Higher End DACs

@djones51i hate to be one to argue with the great, all-knowing BO but....

there are no winners here, anymore!

What do we win?

When I read the stories over here it proves that people are all living under a rock. It proves that trial&error has created audio blindness. In the US there are still many people who still use and prefer a CD-player over any network player.

Almost all audio shows prove that many systems reveal a very limited level of emotion. This has 100% nothing to do with any kind of silly personal taste. Because it is all based on 100% facts. The facts show that they lack different aspects of sound. This is why they all are only able to create a low level of emotion during playback.

With many DACS and network players, we all hear the same limitations and lack of emotion. And again it is all based on facts. Every time a new client brings in a DAC, CD-player or network player, it is insane how much is missing of each recording we play.

Each individual audio product owns aspects of sound (DNA) and most miss different aspects of sound. This also counts for sources and DACS. With our modified Lumin network players it is very easy to outperform them. Based on the fact that we can reveal all aspects of sound. And second all individual aspects of sound we can also play at a higher level and quality.

In 2013 I had contact with a person who creates DACS and sources for manufacturers. He was the first who explained to me that the USB protocol never should have been chosen. Because he said; you will lose diversity (layering) in sound. And all our tests proved this as well.

But even now in 2020, it is still the same story how much you loose in diversity (layering) in sound even with most DACS. It is a sad thing to see how poorly audio is being carried out.

We work a lot together with a company who is the biggest audio technical service center in the Benelux (the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg). They do the technical support of Pass labs, Mark Levenson, Lumin, McIntosh, Krell, Marantz and many more)

The owner and me we talk to each other frequently on the phone. He also is concerned about the quality in parts manufacturers use inside their products. Due to the decreasing audio market manufacturers use cheaper parts almost every single year.

This is one of the reasons why we started to modify. And it proves how easy you can bring products to a superior level. But we go a lot further than that alone. We also imply parts who reduces electro-smog and high-frequent noise. This also makes a huge improvement. Besides this, we also want to create new (higher) levels in audio.

Now we can easily all people experience how much more information we can reveal on every single recording. Audio is all about shootout and sound and stage. And in this part, we rule and outperform.

MAY THE BEST WIN!

@audiotroy,

Dave,
I don’t doubt your experience of differences in sound quality - perhaps your DACs are intolerant of jitter. Yes,Toslink is synchronous and maxed at 192/24 but apart from that its the same as any other digital transport...from the motherboard, from a custom board, etc. If there was any digital error in the stream you would be hearing dropouts, pops and clicks. So, apart from their innate bandwidth and protocol differences, toslink, coax, USB, AES all gets the bitstream to the DAC with 100% fidelity ...at least to Chord DACs.
My comments regarding RF noise and Toslink was in the context of this thread (High End DACs) as a means to get data from source to my chord DAC without any conducted RF noise, which i am convinced is the big elephant in the room.
I was just at CanJan, I should have taken the extra day to come see you. I have other NYC trips planned soon, ive messaged you.
Dan

Dmance, sorry no. Toslink is the least preferable way to get a digital signal into a dac, this doesn't validate your testing.

Toslink has limited bandwidth and doesn't provide for asyncronous data transfer which enables the dac to control clocking other rather than the transport. 

Asyncronous data transfer also sounds the best hence most high end dacs employ this technique. 

Also Toslink means you are taking your data from its native electrical form on the motherboard, converting to optical and then reconverting it back to an electrical signal.

Also Toslink does not allow for much higher sampling rates or DSD.

Lastly Baestis music servers range from a few thousand to very expensive units, in our tests a $16k Baetis got bettered by a $4k Innous server which sounded dramatically better. 

The less expensive Baetis servers may sound better than your two other units but if you were using Toslink from a Baetis you didn't hear the Baetis which sounds way better through its custom AES/EBU board which you didn't use, optical from a Baetis is going directly from the native motherboard which would not sound any better than a rasperby Pi or Nuc.

If you would like to prove your claims please come down to our shop where we have multiple servers and dacs on display.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Ok BOomer.

