of the recording out of phase while other parts were in phase. They were not consistent as to being in or out of phase and changed phase positions within a track and between tracks. I don’t know if this afflicted the classical Mercury LPs but I don’t think so. The pop LPs definitely have some odd soundstage sounds with parts out of phase.

I have two copies of Brasil 66’ Stillness with A&M brown labels, different stampers. One is 100% out of phase. Very nice sounding AFTER reversing phase at the speaker or amp. The other is in phase and sounds the best of all pressings, really excellent. Tom Port of Better Records told me about 20 years ago that I should listen to each and see which one is obviously better and definitely listen to them in phase.

Out of phase recordings are generally not good sounding from my experience. Partially out of phase recordings can be okay like Stan Ricker’s pop Mercurys.

Everything is relative. Obviously, whether a record or CD is in correct overall Polarity - which is what I’m referring to - depends on the mastering engineer, who cannot change whatever damage was produced by the recording engineer in terms of Polarity, or phase as you call it, which are the issues you referred to. There is no standard for Polarity or even Absolute Polarity. The best strategy for coping with the ubiquitous OOP records and CDs might be to ensure your system is in Reverse Absolute Polarity.

Piano, it's interesting that you should mention Telefunken.  Recently, I replaced some 6922's in a phono-pre with Telefunken, and they kicked it up a big notch.

I had been using NOS Mullards on the CJ, and I was satisfied, but I might be more satisfied with the Telefunken.

Thanks for the tip.

Ironically , I was using Mullards too.  Telefunkens made a big improvement.

Most Mullard's sold are fake .

If im listening to a good jazz trio with nicely miked singer ..or Hudson on Bass remake of Don’t go chasing waterfalls ..highly recomend this track ..if i stop what im doing a plunk my A$$ in the sweet spot ...and turn it up a bit and close my eyes ..do I smile ...especially when its a piece of music i ve heard on many sytems over the yrs ....just got boneicke w5 se ‘s 
and ..while i know there drivers are not top notch ...i likem ..and they let me enjoy the music instead of thinking about the SPEAKERS !
afterall chasing the equipment is ..NOT why i turn my system on ..

Piano, they have new tubes that are identical to the NOS Telefunkens. Of course the new tubes are much cheaper. I bought two of the new tubes, and one was bad. When I told them about it, they had another tube on the way before I got off the phone. That was at Tube Depot.

The new tubes sound fantastic; how much better the NOS sound, I don't know. Could you mull that over and get back to me.

I plan to buy 10 tubes, and the difference in price is significant.

I really can’t say how the new Telefunkens compare to the NOS, but I do know that the NOS made a major difference in my system.  I paid about a hundred or so apiece for them at Brent Jesse, a really good tube purveyor.  Generally less expensive than Tube Depot.

Orpheus10, This may be of absolutely no help to you at all, but Telefunken machinery was purchased by EI ('yugos') before the 'war' and they made tubes with the sonic signature of the Tele's. I've used 12AU7A as well as 12AX7a, the latter of which I like a lot, especially the one with the long grey plate.  My experience with the AU is modest.This sonic signature appeared in their 6dj8 as well. Unfortunately they are hard to find but if you do they will likely cost quite a bit less. FWIW.

Piano, I went to Uncle Kevin at "Upscale" audio, whose price was $349.00


      https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/telefunken-e88cc-6922

I need both 6922 and 12AU7; now I think I'm going to buy 12AU7. Will go to Brent Jessee and get back to you.

Piano, Brent Jessee's 6922's are $300. All these Telefunken tubes have the same exact numbers, including the new ones. His 12AU7's are also $300.

Nobody is cheating anybody, it all makes sense; NOS tubes cost more, even when the new and the old were made at the same factory. As best as I can figure it out, someone bought the old factory and began making the identical tubes.

From what I can recall in regard to discussions on these tubes, quality control was better then, even though the tubes look identical.

As I stated, the new tubes are fantastic; one was bad, and they had a good one on it's way before I got off the phone. That was months ago, and now I'm happy with no complaints.

Presently, the new tubes are sold out. Someone would have to buy both and compare to make a determination. Since I don't have the spare cash, it won't be me; I'm going to buy the new ones when they get them in stock.

The NOS lasted longer than any tubes I ever had, so there is something to be said for quality control.

How long these new tubes last remains to be seen.  

Quite a price increase on the NOS 12AU7’s since I bought them less than a year ago.

Orpheus10, Out of curiosity, what is the brand of the 'new' tube?

Newbee, "All" of the tubes I mentioned were Telefunken; they were NOS and brand new tubes, that had identical numbers.

