In summary, sometimes you feel like a nut & sometimes you don't. Please don't say I can no longer be taken seriously.
How does one get off the merry-go-round?
I'm interested in hearing from or about music lovers who have dropped out of the audio "hobby." I don't mean you were content with your system for 6 weeks. I mean, you stood pat for a long time, or--even better--you downsized...maybe got rid of your separates and got an integrated.
(I suppose if you did this, you probably aren't reading these forums any more.)
If this sounds like a cry for help, well, I dunno. Not really. I'm just curious. My thoughts have been running to things like integrated amps and small equipment racks and whatnot even as I continue to experiment and upgrade with vigor (I'm taking the room correction plunge, for example.) Just want to hear what people have to say on the subject.
---dan
(I suppose if you did this, you probably aren't reading these forums any more.)
If this sounds like a cry for help, well, I dunno. Not really. I'm just curious. My thoughts have been running to things like integrated amps and small equipment racks and whatnot even as I continue to experiment and upgrade with vigor (I'm taking the room correction plunge, for example.) Just want to hear what people have to say on the subject.
---dan
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Two simple rules ... 1. Stop ALL reading of audio gear. No more audio mags or audio internet. Switch to 0% reading and 100% listening. You still wish to read something related to audio? Then stick only to music threads - no gear threads - just music. 2. Never sit to listen critically to others' systems. Sure, go visit and have fun. But don't bring any of your recordings nor play any of the host's which you also have. Therefore, no comparisons will be made, whether conscious or subconscious. And while listening to their system, concentrate on enjoying the music, not the sound. I am very happy with my set up. BUT, I just read a thread which makes me suspect that my speakers and amps should not match up well. Is it true? Maybe, maybe not. But it got me worrying even though my system sounds great to my ears! Dang it! |
Another interesting, VERY long term conversation. My own experiences match the OP, in that I did jump ship (mixing metaphors!) for about 15 years (phew!!). But, I have learnt, and the big learning is, "everything matters". So trite, so obvious, but unfortunately, so true! My own experience is, no matter what gear you have, if you persist in taking care of smaller, and smaller details of everything that is interfering with the quality of sound, then there is a barrier that you break through. On the other side, the sound is "magic", "real", convincing, all the adjectives. The BIG problem is that you have be fussy, fussy, fussy, over and over again -- that is, there are no magic bullets. It's hard work, very frustating, some gear (but not necessarily more expensive gear!) will make it easier then others. So, my (OTT!!?) suggestion is that virtually every system out there, as they stand, can be made to sound "real". Believe it or not ... ;-) Frank |
Drubin, this is where it gets tricky ... Things that are part of the mix: * Everything I have tried or fiddled with has already been mentioned by someone already, and usually many others have to some degree taken them up. The hints are there already in websites, in forums, in lists of tweaking tips. * A lot it has to do with the mental approach. Mine is that the system, as is, is fully capable of achieving that quality of sound that I mentioned before -- the reason that it is not, is because there are weaknesses in the components and setup; there may be only a few or there may be myriads, but the technique is that you have to find each one, and knock it over, that is, eliminate the weakness. To quote a very old cliche, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and that is very, very relevant in audio systems. If you have eliminated every single weakness but one; that is, there is still one problem area remaining, then the system will still not sound right, in fact at this point it may sound considerably worse than when you started the whole exercise! Why, because at each step up to this point you have improved, shall we call it, the "transparency" of the system, so that now this one last defect is brilliantly highlighted by the rest of the system working correctly! * You're going to have to get your hand dirty, that is, dive inside the system components. Unless you are very lucky, weakness are there under the covers and you are going to have to sort them out, or get someone else to do it for you. A classic is speakers; people obsess about the cables to them and the connectors at each end; now look on the other side of the binding post inside the box, say, and you may find a miserable, loose, push on connector -- a tempered steel link of that chain mentioned above goes to one made out of elastic! * I don't replace parts with expensive, "designer" ones, only good quality conventional ones where it makes good engineering sense, e.g. Panasonic FC caps. It's fine if you want to use fancy stuff, but I haven't found them to be necessary. * What I focus on is getting the treble right, if that's right everything else falls into place. A good test, amongst many, is a typical, studio mixed rock recording where the drummer is giving the cymbals a good workout. I'm sure a lot of you will have a good laugh at this, but a perfect test CD is Status Quo's greatest hits. In my early days I took this around to dealers, etc, and every system made a complete dog's breakfast of it. When a sytem IS working decently the (ride?) cymbals being struck virtually constantly through some songs should shimmer out with perfect clarity, delicacy and sweetness, just like a real one, no matter how loud the system goes. Frequently, if things are not good, you can barely make out that the cymbals are being struck at all! Anyway, that's enough for now; depending upon the feedback and reactions, I will add more if it makes sense to ... Frank |