@audiotroy 

I have Chord Hugo TT2 to headphones (or direct to Voxativs) isolated from AC noise on a battery and Toslink signal input. With such a configuration, nothing upstream should make a sonic difference, right?  The TT2 is impervious to input jitter, so why does a server make a difference? Please don't claim that that bits are 'better' in any way ...yet in open air any upstream changes can sound different, why?  If a switch or power supply or cable changes the sound but the bits are the same going into the DAC, what else could account for this? Hint: its all about RF noise.

My test server was a Baetis (circa 2016), my NUC is a 5i5RYK, my Pi has a HifiBerry Digi+ module.  My test equipment is my ears combined with a SignalHound BB60c to correlate measured RF noise in the signal and proximate to the DAC.

Dmance your findings seem strange, first you don't list any of the components you are testing. 

Second you have only optical going in or out is that an optical cable from the dac to the server? Or some ethernet to optical and optical back to ethernet device?

Also why would you expect there to be an audible difference between a Rasbery Pi or a Nuc, both of these should sound the same. The issue is which is the audiophile server that you used and how was it compared? 

Just because you deem something to be a "audiophile server" doesn't mean it really is, the exact test conditions of what you used and how you used it may shed some light that a: you are 100% correct and it is all RFI/EMI that we are hearing as the cultprits in helping create different sounds out of a dac or

b. Your testing methodology of conclusions are wrong, what was the level of the listening gear being used to test the sonic differences? If so how were you able to then 100% shield any output cable from allowing back in emi/rfi and therefore invalidating your findings?

Just because you have access to a really big faraday cage doesn't mean your findings are correct.

Just food for thought.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@lalitk
Thanks. I will (gingerly) post on that thread. I am going to turn this industry on its head so i need to be careful. The issue of RF noise (basically any EM energy above the audio band) is grossly under-appreciated as being detrimental to ultimate sound from a DAC. There is so much misinformation about tweaks to the upstream digital chain. Servers, cables, power supplies, switches, reclockers, etc. - all do nothing to the fidelity of the digital stream to the DAC. It’s always 100% perfect. The bugaboo of jitter is a 1990’s issue - modern DACs are impervious with double-buffers and separately clocked outputs.
It may be incredulous to many (most) that digital electronics radiate RF noise across meters of open air or via galvanic signal paths or AC mains to enter a DAC to affect the final D/A stage through perturbations in clocking or reference voltages. So all those tweaks ...all they do is change the radiated emissions profile; modulating the RF correlation to become manifest as subtle deviations in a DACs output waveform timing and amplitude: hence staging, timbre, detail.
I wanted a solution not a partial fix so I solved this for myself (and its a commercial Audiowise product) by putting my entire digital chain inside an RF isolation chamber (a 90dB attenuation Faraday cage) with only optical allowed in/out. Bingo - zero audible difference between a Raspberry Pi, an Intel NUC or an ’audiophile’ server. No difference between a $5 USB cable or a $500 one. No difference between using a factory switch-mode power supply or a $1500 LPS. When all these tweaks are contained inside a RF chamber, no RF noise escapes and the DAC always sounds its best (as it was designed).

@dmance,

Thanks for chiming in...some of us are well aware of the benefits of isolating RF noise from the streamer. It has been discussed in the following thread to an extent, 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/network-switches

Feel free to add your feedback there or start a new thread. I think this very topic of noise isolation deserves a dedicated thread and we can possibly learn and educate ourselves from your experience.

RF isolation is needed to determine DAC differences. That is, RF noise in signal, power or radiated thru free air affects how a DAC sounds. 
Regards xtreme servers ...well if the output is optical and the server is 100% RF isolated from the DAC, they sound the same as a $100 raspberry Pi. Exact same.
Im in the Toronto area and able to plainly demonstrate this.

Thanks for righting the ship folks. And +1 on the Star trek reference kren.

@david_ten 

thanks for the real world check on format and usage - appreciate it!

@audiotroy 

Sorry, i missed one of your recent replies.  Thank you for your reminder about T+A intention for the MQA update.

just out of curiosity - have they definitively confirmed it is coming?  Another poster I think had provided an email reply from them that I thought made it sound more vague (I will have to look back and see).

also, a general question - are software updates always limited to the first MQA unfold only and if you want the subsequent full MQA unfolding it would require a hardware upgrade? Or does the ability of a software upgrade to give a full MQA compatibility depend on the DAC implementation?

