Wel. I have three pairs in my listening room now and it's not helping at all. In fact, it just adds to the anxiety. But if they were each permanently situated and I could just flip a switch, preferably by remote, it could work.
A non-audiophile was over the other night and we compared two pairs of speakers. One he likened to a teenage girl and the other pair he said sounded like a woman. How can you choose just one? I mean, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes... |
Gonglee3, I thought Q was a measure of resonance of driver material -ie. metal rings and will have a high Q. Sounds like what you're talking about is suspension compliance or damping factor of the speaker. |
Cdc - I am sure you are right too - my DIY book described Q value as the spring behind a woofer - if you press on it, some feel tight, and some loose (some have more resistance) I mean by high Q, a tight strong spring. This might not be a universally agreed on audio lingo, but you get the idea, no?
On with getting off the meery go around, there was a time when I tried to captured the "live" sound - but no more. I have bought too many components chasing that rain-bow, and when I stoped to think about it, it became obvious how one system cannot do all!
Different speakers have different color to their sound, and look at the different colors many musical instruments make. Pretty soprano of female voice is again different from the mellow deep baritone. The speaker that captures the high sounds of a stradivarius (violin) sounds piercing on soprano. So don't keep pouring more and more money into this hobby - like a $70,000 turntable for instance. I am sure it's a little better than a $2000 set up, but then it still ain't the real thing...
I ended up with a few sets of speakers doing different things well, and I go back and forth depending on the music and my mood, and I seem to have cured the upgrade bug for now - but it's fun to look for new things too - I have to admit. |
Something else to consider are 2 things -
1) Room acoustics - treatments
2) Dedicated power line
Without taking care of these 2 things, you may be wasting a lot of effort and money. You are not hearing the best your gears can offer.
Another thing is to experiment with silver cables - more liquid sound. You can buy silver here on the audiogon and other places, and DIY - RCA and speaker cables.
You might want also to experiment with effects unit - I had a system that sounded too dry, and when I added Yamaha Cavit 50, and added effects, the sound became liquid and transparent. I saved the system from being sold. The unit is only midfi-ish, so I wouldn't call it hifi, but it could be what your 2nd system is lacking.
The qualities necessary for me to enjoy a system is:
1) Liquid
2) Transparency
3) Accurate color
If a system has these 3, they are listenable for me.
Of-course it would be nica to have these as well.
1) Luxurius decay
2) Dynamic (300 watts would be nice)
3) Class A or A/B amp
4) Harmonically rich
5) Deep and wide soundstage
If you know specifically what you are looking for in terms of audio-lingo, then you can get there, without constantly searching and upgrading.
I hear of many stories of an audiophile, who spends as much as a luxury car, only to do more listening on a $3000 second system, on a computer for example (low jitter). The experts tell us that if we do the homework, we can assemble a satisfying systme for a lot less, and get off the merry go around. |
I got off the merry-go-round.
I'm fifty one and have had a better than average stereo since I was eighteen.
Speakers and amps, while they are not all created equal a person can learn to enjoy what they've got.
I've been lucky enough to have never lived in an area where the quality of the electrical signal effected the sound in any major negative manner. So I have no appreciation for high dollar power cords and have also come to realize that high dollar cabling to my ears is basically a waste of money.
Too many of us have forgotten why we bought a stereo in the first place. To enjoy the music. Which is where I'm back to after a quest that included many detours, pitfalls and poor decisions.
To answer this thread's orginator question: Put together a simple system that let's you go back to just enjoying the music. |
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Art,
I have the Shure e3, and an MP3 player (not apple). It isn't powerful enough to drive the e3s.
Does the ipod have more power without using an amp because I do like the sound of the Shures |
It is a cry for help! Donate you gear and records to a worthwhile charity and find peace. Join a Buddhist monastery and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.