Drubin - Unfortunately, no. My dilemma is this: I often pine for listening to my system, but cannot due to restraints or conditions (not home, at work, at home but occupied on line with business, etc.) It is at these times I'll seek out audio related discussions on the internet in my attempt to fill the void of missing music played on my system (as there is where it sounds best for me). It never satisfies as a substitute, but its all I have so I keep lurking. Sad case. |
I can't say that I'm off, but I've laid down the gangplank by getting rid of the mono blocks and acquiring a high quality integrated. There's a special satisfaction in improving your system while simplifying it at the same time. My ultimate goal now, is a high efficiency pair of speakers and single hi-rez source to pair with the integrated. |
Macrojack, thanks for your positive response. Sorry I didn't get back earlier, and I note that other people are obviously not REALLY interested in getting better sound; strange addiction, this hobby, where a lot of people believe they are condemned to be forever on the merry-go-round, and that there is nothing that can be done about it, eh?? Obviously I'm new here, but I've been fooling around with this "madness" for 40+ years, so at least a couple of lessons have been learnt along the way. Also, being curious, I looked at one or two of your other postings and it appears you're coming from a very similar direction as myself. As an example, mentioning the high efficiency Zu speaker -- straightaway you're going to make life easier for yourself using a speaker like that; an early (in years back) foray for me was a DIY effort using Goodmans Axiom 301's, driven by an absolutely miserable nothing of an amplifier! Anyway, on with the show, so a few more thoughts: * Pretty obviously, getting digital right is hard, the ferocious arguments STILL continue, but it certainly can be done. With vinyl, you can be sloppy and get away with it, the result will still be very pleasant and musical to listen to. Digital is a hard taskmaster, you might be 99.9% there and the sound will be excrutiatingly unpleasant and fatiguing to listen to, but persevere! If you can just get that last 0.1% to fall into place, then you have magic. Think of it like very high power binoculars, if the focus is not perfectly right the result will be a messy blur; then just one little extra small twist and everything snaps into beautiful view. * Also with digital, just because you get it right for a while does not mean it will stay right during a listening session. A classic behaviour trait is that the sound may sound reasonable but not special at first, then build up to a peak of quality, and then go off, sound worse and worse the more you listen. What this means is that you still have weaknesses that haven't been sorted out. * Even nothing DAC chips can sound good but you have to warm them up, condition them thoroughly first -- this is not news for many people. What I find works fast is a test track of maximum level high frequency sine wave, say 18kHz, set on repeat for an hour or so, sort of like belting the living daylights out of the chip! Obviously, don't have the amp on, or have it at very low level; the latter does a nice job of starting to warm up the tweeter and its crossover bits. * To see where your power amp is at: put on some fairly driving rock where the drummer is having a good time on the cymbals fairly constantly through the song, at a very LOW level. If your system is half reasonable you should be able to hear the shimmer of those cymbals beautifully captured ( if you can't, go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, ...). Then slowly wind up the volume. At some point, for many/most systems, that good cymbal sound will disappear. If you can get to maximum volume with no change of the cymbal sound, congratulations! Otherwise, you have another (set of) weakness(es). No, this is not the speaker, I repeat, not the speaker that's the problem! I have heard absolutely rubbishy bits of speaker having no trouble at all peforming excellently; no, typically it's the power amp's power supply starting to collapse, behave badly, spray plenty of nasty interference into the rest of the system, etc Okay, there's a bit more to play with; so is any of this making sense to more than one person? Season's cheers, Frank |
Frank, To see where your power amp is at: put on some fairly driving rock where the drummer is having a good time on the cymbals fairly constantly through the song, at a very LOW level. If your system is half reasonable you should be able to hear the shimmer of those cymbals beautifully captured ( if you can't, go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, ...).You say that if the sound of the cymbals collapses when the volume goes up, the problem is with your amp. Where do you think the problem is if the shimmer is not so beautifully captured at low volume? |