Does T+A’s implementation allow for full MQA thru just a software upgrade?

@ufguy73 I stream both Tidal and Qobuz. My current DAC does not decode the second MQA ’unfold.’

I listen, daily, to a number of MQA tracks where Roon performs the first unfold... HOWEVER, I AM NOT picky in terms of preferring MQA coded over non-MQA files in Tidal  OR  where Tidal offers MQA and a higher resolution via the first unfold over a "lower resolution" file via Qobuz.

My answer, at the simplest level: nice to have but far from necessary. That, again, is from a daily listening perspective.

It is a total non-factor in terms of component choice as there are far more important considerations (for me).

This may serve as an analogy, though not a perfect one:

I’m car shopping. For me, it would be akin to rejecting a choice in a car because I’m looking for a specific tread pattern and that car’s stock tires don’t offer it.

ufguy73 thanks for starting this really interesting thread
I believe two pages ago you were thinking in the $15k range for DAC, if still so, have you considered the Simaudio 780d v2?  It handles virtually all formats including MQA and does have a streamer built in to get up and running and bypass if you like (it is really 90% DAC). Not sure compatibility with Mac but there is a dealer in the bay area that carries both lines.  
Anyway, thanks for sharing your journey with us.

@david_ten 

thanks for giving me an oasis in the deluge of off-topic replies since I last checked in!

could you share a little more behind your thought process of not considering MQA limitations in your decisioning?  Is it the relative lack of content?  The uncertainty about its scalable future?  The inconsistency of its advancement over other high resolution formats?

thank you!

Bo, Kenjit and Technodude could sure get alot accomplished if only they would team up...hey, maybe they are one in the same!

The one who creates the best sound will always be the best in audio. In the end, each individual person will choose for that product or system that reveals and creates the highest level of emotion and realism. This is how human emotion works.

You can sell as many brands and products as you want. When you forget most details in sound, you will always create a limited level in the end result.

Thank you David Ten for re steering the conversation.

The OP should try to listen to whatever product or products that work for him. 

whatever diminished relevance this thread was clinging to

@mikelavigne   hopefully this meets your definition of diminished relevance... Love It!  : )

OP:  unless you have budgetary constraints, my advice is to stick to the initial intent of your thread. In other words, push yourself.

It is well worth the spend irrespective of brand chosen.

In that vein, I recommend the Rossini over the Bartok. The differences and superiority were clear in my extended audition. The Rossini also offers more if you add additional dCS chassis/ boxes.

If you can get MSB to loan one of their solutions, go for it. Likewise for other brands.

Finally, I would not let MQA drive a choice. Doing so is sub - TREE. I'll go further and say it's GRASS...and not the kind that's fun to get lost in. [Note: this is coming from someone who appreciates MQA]

Get above the treeline. Evaluate wholistically. 

Really Bo we have hundreds of satisfied clients, it is totally possible that we have one disgruntled NYC client, in fact we probably know exactly who you are talking about he has had issues with the way we present and or talk to clients at shows, and has never purchased anything from us.

Okay you got us, how we work with clients:

1: identify through a process of asking questions what a suitable product or product might be, that fits the clients budget,musical tastes, matching components.

2: play the product or products that might work for a client

3: if required lend out said product to verify that the product is working to the clients satisfaction

4: scan the market for new and emerging products and technlogies approach company and get a display sample to test vs our other products.

5: if product is better than move into that product discard original.


We don’t modify anything nor do we endorse doing anything that would invalidate a companies warranty or make the product impossible to resell or service by anyone else other than a dealer such as you or us.

Bo lack of ignorance, you must be joking please show us some pictures of your shop and list your experiences want to go toe to toe?

We sell not just Lumin but Innous, Baetis, Bricasti, T+A, Naim, Aqua Hifi.Mytek, Ifi, Light Harmonic

in the past sold Emm Labs and Esoteric as well as Audio Aero, Remiyo, AMR and many many others. 

Do you honestly think that you know more about audio then teams of engineers from these companies?