Or realize to tweak is humanly audiophile
and to kick back and just enjoy the music is divine. Cheers! |
I agree with Hbarrel's post as well, very well put! I am taking a hard look at what I'm trying to do and staying with a good simple system, I must conclude as well, is the ticket to get focused on the music, not the gear. |
The Shure E3 seems to me to be more efficient than other small light headphones or earbuds I've tried. I play it at around 80% of volume on the iPod and it sounds fine. However I find I don't use it often on the iPod, for two reasons:
1. I mainly use the iPod on cardio machine, where ear buds or in-the-ear phones fall out, and
2. I use standard bit rate on the iPod and the E3 is quite revealing of the limitations. With cheaper headphones and running on a cardio machine, 128 is fine.
I mostly use my E3 on the airplane to play a DVD movie or watch a DVD concert on my laptop. Awesome!
Art |
Are you a modernist/minimalist? The tone of your question reeks of it;) I think you are not alone and I know you can most definitely achieve the ridiculously resolved/detailed hi-fi sound with one. Go to the Manley Labs site and check the design/layout of Eve Anna's Stingray. Also, notice that it's actually a dual monoblock sharing an extremely high quality balance and volume control with totally seperate unbalanced inputs for left and right channels. |
The only way to escape is to ignore the audio reviewers (such as 6 moons) and their idiotic comments and do your own research. Forget ALL gear made for the home consumer and use only top grade pro and studio gear, from the top names in the sound industry. |
The only true cure is to go "Cold Turkey' turn off the stereo and leave it off for a period of at least ten years. Listen only to TV, table radio ( AM talk shows), and AM car radio. Eventually the stereo BUG you cought will run out of "food" it requires to survive and you'll be cured. |
"you can check out any time you like... but you can never leave" |
Yes ladies and gentlemen, I actually got out of audio for 4 years. It was the best thing that I ever did. No more scrounging through the latest magazine looking for the latest and greatest. No longer did I look at my depleting bank account, because I had to buy the latest and greatest. In the span of 4 years time I lowered my golf handicap into the single digits, moved into a bigger house, joined a hockey league. Then...I got married.
Now...I love my dedicated audio room. Anyone know where I can get the best bang for the buck on an power cord? |
Dgplo, yes you can find your power cord on the merry-go-round. Congradulations on your accomplishments |
my answer was a bit of sarcasm...i love to lock myself in the room -- it is the only place i can get some privacy:) |
Hi Dgplo, yes i knew you were being sarcastic but so was I with my post. |
How much is enough? How revealing, how transparent, how deep into the sound stage can one go and feel satisfied? How deep should the bass go, and how extended should the ultra-sonic, high frequencies go?
I know a guy with a stunning system (Avid, Aesthetix, Cary, Ruark), but he has kept on improving it. The Aesthetix Io got upgraded to the Signature Mk ‘something’ version and he went to bi-amping the Ruark Excaliburs instead of a single pair of $40k monoblocks and changed out all the cabling to upper end Nordost, etc. OK, it was the best system I'd heard--including at CES and industry demos at stores--before he did all of that.
Are audio geeks (myself included) like the wealthy: A few million dollars is not enough; once you have acquired or accomplished a certain level, you always want more?
I am still considering my downsize approach (see my earlier comment), but I have ended up upgrading my pre-amp (same manufacturer) and trading up to the latest version of my speakers since I wrote on this thread last. I did not follow through with my own goal. |
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Off? This has not been possible partly because new / improved stuff comes out so fast there is always the temptation to upgrade. But to slow the m-g-r I suggest:
1) Learn to read and understand specs
A lot of stuff measures so bad there is no way I even want to audition it. And for the folks who say specs don't tell the real story? Who cares, I'm trying to get off the m-g-r and crappy specs weed out a lot of stuff quick and easy. Spec's provide some grounding to reality vs. just pure opinions of mag's paid to write this stuff, emotion, or the inconsistency of our hearing when we audition in person.
2) Go DIY
If you had the best stereo would you 1) get a life (or at least a new hobby) 2) buy more music and enjoy it 3) try to keep tweaking it.