Drubin, thanks for your response! As regards getting the cymbals to shimmer, I'm talking here, in terms of what's possible, of early Rolling Stones, say. And yes, a system CAN do that. If shimmer is not so good, double check first through the speakers at VERY, VERY low levels. I mean here at headphone levels, that is, you can stick your ear right next to the tweeter, as if it were actually one side of a set of headphones (this is actually another test I'll mention anon). If you now get shimmer the problem is deeply buried in the power amp, try another amp as a way of crosschecking, perhaps. If you still only got bad shimmer at that very low level, try decent headphones from CD player or preamp, with the power amp SWITCHED OFF, pulled out of the wall, right out of the way! If shimmer now exists, try plugging the power amp back in, switching it back on with the volume set to zero OR disconnecting the IC's, that is, nothing coming out of the speakers. Does the shimmer through the headphones go bad now? Can you see where I am coming from? Keep going back to a simpler and simpler setup, and when that's working OK try adding bits of the system back in. The trick is to isolate where the problem comes in and start working upon that ... Frank |
For my main system I just told myself enough is enough. All the buying, selling and trading just needed to stop. I then decided my second system would the one I would mess with and experiment with. I'm trying to keep it to a minimum though. It is becoming a grind to keep burning in equipment, A/Bing, and keeping track of findings. I'm reaching the point where I just want to sit back, relax and listen to music. I guess I'm half of the way off the merry-go-round. |
Hi, my name is Mike. Painful as it is, I'm an audioholic! Cheers and tears... My last purchase was yesterday and I only sell equipment when my wife makes me. She says I have enough for two systems. Isn't that great? I guess only I think so. Now I'm into room treatment. Next it will be heattubes! Oh boy! Oh wait. Uh oh. |
Knowledge is knice, but wisdom is better. Knowledge is the facts. Understanding is the ability to lift the meaning out of the facts, and Wisdom is knowing what to do next. Knowledge Understanding Wisdom Facts Meaning What to Do Next Information Principles Application Memory Reason Action Scholars Teachers Prophets Those with knowledge are able to collect, remember, and access information. They are scholars. But, it is possible to have knowledge and lack understanding and wisdom; to have the facts, but have no clue as to the meaning or what to do next. Those with understanding are able to abstract the meaning out of information. They "see through" the facts to the dynamics of what, how, and why. They are teachers. Understanding is a lens which brings the facts into crisp focus. Understanding produces "rules of thumb" or principles. Those with wisdom know which principle to apply now. Understanding without wisdom can appear contradictory. For example, "He who hesitates is lost", is a valid principle as well as: "Haste makes waste". We see the truth of both. But which should we apply next? Those with wisdom know what to do next; they know which way to go. They do the right thing. In contrast, there are many who have great knowledge and understanding, but consistently do the wrong thing. Wisdom, in this sense, is the goal, and knowledge and understanding only have eternal value as they result in wisdom, or what we end up doing. |
You gain the wisdom to know that nothing is perfect and when your enjoying your system to leave well enough alone. Their (mags) are always going to tell you something is better, and they work on the fear that something will lead to seeing god, which you learn is never the case. You can make huge changes just by improving your room which is 50% of the final sound. Going through gear like socks you will never find a system that you like because you have to work with any system to get the most enjoyment out of it. |
configuring a stereo system is hardly analogous to a merry-go-=round. i suspect that one means going around in circles and ending where you started. i doubt that once one embarks on a "spree" of replacing components, one does not recreate the sound that one began with. as far as not being satisfied with the sound one is listening to. that does not surprise me, especially if one has a criterion that one uses to evaluate a stereo system, and never satisfies that criterion, while recognizing that components are not perfect. a better analogy would be that of an artist trying to create a shade of a color, which takes a long time to achieve, or to create a color, by mixing several colors, which also takes a long time to achieve. what satisfies a listener is very subjective and if your standards have not yet been meet, you do what you think will attain your goal. i suspect that the chase is more fun than the conquest, so there is a certain pleasure, for some people, buying a component and having no idea how it will affect the sound of a stereo system--trial and error. |