We do not nor would claim to ever know more than these companies teams of engineers, in the case of T+A they have 12 full time engineers and two with PHD’s, Lumin is run by broacast engineers.

Do you have a PHD in electrical engineering or digital circuit design or software? If so please list your accreditions?

No Bo we would never claim to know more than a trained engineer we like you listen and compare products and know and look at ways of maximizing a product, as mentoned these include footers, grounding, power cords and conditioners, and other such tweeks.

Modifying a product means zero warranty and if that works for your clients then good for you and for them if they are willing to take those risks.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@cleeds 
you need to say this to the others!!

Hey @bo1972 ...
This thread is: "Higher End DACs "

Could you please try to keep your posts on topic?

You want facts

AudioFacts is an official & respected dealer of Lumïn network players. As official & exclusive Lumïn distributor for the Dutch territory we support them with 24 months warrantee on all Lumïn products. The modified products however, we only support warrantee on the original parts. AudioFacts is responsible for all the parts which they have changed. On their part they give a 24-month warrantee on these modified parts, as this is their responsibility.

Best regards,

Penhold b.v.
Jan Legel - Sales & marketing director
Poppenbouwing 33
NL-4191 NZ Geldermalsen
Phone: +31 (0) 345 588060
Mobile: +31 (0) 6 51511868

Visit our website: www.lookenlisten.nl

You will find the truth on each recording. Each audio product has its own DNA. This means the aspects of sound it can reveal and which aspects it does not own and also can not reveal.

Humans can perceive sound in a 3-dimensional perspective. But.....when you judge all different audio products on this particular aspect, you will find that most are 2-dimensional. 

So what is 2-dimensional?

This means that all voices and instruments are almost standing one the same/one line. In our world, 2-dimensional is all products who can reveal 1 meter of stage depth max.

When you are at home and listening to your system. You hear all different aspects (DNA) of all different parts in your system together.

And the influence by:

- the acoustic
- electro-smog
- high-frequency noise
- magnetism

On your stage and sound. There are even more like the level of humidity. But I will keep it a little bit more simple. 

When you compare digital sources and DACS with each other the differences are huge. We select each product and each part we use for modification by Tru-Fi.

We first want to know which aspects of sound it can reveal and how these individual aspects of sound are being displayed.

So what is the difference when a source and audio system can create a huge 3-dimensional holographic stage?

During live classical acoustic concerts, I learned how small and direct voices and instruments are. And what depth does to voices and instruments.

When you listen to music in a real 3-dimensional stage the experience of the same music becomes a totally different experience.

When voices get what we call a 3D shape (delimitation in space) and become free in space, people describe it as closer and more intense.

We go even further in 3D level, we also create diversity in height. When an audio system can reveal even all the differences in height of voices and instruments music becomes an even more intense experience.

Diversity in height is a lot more difficult to create than only stage depth and width. We also choose products and parts who can reveal diversity in height.

In a real High-End system, you can hear all voices and instruments being played in a physical and tangible intimate focus of voices and instruments. Where you can hear the exact height of for example a Trumpet (often at 1.4 meters) and Hi-hats are even higher displayed.

We made huge improvements also in the layering in sound. We use different songs of a voice or even a trumpet to show how much more layering and details it can reveal by our modified Lumin players compared to any other source or DAC.

whatever diminished relevance this thread was clinging to, bo has extinguished.

and i’ll never get the 90 seconds it took to write my last response back.

how would anyone know that bo’s version of the ‘truth’ musically is the same as mine or others? another thing about his soundstaging comments. I have no studio recording experience but how does one create a soundstage from a studio recording? I can’t figure that out. good is just good and most of us know it when we hear it.. doesn’t require a sermon to understand. fwiw

Shame that this thread has been taken over by kenjit the speaker engineer's digital clone

Audio will always be chosen on emotion. This is exactly where you can make a huge difference compared to all others. My clients and the people who know me who work in audio call me an extreme perfectionist. But in my world, it is 100% normal. I've been like this I was a child. I only call myself; different. 

Most people don't like the real truth. My clients accepted that trial&error has no foundation at all and that it is impossible to understand what you do and change. But there are many people who will keep on doing audio by trial&error until they stop. 