I'm guessing a lot of people would pick #3. Face it,it's a disease with no cure. Consider people who keep tweaking and make their stereo WORSE. Man, this is just sick. So
1) to fulfill the desire to keep playing around with stereo stuff
2) A hobby vs. purchased item usually involves doing something with your own two hands vs. just flipping through catalogs looking at what to buy next (coin collecting being an obvious exception unless you want the FED's breathing down your back =:-) (I'm talking DIY money in case you missed the humor).
3) If you're going to spend hours on the internet might as well put some time to productive use and make something.
4) It takes a lot of time to DIY vs. being able to go out and put a wad of $$$ down on something based on an impulse purchase. This slows you down and gives you time to think things through. Ie: I made my first speakers nearly a year ago. I'm finally getting to my new pair now - plenty of time to think things through before starting the new ones.
5) Satisfaction.
Here is my DIY stuff:
1) Speaker cables - just simple magnet wire. High purity, "perfect surface finish", thin enamel dielectric means basically air dieletric. This is even better than Audioquest electrical battery biasing to keep the dielectric lined up.
2) Interconnects - see TWL's threads here on "build this simple interconnect".
3) Single driver speakers: buy the cabinets from partsexpress.com or pay a cabinetmaker to do the box. Then finish yourself. Or you can buy kits with multiple drivers and x-overs supplied. Mine cost me $200.
4) Amp - gainclone amps like those from www.audiosector.com or scott nixon. For $200 you get an amp like the $4,800 47 Labs Gaincard. Only about 9 components to solder for the amp itself and buy an Astron linear power supply to power it up.
When I can get such good sound for $200 just can't justify spending thousands for marginal improvements and gauranteed obsolescence in a year. |
I bought some SuperAbbys w/Bailey sub, using the far-field driver, kind of put them where I thought they should go, using okay but not wacko cables, and added (sold the Pathos) a small Almarro (sold the Sophia, too), and I haven't touched anything since (4 months). I'm very pleased with the music and how I react to it, have no desire to switch out cables, reposition the speakers, or even seek more than the 4.8 watts the Almarro puts out. Everything stays where it is ... and what it is. Not going to elevate cables, islolate anything, or worry about room anomalies. Everything sounds great, no matter where I may be in the room, and I no longer have the need to question myself about this. There is so much great equipment available, and much of it doesn't cost very much. Can't have it all, nor afford to upgrade whenever doubt is allowed to surface, so it's saner to enjoy the good equipment you've got. If anything, blame the lousy CDs being sold. |
I've tried or listened to just about everything from A to Z in my 30+ yrs as an audio hobbiest. For the last 4 yrs I've stuck with a couple of Dynaco CDV2's, a couple of PAS4's, a couple ST-80 tube amps and a couple ST-160 tube amps. Using some Ev Aristocrats and Marquis. I have reached my zenith in my search for the holy grail of audio. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. No more merry-go-round for me. |
No one gets off, but some are pushed! |
Mstic2000,
Good for you. It's nice to see some example of fruition.
I tend to enjoy what I have. I'm fortunate to not want to spend time comparing equipment. I do. But I'd rather have everything set to go broken in, so I can just listen.