There is a thread here where knowledgeable people discussed this very same thing extensively; comparing NOS tubes, to identical brand new tubes; maybe it could be looked up. I don’t remember all of the conclusions they came to, but from what I can recall the difference was one of quality as opposed to sonics.

I bought the brand new tubes, and I was delighted, now I'm buying some more.  Since quality is a long term thing, that remains to be seen.

"Serendipity", there is an interesting word. It's so unique that the definition is insufficient; therefore, I will illustrate serendipity.

There is a problem with my sound-stage; the right channel is louder than the left. At first I thought it was the equipment, after a lot of troubleshooting, I discovered that wasn't the problem.

The left side of my listening room is composed of a huge sliding glass door to the patio; that was the problem, a glass wall is bad news. That wasn't the only problem with that glass wall.

The sliding glass door is single pane glass, (no good for the winter) and I want double pane glass. For reasons I have yet to understand, contractors can't replace the door.

I was listening to music, and at the same time, I could feel the winter chill coming right through that huge single pane door; unpleasant, and bad for the heating bill, something had to be done.

I went to Home Depot, bought some foam insulation, came back and taped it all over the door. Now, I can't get to the patio, but who needs a patio in the winter.

Covering that huge door with insulation was work; time to settle back in the sweet spot and do some serious listening. Is it my imagination, or does my sound-stage sound balanced. Wow! I can't believe it; that insulation over the glass door corrected the channel imbalance.

Now that's "Serendipity".

Serendipity continues or "Holography part II"; take your choice of titles for this post.

After I taped the insulation to the glass door in order to conserve heat, when I settled back into the sweet spot for a long listening session, the sound-stage was balanced. (the insulation on the door served as perfect room treatment) It had never been balanced before; the right channel was louder than the left channel, and turning the left channel up was not a good solution for holography.

A balanced sound-stage is essential for this phenomenon, now that I had it, I couldn't stop listening; instruments floating in air, non existent speakers, everything there is to be had with good holography was mine; this is the end of the line for me, my quest is over.

" this is the end of the line for me, my quest is over."

It is cool though that you were able to narrow it down to that, but what is your plan for next summer?

Boxer, music is a narcotic, and my listening room is now an opium den; I go into a state of euphoria when I can pinpoint instruments in space and focus on specific sounds that just hang in one spot, or like in Herby Hancock's "Rain Dance" where weird sounds are constantly popping out of space and moving all over the place,  I'm in another galaxy.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2hK6_o5Pdw


There is no past, there is no future; just one glorious present, the summer is light years away.

@rvpiano,
I hope you are following this and put a blanket over those mirrored doors
😉.
I hope you got rid of the moisture, too.
Bob

gdnrbob,

The moisture is gone, thank goodness and my son fixed the leak.
 You’ll have to talk to my wife about the blanket. ;)

Just put a blanket over it when you listen and remove when done. I think it will be a big improvement. Glass is terrible due to it's reflective properties.
B

BTW I have on order 2 Telefunken Black Diamond ECC82 / 12AU7 from TubeDepot for $96. To be shipped in 2 to 4 weeks because they're out of stock.

Rvpiano, this tube sounds like a Mullard, and plays over it's price.


I believe NOS last longer. The decision has to be made as to how much of the price increase is due to rarity, as opposed to how good the tube sounds. You can get a lot of bang for the buck through tubes.


12AU7 RCA Cleartop (side getter),SPECIAL MATCHED PAIRS

New Old Stock Original Box and White Box. A great tube that rivals West Europe types, making it a great buy at this price. Some say the side getter contributes to the low microphonics of this tube. Wonderfully balanced airy highs, midrange warmth, and accurate bass. These pairs have been carefully hand selected for close dynamic mutual conductance on a Hickok 539A. I have sold dozens of pairs of these, and clients agree this tube is an incredible bargain among NOS tubes. Stock up now, this tube is vanishing from the market just like the Telefunken smoothplates!

$69.00 per pair

The cleartop RCA 12AU7 was made in abundance.  It was used in many electric organs in the 50's and 60's, often rebranded.  Great tube for cheap price.

fleschler, I didn't know they were in abundance; that explains the relatively cheap price. Since I have several pieces of equipment that can use them I will stock up.

We have a tendency to think more expensive things sound better; I needed a 12AU7 and found one that didn't have the brand on it; just 12AU7 made in the USA. I put it in and was shocked at how good it sounded, I believe it sounded as good as a NOS Mullard, which costs much more.

If we judge by the audio alone, as opposed to the name, we can save a lot of money.