Yo, what we talkin’ ’bout ’gain? (sorry, stepped away for couple days, eeks)

Those DAC demos can't come soon enough!!!  HURRY!!  We're losin' her, Captain!!

Allow me to remind you, gentle readers, claiming to be a perfectionist is just another logical fallacy. It’s along the same lines as I’m a PhD in EE or I’ve been an audiophile for 40 years. You might as well start quoting Shakespeare and Einstein and posting links to How Electricity Works. I haven’t met too many audiophiles, by that I mean real audiophiles, not the fake ones, who didn’t consider themselves perfectionists. Perfectionism and obsessive compulsive disorder kind of go hand in glove you know.

Hahahahahahahaha...Audiogon people are making it personal again. They become like little children again.

When you play bought music from a modified music server the amount of data of the same song is already a lot bigger than the amount of data when you stream the song by Tidal and Qobuz.

People are often amazed by the huge differences. The unknown in audio is so much bigger than people can even imagine. You need to hear it yourself to understand how huge the differences are.

We sell audio by a shootout, so people can always compare it themselves. You don’t need a university degree to hear and understand the differences.

Oh, and I highly doubt your modified switch does anything at all. To prove it does send one to ASR and have an independent test on the thing.

You said that music downloaded is 70% better than streaming, and streaming is for children in the real world where the rest of us live that equates to saying streaming sucks. You also said you buy 90% of your music from this same streaming service. To us losers you come across as an idiot but hey that's  just a losers opinion don't  take it personal. 

The thing I love most about audio is the fact that the most emotional and intense sound and the stage will always be preferred. We always ask people to bring in their own music they know well.

People can compare whatever they would like to hear and compare with another product. When you would start to read about human emotion, you would understand why each audio system that can reveal all aspects of sound always will be chosen.

I didn't say it sucks, It is of a much lower level compared to when you play the same music from a modified music server. Audio is all about shootout. And the sound and stage will always show the truth.

Never put words in my mouth what I didn't say. I would suggest; read better.

Most people think and believe that when you stream music it will be of the same quality compared to when you play it from a modified music server. But that is far from true. Most of our clients play music from their modified Lumin L1 and stream music from Qobuz. And they buy the albums and songs they really like.

The reason why we sold so many modified Lumin L1 music servers is based on the fact that it is so much better than just streaming it by Tidal or Qobuz. People have no idea how much more details and layers you can find on each recording.

This is why we work by Tru-Fi (True Fidelity) so people get access to all aspects of sound. Music is emotion and emotion is the only key to success in audio. So it becomes obvious why we only work by all aspects of sound.

I'm sure everything he says is true, can't you tell?

“No, I say what I want to say!!”

Bo, how much additional would it cost the consumer when configuring a system should they choose to opt out of your sermons? Whatever the cost I can imagine that might become your number one seller. 

Bo is rambling nonsense, he claims only losers stream music yet sells modified network switch which supposedly brings streaming to a new level. What a new level for losers who stream? He also claims streaming High Resolution files from Qobuz sucks yet the same file downloaded is sonic bliss. I was bored so I read the Novellas and learned Bo is a nut.

No, I say what I want to say!!

We all live in a world where most people think and believe that it is all about money. The money will never guarantee you anything in audio.  Since I have different clients from the US I am amazed by how different we work with people.  I work for my clients. I always put myself at last. Because my father taught me that life is not about me. But what I can do for others.

I do not compete against consumers, we are there to protect them. I think it is normal to take your profession seriously. So spending thousands of hours in research is normal when you want to take your job seriously. We feel very responsible for all our clients independently.

Bo, do you get paid by the word?

I would say: ask all our clients?

We have so much more respect for them than any other audio company. And we will let them tell their own stories soon. I work in audio over 21 years of time. I have met hundreds of people at home. I can say this; there is not a lot of respect for these people.

Most companies only work for their own greed. You don't even know me. The reason why I spend thousands of hours in research in over 21 years if time is based on the fact that I want to found a foundation for people who have nothing.

In our world, our customers come first. We put ourselves always as last. It is our responsibility that they get the best advice for the money they spend. Maybe other audio companies don't like me. I would advise; WORK HARDER!