That keeps me from swapping or upgrading too often. |
Nrchy, I like your answer but I voluntary jumped, then I was quickly retrieved! |
Don't get a stereo that is too revealing. All you'll hear are faults in the equipment or recordings. Then upgrade is not far away. |
Phd is that the 'yo-yo effect' of the audio hobby? It's a scientific fact. |
Nrchy, definately the yo yo effect! I wonder if a mad scientist working out of a laboratory qualifies as scientific? |
I found myself more concerned with the equipment rather than enjoying the music. I was listening more to the system than the actual source material. I'm back into vinyl for now....snap, crackle, pop...lovely! |
Stop reading audio mags!!! They create a desire when one does not need to exist...the reviews are so subjective they're virtually useless...know what sound lets you listen to music, not equipment and stop when it sounds good..don't get stuck on brand names or dollars spent. |
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The first step is admitting that mega-buck cables are snake oil. |
Whoaru99, how true! Price don't dictate a cable's compatability in ones system. |
Play around and enjoy a bargain. I've just got on the merry-go-round, upgrading my Mission & Harman/Kardon kit to Spica & Adcom. Almost splurged on Martin Logans until I realized how good my new Spica TC-60s are. I'm thinking, though, that in the future it might be more fun to trade in speakers for others in the same price range or slightly above, just to experience a different set of characteristics and design decisions. I remember an article in Stereophile many years ago discussing just this approach. The reviewer said he'd rather spend his money consecutively owning several $1,000-$1,500 pairs of speakers (Spica, Thiel, Vandersteen) than splash out on something several times more expensive. His reasoning was that at about this price point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard, and each of the excellent speakers at this level offers its own unique set of pleasures. I figure I'll eventually top out at a used pair of Martin Logan Aeriuses for $1,200. But, I got an Adcom GFP-555, two Adcom GFA-5200s, a pair of Spica TC-60s and a Mission 700as subwoofer for a grand total of $1,000. Knowing I got 'em for beer money makes 'em sound better. I sit there thinking, "Well, the dynamics are a little compressed, and there's no top-end sparkle, but imaging is great, and for $1,000 this sounds GOOD!" |
Intuitive Design Summits. |
I am grateful to be able to read these posts and totally understand where each and everyone of you is coming from. As I read through these posts at one point or another I swear I could have written them all myself. This is a hobby, we do love music but oftentimes confuse this with power/equipment/status/acceptance...etc but in the end its still just you and your music.
I went through 2 cycles of upgrades /downgrades... THis is a crazy hobby but I love it.
To answer the question:
Not that I do this, but you could have your wife take over the bank account balancing. You could soon realize how foolish this silly hobby truly is ;)
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Don't go for the golden ring. Be happy with "good enough". It doesn't matter how much you spend, no system is perfect.
It's one thing to go through many different systems to determine your preference in sound, but eventually you will have to accept less than perfection with whatever you own, IMHO. |
Cdc, thats very well said. I think there are alot of other excellent statements above & by the way things look on Agon, many are taking this advice. |
"way things look on Agon, many are taking this advice".
Scary thing, this internet. Largely uncensored flow of ideas outside the control of "the industry". |
I am still searching for that workable integrated amp. So far nothing has given me *enough* satisfaction (do not expect equal performance) for me to replace my pre/pwr combo.
I did replace an Arcici S-1 Suspense Rack with a much shorter wooden rack from QS&D. It isn't a downsize in the quantity of gear in the room, but the smaller rack does make the equipment seem less imposing and more "accessible" some how. It's pretty lame to even bring this up, because I really did intend to downsize the gear, but the smaller rack has helped the room-gear proportions. |
I find lack up funds help. |
For me, achieviving what one's definition of correct tonal balance is the key to long-term happines w/a system. What is the easiest, most cost-effective way to achieve that? High quality tone controls/EQs. |
Bojack, Do you have a high quality EQ recommendation?
I toyed around with the tone controls of the MacIntosh 6500 integrated amp (on loan for audition) and found that they just mucked up the sound further.
A good EQ will largely avoid this effect, right? |
Find a system that sounds really good for a little money. Then realize to get slightly better sound would cost a small fortune.
After all, meeting personal preference is more the goal than finding "The Absolute Sound" IMHO. |
it is very simple. buy a decent fm radio and listen.
you may be surprised how enjoyable it is. you may realize that you don't need a "stereo" to enjoy music. |
Mrtennis, a table top radio? How about an IPOD? |
1) enjoy what you have
2) stop visiting the internet sites including audiogon (if this makes it through it will be a miracle)
3) throw away useless piles of audio rags
4) take a ~2 week break on listening to music.
I think 2 and 3 are more important than people realize. |