Stopping is one thing... staying stopped is a whole other rabbit hole. Staying on any treadmill speaks of or hints to, deeper issues. OCD. ADD. ADHD. Or just good old ego. Or some combination of them all, in varying degrees. Pretty much, its all about priorities and perspective, if any other deeper seated conditions can be controled then one can simply see things as they are for once.. Its also about digging what you got more than what you dont got too. or being happy with your current state of affairs, and normally? That occurs with a change in perspective. I had one not long ago. Fairly dramatic series of events. it put things into a better perspective for me. So I was forced to take a little detour from foraging materials to make bricks and moarter and further the erection of my audio arrangements. Im in the state of down but not out, yet Ive no concerns, worries, or even designs on any future stereo assemblies. Apart from Im going to revisit one I made some years ago but with newer amps and speakers sometime. Maybe. Safety and security for myself, and if a family, for them, must take precedence over some hobby or pleasurable resource. If you ever stop to really give this past time a close objective once over, and ones self in the same fashion, you might see what the other 80% of the world sees. Now this following bit is Audiophile heresy, but I feel theres a good argument in there somewhere for it possibly. Having nice sounding music is a good thing. Be OK with that. Its not terribly expensive to acquire and maintain good to very good levels of audio recreation in the home. ..but if we insist on chasing the Dragon . Ferreting out the 10%, 5%, 3% or just plain different increases in performance and damn the exponentially escalating subsidies required to do so, or as well incessantly regale ourselves with dreams and schemes on all the what ifs surrounding this undertaking, we can find ourselves ever in pursuit of that which we always had to begin with . True happiness. We had it all along just like Dorothy. Of course were I Dorothy and Glenda laid that on me after all those trials and tribulations, Id have socked Glenda in the nose!! You mean I could have gone home right after I remarkably emerged from a house which had fallen out of the clouds without a scratch, and assassinated an evil Witch, made new friends, had a little dance party, met the Mayor, Coroner, and received several gifts, I could have gone home right then and you did not tell me? Happiness is always ours. Our trouble only begins when we believe it lays outside ourselves, rather than within. |
..but if we insist on chasing the Dragon . Ferreting out the 10%, 5%, 3% or just plain different increases in performance and damn the exponentially escalating subsidies required to do so, or as well incessantly regale ourselves with dreams and schemes on all the what ifs surrounding this undertaking, we can find ourselves ever in pursuit of that which we always had to begin with . Thanks Blindjim. I could have used those words of wisdom ten years ago. . |
Well I for one am a music lover, and because of the jacked-up "ATTITUDES" of some of the people that I have met I do not refer to myself as an AUDIOPHILE. I love music, music of all genres. I remember the swell in my chest as I sat in the Fox Theater with my third grade class as we viewed the original release of "The Sound Of Music". I can still feel it 47 years later. I fell in love with Julie Andrews then.I love music, that is why I am upgrading my system with as much enthusiasm as when I started 40 yeares ago. I think some people are let down after a while because they take this hobby as a means to one-up somebody else: "My system is better/more expensive than yours," and other such nonesense. I don't have a problem with some bragging rights, I mean I am extremely proud of my system's capabilities, but geesh... . I love music, I love the sound of music... and the movie is the bomb also! I think I'll stay on a while longer. |
Phd, as I said before, not everyone wants to get off. Has buying and selling cost me a good deal of money over time? Certainly, so did race cars and racing catamarans, but also I continue to be thrilled by more revealing components. I would love to be able to hear beside my present system my Infinity ServoStatics and ARC gear from the '70s. I would expect it would sound terrible in comparison. |
Remember one thing. |
Tbg, I agree, the merry-go-round is enjoyable as long as it isn't ruining you finacially. I never had the problem myself as I have sold and purchased many items on A'Gon. I think it is critical for some audiophiles to be able to sell their current gear to buy their next purchase. For others who have the desposible income anyway, more power to you. |
In addition to not visiting AGON ever again, it also helps if you have the discipline to not allow a creeping scintilla of doubt regarding your system or just one piece of it, from being able to deliver sonic bliss that quite literally makes your jaw drop because it is truer than true. If you can avoid that creeping doubt that makes you feel that changing gear is going to be truly transformative and not just different - you might just be able to get off the merry-go-round; otherwise, just enjoy the hobby and accept that the merry-go-round is at the heart of the audiophile experience. Just want to listen to music? Well,that's another story. |