What he says about the Lumin is probably true....Because what he says about audio is my own experience....

But « An extreme perfectionist always wants to win. 2nd place and less is for all born losers in this world. And has no meaning in my world» this is too much for me...

And by the way i already own this "emotional" 3-d immersive musical natural timbre experience with my "loser" audio system....With low cost methods all homemade with few bucks elements I modified myself...I doubt that his zeal to sell something will listen to other possibilities that the possibilities that are already in his world...Anyway I am with the losers of the world, particularly in audio...I want that all people know that it is possible to afford music at very low costs... My best....

" I only enjoy an illusion of my own making"  Groucho Marx

bo1972...you are unbearably arrogant for no discernible reason. humility is something you might try if you want people to listen to you.
i cannot imagine a worse experience than auditioning gear with you. 

At this moment I do not advise any DAC separately. Because of our modified Lumin players outperform them all easily.

When we modify a Lumin and use a modified power supply, it surpasses all DACS in dynamics, layering, and details. We also outperform them in a much bigger holographic 3-dimensional stage. And a superior individual focus of voices and instruments.

We always ask new clients to bring in their digital source or DAC. We are so far ahead of everyone that it will never become an honest comparison. Even when we play the first song they know our set-up is far superior. An extreme perfectionist always wants to win. 2nd place and less is for all born losers in this world. And has no meaning in my world

People have no idea what the DNA is of most products. Most network players and DACS own a 2D stage DNA. It doesn’t matter which cables you will connect, it still will be 2-dimensional. We can not even change that by modifications.

When manufacturers already made the wrong decisions, consumers can never solve them. We create new levels of quality in all different price ranges. Every modification must have no competition. This means that for the costs it is not possible to create the same level in quality by using the money differently.

Our modified Lumin X1 makes a Lumin X1 out of a box come from another planet and of another league. Perfectionism is also a choice in life. I have a client from Austria and he bought in 2019 a Lumin D2 with an AudioFacts Pro modification (1098 euro) and a modified Sbooster 489 euro together for 3849 euros.

He is a member of an audio club in his country. There were 2 people in his audio club who had a streamer combination of 13000 and 14000 euro. They were seen as the reference players of the audio club. But when he took his modified Lumin D2 and modified Sbooster he outperformed the 13000 and 14000 euro set-ups.

We see it as our task and responsibility to create new standards in audio for prices people can afford. We can think and work so much more precisely thanks to thousands of hours in research. Audio is so complex and most people forgot to learn most aspects who also influence sound&stage.

I will have the Bartok for tests soon. I am looking for hiend streamer not particularly for dac but...
I am using Dave with Blu. What a nonsense to use Dave with M-scaller. M-scaller is for TT2, Hugo2 maybe... but Dave? Suffice to say that Dave is another level device when used with Blu.
I was asking Lumin about x1 limited only to streaming functions but they said it is a corporate secret (next products). Man, most of the worlds you red in previous posts are crap. Stop asking and start listening for yourself. You can change voice characteristic of you system with cables only. Starting from power ones. When you start to talk about HiEnd use ears and brain and forgot about other fantasy stories. Bartok this, Lumin that... such stupid crap. Thrust your ears first.

I buy sometimes music over here: 

https://www.highresaudio.com/en/site/index

Many of the MQA recordings are recorded too loud and miss a lot of layering in sound. 

I am not interested in streaming, this is in my world only made for children. Not even when they paid me 100 euro each day I would start to stream by Tidal or Qobuz.

I have to say that I buy over 90% of all my music at Qobuz. I am not that impressed by MQA, to be honest. I own some DSD512 recordings, this is from another planet that makes MQA even laughable. I am an extreme perfectionist and only the best is good enough for me. 2nd best and less is only made for the born losers on this planet.

Why you would give your clients less than the best possible? We want our clients to get the best quality for their hard-earned money. We take care of all our clients independently. I don't do this for money, but to help people to get a Tru-Fi system.

I make all incomplete (lacking one or more aspects of sound) systems complete by implying the aspects of sound which are missing. Because this is the only option to make people happy with their system. So they will want to use it every single day!